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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    If I am walking some where and some one is OBVIOUSLY following me I am going to find out why. While it may be his right to follow me, it is also my right not to be harrassed if I am doing nothing wrong. When Zimmerman started following Trayvon he was doing nothing wrong, all he was doing was walking through the neighborhood. Not sure about where any of you live, but if walking through the neighborhood is a suspicious act I would be calling the police about 20 times a day on people.
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    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If I am walking some where and some one is OBVIOUSLY following me I am going to find out why. While it may be his right to follow me, it is also my right not to be harrassed if I am doing nothing wrong. When Zimmerman started following Trayvon he was doing nothing wrong, all he was doing was walking through the neighborhood. Not sure about where any of you live, but if walking through the neighborhood is a suspicious act I would be calling the police about 20 times a day on people.
    I think you're overlooking the fact that this was a "gated" community. The residents probably pay extra homeowner fees to keep people that don't live there out. When they say TM was not doing anything wrong, that may very well be as far as the law is concerned, but maybe not the homeowners assoc.

    I'm positive that had this been a gaggle of hoodie wearing emo kids cutting through that community, they would have been followed too to make sure that nothing malicious would happen. I'm not saying that was TM's intent either. I am saying that even a guy like you or me should expect to be followed and possibly even questioned if we are in an area that we don't belong.

    How did TM get in? Did he hop a fence? Did he come through the gate after a car passed through? I'm not condoning what GZ did, from all accounts he is a guy who wanted to be a cop but couldn't make it on the force, landed a position as a watchman in a gated community. Those are bad combinations. It just seems to me that with all the speculation, the gated community fact gets overlooked.
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    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    The fact is there was zero evidence to indicate that Zimmerman has initiated anything
    Bolshevik.

    He told the police dispatcher he was going to follow Trayvon Martin, and despite instruction to the contrary, he clearly did.

    He needed to be more Paul Blart and less Rambo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Bolshevik.

    He told the police dispatcher he was going to follow Trayvon Martin, and despite instruction to the contrary, he clearly did.

    He needed to be more Paul Blart and less Rambo.
    While I agree with your last sentence, the dispatchers' statement can hardly be called instruction to the contrary. The only two people who ever knew who initiated anything or did anything unlawful was Zimmerman and Martin. We only have one story to go with and a jury found it credible enough, which is our system of justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    No matter how you slice it, (in THIS instance) it take TWO to tango. If Martin didn't assault Zimmerman, he'd have no reason to pull his gun. Yours is a strawman argument.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    No matter how you slice it, (in THIS instance) it take TWO to tango. If Martin didn't assault Zimmerman, he'd have no reason to pull his gun. Yours is a strawman argument.
    And yours can't be proven as fact. So now what?

    No matter how you slice it, no matter what you say, if Zimmerman stays in his car, observes from a safe distance, and keeps the police informed of Trayvons martin's location no confrontation occurs. You can sing, you can dance, you can say strawman all you want, this is the only truth that can't be denied.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-17-2013 at 01:49 AM.
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    Forum Member ladder9volley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I think you're overlooking the fact that this was a "gated" community. The residents probably pay extra homeowner fees to keep people that don't live there out. When they say TM was not doing anything wrong, that may very well be as far as the law is concerned, but maybe not the homeowners assoc.

    I'm positive that had this been a gaggle of hoodie wearing emo kids cutting through that community, they would have been followed too to make sure that nothing malicious would happen. I'm not saying that was TM's intent either. I am saying that even a guy like you or me should expect to be followed and possibly even questioned if we are in an area that we don't belong.

