Like Tree82Likes

Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

  1. #801
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Why shouldn't firearms have the same documentation required. I have the receipts for my current home appliances as well.
    But if there is an insurance claim, all you need to do is provide the serial number for the units. Why does it have to be different for firearms? If it is stolen or damaged, I just need to provide the serial number. I will help you out, it doesn't need to be any different. As long as the owner maintains a record of their belongings, there is no reason for any further proof of ownership.

    As to your dad's car, nothing will be done. What happens when you drive a rental? It is not registered to you. What if you borrow a car from your neighbor? Nothing. - And again, this does nothing to add to the discussion of firearms and universal background checks. You claim all of this about vehicles, but when was the last time you had a background check run to buy a car? You don't even need to show a driver's license unless you are the one driving it off the lot. So your own comparison shows the holes in your theory.

  2. #802
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    What have you offered this debate in the form of constructive ideas that doesn't involve more laws, rules, regulation, bans, hardship, or restrictions on the law abiding gun owner?
    Regulations that utilized in many other aspects of our lives.

    Yet somehow firearms should be exempt from any type of review.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  3. #803
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Regulations that utilized in many other aspects of our lives.

    Yet somehow firearms should be exempt from any type of review.
    Name me a single other regulation that is solely directed at the legal, law abiding citizen. Don't worry, I'll wait.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  4. #804
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    But if there is an insurance claim, all you need to do is provide the serial number for the units. Why does it have to be different for firearms? If it is stolen or damaged, I just need to provide the serial number. I will help you out, it doesn't need to be any different. As long as the owner maintains a record of their belongings, there is no reason for any further proof of ownership.
    You should pass that on to the folks in New Orleans.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    As to your dad's car, nothing will be done. What happens when you drive a rental? It is not registered to you. What if you borrow a car from your neighbor? Nothing. - And again, this does nothing to add to the discussion of firearms and universal background checks. You claim all of this about vehicles, but when was the last time you had a background check run to buy a car? You don't even need to show a driver's license unless you are the one driving it off the lot. So your own comparison shows the holes in your theory.
    A rental is registered to the agency that rented it.

    You get caught driving an unregistered vehicle and there is a good chance it will get impounded.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #805
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You should pass that on to the folks in New Orleans.
    Those that had this can get their firearms back. Look into it.

    A rental is registered to the agency that rented it.
    So as long as the gun is registered, it doesn't matter to whom, you are ok with it, good to know. You don't care who the gun is registered to, just so long as the government has a list of what is out there.

    You get caught driving an unregistered vehicle and there is a good chance it will get impounded.
    Again, you don't care if there was a background check to get one, just so long as it is registered. Thank you for clarifying your position in this discussion. You want all guns registered, but a background check is not necessary. Thank you for sidetracking us on the car line of thought so that we could discern your real intentions on the gun control topic.

  6. #806
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    So as long as the gun is registered, it doesn't matter to whom, you are ok with it, good to know. You don't care who the gun is registered to, just so long as the government has a list of what is out there.
    Does the government have the responsibility of ensuring you are the legal owner of the cars you own? Why should it be any different for firearms?

    When a gun is stolen and used in a crime guess who the law enforcement folks look at first. The onus of reporting it stolen is on the legal owner.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #807
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,348

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Does the government have the responsibility of ensuring you are the legal owner of the cars you own? Why should it be any different for firearms?

    When a gun is stolen and used in a crime guess who the law enforcement folks look at first. The onus of reporting it stolen is on the legal owner.
    One of the many reasons that Virginia is a great state to live in - no firearms registry.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  8. #808
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Does the government have the responsibility of ensuring you are the legal owner of the cars you own? Why should it be any different for firearms?
    No, only that you are paying the required taxes. Anything else would be possession of stolen property. Already a law on the books.
    When a gun is stolen and used in a crime guess who the law enforcement folks look at first. The onus of reporting it stolen is on the legal owner.
    Already a law. Again, is it lack of enforcement on current laws?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  9. #809
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    You know as well as I do, oh wait, I am assuming, we all know what that is. But I degrees. The reason for my vehicle registration is nothing more than a way for the government to collect a yearly tax on it. Period.
    Next..
    .. Next they (the liberals) will want to collect a tax, let's call it a "Firearm Ownership Tax", when you must register it.

    So only those that can afford the tax can afford to own weapons.

    A form of gun control by another name.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-12-2014 at 05:21 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #810
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    So am I getting the gist of people's feelings...stricter punishment for the crime committed...but nothing to try and deter the crime beforehand?

    Is this belief based on the assumption that a criminal (who already knows they are breaking laws and will be punished for it if caught) will be less willing to break the law due to fear of stricter punishment?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #811
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So am I getting the gist of people's feelings...stricter punishment for the crime committed...but nothing to try and deter the crime beforehand?

    Is this belief based on the assumption that a criminal (who already knows they are breaking laws and will be punished for it if caught) will be less willing to break the law due to fear of stricter punishment?
    Not at all.