    How did TM get in? Did he hop a fence? Did he come through the gate after a car passed through? I'm not condoning what GZ did, from all accounts he is a guy who wanted to be a cop but couldn't make it on the force, landed a position as a watchman in a gated community. Those are bad combinations. It just seems to me that with all the speculation, the gated community fact gets overlooked.
    you are aware that he was visiting his dad who lived with his girlfriend.. so im guessing he had a passcode or a key that allowed him entrance into the "gated" community.. once again nothing would have happened if zimmerman was doing his job as a neighborhood WATCHMEN.. and not a neighborhood cop or even security.. he was a watchmen


    http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook
    note #10: on the 15th slide
    " Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime.
    Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest.The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department"



    http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html
    highlighted portion makes it seem like hes tired of calling police(called police 46 times in the previous 2-3 years) or whatever and the problems not going away so he takes it upon himself to stop the subject.. which if you see the other link i provided is not something a neighborhood watchman should be doing...


    if he heeded the request of the dispatcher not to keep following him.. if he followed the directive of the neighborhood watch manual, if he decided not to play hero and just continue to let dispatch know of martins general location from his truck.. this would not have happened... because as a watchman you should know the area you are watching over, as the self-described watch captain you should have even more knowledge of the area..

    its a gated community with 250 town homes, if there's 10 houses on a 100 yard block, that puts it at around 25 blocks worth of houses.. and town homes being fairly skinny with not alot of yard.. i could that number of 10 being maybe 10 on each side of the street or 20 on each block equaling around 10 blocks... there is no reason he should not have been able to give a general perimeter of where the subject ran toward

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And yours can't be proven as fact. So now what?

    No matter how you slice it, no matter what you say, if Zimmerman stays in his car, observes from a safe distance, and keeps the police informed of Trayvons martin's location no confrontation occurs. You can sing, you can dance, you can say strawman all you want, this is the only truth that can't be denied.
    Even that cannot be absolutely factual. Who's to say that Martin didn't already deceide to attack Zimmerman and would have doubled back and attacked him in his car. While highly unlikely you cannot profess to know exactly what would or would not have happened if... It's pure speculation as likely or unlikely as we'd have the scenarios. Again, while I'm in agreement that Zimmerman likely would not have left his car without a gun, even that is not fact. The only facts are what actually took place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    you are aware that he was visiting his dad who lived with his girlfriend.. so im guessing he had a passcode or a key that allowed him entrance into the "gated" community..
    Did they live in the community?
    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook
    note #10: on the 15th slide
    " Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime.
    Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest.The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department"
    I think this will be a big problem in the civil suit for the watch group who knew he often carried while on watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    if he heeded the request of the dispatcher not to keep following him..
    It was not a request. None of the rest of your "what if's" make a bit of difference as he remained within his lawful rights as far as we know and has been upheld in our system of justice.

    I don't think that given what we know that Martin prior to the confrontation that no one else saw, brought this on himself, but our system remains true to the need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and in this case they had to show Zimmerman was not defending himself from fear of life and/or limb or he was the original aggressor. Again, beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-17-2013 at 07:07 AM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    you are aware that he was visiting his dad who lived with his girlfriend.. so im guessing he had a passcode or a key that allowed him entrance into the "gated" community.. once again nothing would have happened if zimmerman was doing his job as a neighborhood WATCHMEN.. and not a neighborhood cop or even security.. he was a watchmen


    http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook
    note #10: on the 15th slide
    " Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime.
    Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest.The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department"

    He has the right to follow. Nowhere does it indicate that he had made any effort to apprehend Martin.



    http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html
    highlighted portion makes it seem like hes tired of calling police(called police 46 times in the previous 2-3 years) or whatever and the problems not going away so he takes it upon himself to stop the subject.. which if you see the other link i provided is not something a neighborhood watchman should be doing...

    Where? He follows. As far as the ***holes comment he simply could be referring to those that have been doing the recent break-ins. Saying that's it's a racial reference is nothing but conjecture.


    if he heeded the request of the dispatcher not to keep following him.. if he followed the directive of the neighborhood watch manual, if he decided not to play hero and just continue to let dispatch know of martins general location from his truck.. this would not have happened... because as a watchman you should know the area you are watching over, as the self-described watch captain you should have even more knowledge of the area..

    And if Martin hadn't decided to come back after he lost him and more than likely jumped him, it would not have happened either.


    its a gated community with 250 town homes, if there's 10 houses on a 100 yard block, that puts it at around 25 blocks worth of houses.. and town homes being fairly skinny with not alot of yard.. i could that number of 10 being maybe 10 on each side of the street or 20 on each block equaling around 10 blocks... there is no reason he should not have been able to give a general perimeter of where the subject ran toward
    And when was the last time you were there? Never?. Exactly.
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Zimmerman or his defenders have yet to prove what Martin was doing that was illegal that warranted further scrutiny.

    The jury has spoken and acquitted Zimmerman. But he is still responsible for Martin's death.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Even that cannot be absolutely factual. Who's to say that Martin didn't already deceide to attack Zimmerman and would have doubled back and attacked him in his car. While highly unlikely you cannot profess to know exactly what would or would not have happened if... It's pure speculation as likely or unlikely as we'd have the scenarios. Again, while I'm in agreement that Zimmerman likely would not have left his car without a gun, even that is not fact. The only facts are what actually took place.
    The situation of attacking him in his car would clearly have defended Zimmerman's actions. His leaving his vehicle to follow Trayvon led to the confrontation. It doesn't matter to me who actually instigated the fight. Zimmerman leaving his vehicle led up to the possibility of it even happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Zimmerman or his defenders have yet to prove what Martin was doing that was illegal that warranted further scrutiny.

    The jury has spoken and acquitted Zimmerman. But he is still responsible for Martin's death.
    And Zimmerman's critics have yet to prove what he did was illegal.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post


    He has the right to follow. Nowhere does it indicate that he had made any effort to apprehend Martin.

    I have the right to walk the street without being harassed. If I feel I am being followed one of two things is going to occur. Either I am going to pull out my cell phone and call police and tell them I am being followed and I fear for my safety, OR I am going to turn around and ask why are you following me? More than likely the second event wouldn't occur unless I was on a busy sidwalk, or until after I get my concealed carry permit, if I decide to.

    Frankly, how would any of you white guys feel if you were in a neighborhood and a black guy started following you? You all want to dance around the race issue but there it is. Trayvon was a black kid in a white neighborhood, Zimmerman immediately labeled him as suspicious and started following him, WHY?


    The whole thing stinks and is a pathetic issue of what fear will make people do.
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  15. #75
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And Zimmerman's critics have yet to prove what he did was illegal.
    Something doesn't have to be illegal for it not to be right. Look at your vfd for example, it isn't illegal but what you do certainly isn't right.

    The fact remains that if Zimmerman stays in his vehicle no confrontation would likely have occurred. he got out of his vehicle to play hero, got his *** kicked and ended up killing Trayvon over it. So even if the jury acquitted him he is still responsible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Something doesn't have to be illegal for it not to be right. Look at your vfd for example, it isn't illegal but what you do certainly isn't right.

    The fact remains that if Zimmerman stays in his vehicle no confrontation would likely have occurred. he got out of his vehicle to play hero, got his *** kicked and ended up killing Trayvon over it. So even if the jury acquitted him he is still responsible.
    So you ignore the fact that Martin doubled back after losing Zimmerman and chose to confront him?

    Sorry, but if we are assigning blame, Martin is just as guilty as Zimmerman for making the choice that he made.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you ignore the fact that Martin doubled back after losing Zimmerman and chose to confront him?

    Sorry, but if we are assigning blame, Martin is just as guilty as Zimmerman for making the choice that he made.
    AND YET ONE MORE TIME, if Zimmerman, the supposed responsible adult neighborhood watch captain, follows the rules of that organization, there is no confrontation because he never gets close enough to Trayvon martin for one to occur. You see Bobby, it is all about SAFETY and that is why the rules of neighborhood wath are written that way. It also says no weapons. Funny how that fact keeps getting glossed over.
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    I have the right to walk the street without being harassed. If I feel I am being followed one of two things is going to occur. Either I am going to pull out my cell phone and call police and tell them I am being followed and I fear for my safety, OR I am going to turn around and ask why are you following me? More than likely the second event wouldn't occur unless I was on a busy sidwalk, or until after I get my concealed carry permit, if I decide to.