    The problem is that universal background checks will do little to prevent crime as ..... the folks who are going to use the guns legally and responsibly are the ones who will be buying guns legally, and hence, going through the background checks.

    Those who are going to use the guns illegally for committing crimes will not be acquiring weapons thorough legal means, hence they will not be exposed to universal background checks.

    Putting those in jail for a determined period of time will take them off the street and not allow them to repeat offend. Arresting those who attempt to acquire guns illegally and putting them away fro a determined period. And enforcing current laws regarding illegal gun possession and locking them away for a determined period of time.

    There is much that can be done on those using weapons to commit crimes and those illegally possessing weapons that will reduce crime.

    Quite frankly, I have very little concern for the very rare mass shooting incidents. it's routine day to day crime that concerns me.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #812
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So am I getting the gist of people's feelings...stricter punishment for the crime committed...but nothing to try and deter the crime beforehand?

    Is this belief based on the assumption that a criminal (who already knows they are breaking laws and will be punished for it if caught) will be less willing to break the law due to fear of stricter punishment?
    Well I'm glad you brought that up. Yes, we in Minnesota are working on a clairvoyant police program. Aimed squarely at detering crime before it start.
    As far as your assumption, it will definitely reduce the repeat offenders. Or the other plan is to disarm the legal gun populace and watch violent crime skyrocket. As proven out in every country that has done just that.

  13. #813
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    I suggest a universal form filled out at every single firearms transaction, asking one simple question:
    Do you plan on using this gun you are about to purchase to commit a crime?
    If they check no, and then use their gun to commit a crime, then they'll get it, I'm telling you!! I'm talking a really long time out and no TV!!
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 02-12-2014 at 08:24 PM.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  14. #814
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Well I'm glad you brought that up. Yes, we in Minnesota are working on a clairvoyant police program. Aimed squarely at detering crime before it start.
    As far as your assumption, it will definitely reduce the repeat offenders. Or the other plan is to disarm the legal gun populace and watch violent crime skyrocket. As proven out in every country that has done just that.
    Universal background checks won't disarm the populace. So you shouldn't have a problem with it.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  15. #815
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Universal background checks won't disarm the populace. So you shouldn't have a problem with it.
    We have background checks now. But yet can't maintain a national criminal data base up to keep it effective.
    We have no way to include mental health as part of a background check unless we violate HIPPA.
    We have no way to ensure the bad guys whom want to use their ill gotten firearms for nefarious acts will even submit to a background check.
    Tell me again how this universal background check is going to work again?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  16. #816
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    We have background checks now. But yet can't maintain a national criminal data base up to keep it effective.
    We have no way to include mental health as part of a background check unless we violate HIPPA.
    We have no way to ensure the bad guys whom want to use their ill gotten firearms for nefarious acts will even submit to a background check.
    Tell me again how this universal background check is going to work again?
    We can agree there are some details that need to be addressed. I've never stated otherwise.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  17. #817
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    We have an update concerning the Minnesota clairvoyant police program. They may have just recorded their first crime interruption.
    In the early morning hours yesterday, 2 young, armed ruffians attempted to hold up the local donut shop, but soon found themselves in the steely clutches of the 37 officers enjoying their morning coffee and donut. Now since only 2 of the officers in attendance where part of the program, there is some debate concerning whether it was a foresight by a member of the program. Or just dumb luck there just happened to be officers at the donut shop that morning.
    I will keep you updated.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  18. #818
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    They all have deeds and titles. You probably should have used a relative example, say a welder, or a TV.
    Next....
    Yes they have deeds and titles. Why? Because the law says so. So why can't there be a law that requires guns to be titled?

  19. #819
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    You do not need to have proof that you own your car, boat, camper, or even home. If it was paid for with cash, and purchased solely for use on private land and will not be used on public roads or waterways, boats, cars, campers, etc. do not need to be registered.

    Your home does not have to be registered. If you own land, it has to be recorded to prove ownership, but there is nothing stating that a house has to be "registered". Land only needs to be recorded if ownership is to be transferred and so that a property tax can be levied.

    But once again, you are trying to bypass the fact that you cannot point to proof positive that universal background checks will not lead to national registry and confiscation. If you get in touch with your representatives you will find that in the passage of a law, if a plausible negative effect is brought up, it must either be amended to address the problem, proven that the negative effect will only effect a small minority of the population covered by the legislation, provide a pathway for appeal, or it will have to be dropped and completely re-written.

    Why haven't universal checks been legislated into effect?
    - Because those pushing for them want a registry.
    - Because it cannot be shown where universal checks would be any more effective than current checks.
    - Because it has been shown that current laws are not being enforced, so creating stricter regulations cannot be assumed to be more effectively enforced
    - Because it does not address any of the current problems with gun violence
    - Cannot include mental health issues due to HIPAA
    - Will do nothing new for "straw purchases" that are already felonies

    In 2012 there were over 70,000 felonies involving firearms that were not prosecuted even though the perpetrator was known and identified. That is how many people applied to illegally purchase firearms that are ineligible to purchase them which is a felony. Only 0.1% of those felonies were prosecuted. Go ahead and say "well those people weren't able to by a gun then", because I will laugh at you and explain how because those people were allowed to leave the store and find someone else to buy the gun for them or purchase one some other way.

    Our current gun laws are not effective because they are not enforced. Adding new laws that will not be enforced is not going to change that. Enforce what we have and see how much of a problem there is left. Then we can talk about further regulation.
    The number of vehicles bought solely for use on private lands is very small compared to the overall number of vehicles sold. I don't know the exact numbers but can you really tell us that it's a significant percentage? A pretty weak argument overall.

    Nice little loophole on the not registering your house. The majority of houses needed a permit (from the government) in order to be built. Add an extension, get a permit. Build a deck on it, get a permit. As you mentioned, the land is registered. Aren't the house and the land kind of a package deal? Permanent improvements to the land actually are recorded on the deed in many places. Another pretty weak argument.

    Can you point to proof positive that universal background checks WILL lead to registration and confiscation? Of course you can't. It's ridiculous either way. This argument is beyond weak.

    I entirely agree with you on enforcing the laws we have, maybe even getting rid of some of them. But there are IMO laws that could help reduce gun violence.

  20. #820
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    What have you offered this debate in the form of constructive ideas that doesn't involve more laws, rules, regulation, bans, hardship, or restrictions on the law abiding gun owner?
    I have proposed no ban on guns.

    I don't believe that reasonable regulations on gun ownership constitute a hardship on the owners. No more so than the numerous licenses and permits government demands we get in so many areas of our daily lives. The fact that you disagree with something does not automatically qualify it as a hardship.

    Rules, regulations, restrictions are all pretty much the same thing. It wasn't me that proposed them. It was the constitution when it said "a well regulated Militia".

  21. #821
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    But if there is an insurance claim, all you need to do is provide the serial number for the units. Why does it have to be different for firearms? If it is stolen or damaged, I just need to provide the serial number. I will help you out, it doesn't need to be any different. As long as the owner maintains a record of their belongings, there is no reason for any further proof of ownership.

    As to your dad's car, nothing will be done. What happens when you drive a rental? It is not registered to you. What if you borrow a car from your neighbor? Nothing. - And again, this does nothing to add to the discussion of firearms and universal background checks. You claim all of this about vehicles, but when was the last time you had a background check run to buy a car? You don't even need to show a driver's license unless you are the one driving it off the lot. So your own comparison shows the holes in your theory.
    When you drive a rental you are driving a car that was mandated by the government to be registered. The rightful owner has agreed to rent that car to you, assuming you have the government mandated driver's license. In order to engage in the business of renting you that car, the rental company is mandated by the government to have a license or permit to do so. The government also regulates that business. Is this a hardship or punishment on the business? Are their rights being taken away?

    When you buy a car, the government mandates that it be registered in order for it to be driven off the lot. The government also mandates that the driver, whether it's you or someone else, have a driver's license. The government mandates that the car dealer have a license or permit to engage in that business. The government also regulates that business. Does any of this constitute hardship or punishment? Are rights being taken away?

  22. #822
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Name me a single other regulation that is solely directed at the legal, law abiding citizen. Don't worry, I'll wait.
    Vehicle registration.
    Mandatory vehicle insurance.
    Driver's licenses.
    Building permits, building codes, etc.
    Licenses to engage in most professions.
    Permits to conduct most businesses.

    I could go on all night. Was that even a serious question?

  23. #823
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .. Next they (the liberals) will want to collect a tax, let's call it a "Firearm Ownership Tax", when you must register it.

    So only those that can afford the tax can afford to own weapons.

    A form of gun control by another name.
    So taxes on food are "food control"?

    Taxes on clothing is "clothing control"?

    Basically you're saying that all taxes are a way to prevent people from buying things?

  24. #824
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    We have an update concerning the Minnesota clairvoyant police program. They may have just recorded their first crime interruption.
    In the early morning hours yesterday, 2 young, armed ruffians attempted to hold up the local donut shop, but soon found themselves in the steely clutches of the 37 officers enjoying their morning coffee and donut. Now since only 2 of the officers in attendance where part of the program, there is some debate concerning whether it was a foresight by a member of the program. Or just dumb luck there just happened to be officers at the donut shop that morning.
    I will keep you updated.
    Aren't you the clown that challenged me to offer something "constructive" a page or two back?

  25. #825
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Well at least we know one thing. All the talk about prying the guns from their cold dead hands didn't apply in New Orleans.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. PG soon.....we hope!?
    By arhaney in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-23-2007, 11:39 AM
  2. Not Exactly Fire Related, But It Fits.
    By MalahatTwo7 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-28-2004, 11:48 AM
  3. Might there be hope?!!
    By BC79er_OLDDELETE in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 02-09-2004, 12:04 PM
  4. Any Hope?
    By Kiernan in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-26-2003, 09:48 PM
  5. Hope for the best?
    By Bones42 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-15-2003, 09:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register