    We all have the right to walk on a public street, though I guess we could argue if the streets in a gated community as really "public".

    If I lived in a gated community, and I noticed somebody who didn't seem to belong, likely I would keep an eye on them as well.

    A few years ago, when I lived in the city, I was walking through a primarily white mobile home park. I was dressed in sweats and a t-shirt as I was exercising. Apparently one of the residents had called the police because she didn't recognize me. They showed up, asked me a few questions, and advised me that I may not want to use this as part of my exercise route as I didn't live in the park.

    Folks who live in those types of communities do have a right to keep an eye on folks who may not be residents or just "don't fit".


    Frankly, how would any of you white guys feel if you were in a neighborhood and a black guy started following you? You all want to dance around the race issue but there it is. Trayvon was a black kid in a white neighborhood, Zimmerman immediately labeled him as suspicious and started following him, WHY?

    I have no issues in "dancing around" the race cards.

    Blacks are statistically more likely to commit crime. When looking at cross-race violent crime, blacks are significantly more likely to be the aggressors compared to whites.

    Those are the facts that many in the black community ignore or deny.

    And yes, I will admit when being followed by a black v. white, I am far more wary of the black, and am far more likely to label them as suspicious much faster.

    If you want to call that profiling, fine. If you wish to call me a racist based on that, fine. But the facts support the suspicions of most whites.
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  19. #79
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have the right to walk the street without being harassed. If I feel I am being followed one of two things is going to occur. Either I am going to pull out my cell phone and call police and tell them I am being followed and I fear for my safety, OR I am going to turn around and ask why are you following me? More than likely the second event wouldn't occur unless I was on a busy sidwalk, or until after I get my concealed carry permit, if I decide to.

    We all have the right to walk on a public street, though I guess we could argue if the streets in a gated community as really "public".

    If I lived in a gated community, and I noticed somebody who didn't seem to belong, likely I would keep an eye on them as well.

    A few years ago, when I lived in the city, I was walking through a primarily white mobile home park. I was dressed in sweats and a t-shirt as I was exercising. Apparently one of the residents had called the police because she didn't recognize me. They showed up, asked me a few questions, and advised me that I may not want to use this as part of my exercise route as I didn't live in the park.

    Folks who live in those types of communities do have a right to keep an eye on folks who may not be residents or just "don't fit".


    You are confusing keeping an eye on someone and calling the police with exiting your vehicle and placing yourself directly in the situation.

    Frankly, how would any of you white guys feel if you were in a neighborhood and a black guy started following you? You all want to dance around the race issue but there it is. Trayvon was a black kid in a white neighborhood, Zimmerman immediately labeled him as suspicious and started following him, WHY?

    I have no issues in "dancing around" the race cards.

    Blacks are statistically more likely to commit crime. When looking at cross-race violent crime, blacks are significantly more likely to be the aggressors compared to whites.

    Those are the facts that many in the black community ignore or deny.

    And yes, I will admit when being followed by a black v. white, I am far more wary of the black, and am far more likely to label them as suspicious much faster.

    If you want to call that profiling, fine. If you wish to call me a racist based on that, fine. But the facts support the suspicions of most whites.


    Frankly, that is pretty racist. My wife and I were driving in Milwaukee last week and the most direct route to where we wanted to go took us through predominantly black neighborhoods, now my car is essentially a lime green brand new Dodge Dart, so we stuck out like sore thumbs. I was never in fear even at stop lights with large groups of people standing there. To me, for the most part, people are people, azz holes and thugs come in all colors, races, ethnicities, religions and political beliefs. But so do basically good people just trying to get through another day. While I am not naive, or a patsy, I will try to give people the benfit of the doubt versus assuming because of how they look they are evil.
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    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-17-2013 at 04:26 PM.
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    For those that are curious, here are the jury instructions:

    http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...structions.pdf

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