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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Something doesn't have to be illegal for it not to be right. Look at your vfd for example, it isn't illegal but what you do certainly isn't right.

    The fact remains that if Zimmerman stays in his vehicle no confrontation would likely have occurred. he got out of his vehicle to play hero, got his *** kicked and ended up killing Trayvon over it. So even if the jury acquitted him he is still responsible.
    So you ignore the fact that Martin doubled back after losing Zimmerman and chose to confront him?

    Sorry, but if we are assigning blame, Martin is just as guilty as Zimmerman for making the choice that he made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you ignore the fact that Martin doubled back after losing Zimmerman and chose to confront him?

    Sorry, but if we are assigning blame, Martin is just as guilty as Zimmerman for making the choice that he made.
    AND YET ONE MORE TIME, if Zimmerman, the supposed responsible adult neighborhood watch captain, follows the rules of that organization, there is no confrontation because he never gets close enough to Trayvon martin for one to occur. You see Bobby, it is all about SAFETY and that is why the rules of neighborhood wath are written that way. It also says no weapons. Funny how that fact keeps getting glossed over.
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    I have the right to walk the street without being harassed. If I feel I am being followed one of two things is going to occur. Either I am going to pull out my cell phone and call police and tell them I am being followed and I fear for my safety, OR I am going to turn around and ask why are you following me? More than likely the second event wouldn't occur unless I was on a busy sidwalk, or until after I get my concealed carry permit, if I decide to.

    We all have the right to walk on a public street, though I guess we could argue if the streets in a gated community as really "public".

    If I lived in a gated community, and I noticed somebody who didn't seem to belong, likely I would keep an eye on them as well.

    A few years ago, when I lived in the city, I was walking through a primarily white mobile home park. I was dressed in sweats and a t-shirt as I was exercising. Apparently one of the residents had called the police because she didn't recognize me. They showed up, asked me a few questions, and advised me that I may not want to use this as part of my exercise route as I didn't live in the park.

    Folks who live in those types of communities do have a right to keep an eye on folks who may not be residents or just "don't fit".


    Frankly, how would any of you white guys feel if you were in a neighborhood and a black guy started following you? You all want to dance around the race issue but there it is. Trayvon was a black kid in a white neighborhood, Zimmerman immediately labeled him as suspicious and started following him, WHY?

    I have no issues in "dancing around" the race cards.

    Blacks are statistically more likely to commit crime. When looking at cross-race violent crime, blacks are significantly more likely to be the aggressors compared to whites.

    Those are the facts that many in the black community ignore or deny.

    And yes, I will admit when being followed by a black v. white, I am far more wary of the black, and am far more likely to label them as suspicious much faster.

    If you want to call that profiling, fine. If you wish to call me a racist based on that, fine. But the facts support the suspicions of most whites.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have the right to walk the street without being harassed. If I feel I am being followed one of two things is going to occur. Either I am going to pull out my cell phone and call police and tell them I am being followed and I fear for my safety, OR I am going to turn around and ask why are you following me? More than likely the second event wouldn't occur unless I was on a busy sidwalk, or until after I get my concealed carry permit, if I decide to.

    We all have the right to walk on a public street, though I guess we could argue if the streets in a gated community as really "public".

    If I lived in a gated community, and I noticed somebody who didn't seem to belong, likely I would keep an eye on them as well.

    A few years ago, when I lived in the city, I was walking through a primarily white mobile home park. I was dressed in sweats and a t-shirt as I was exercising. Apparently one of the residents had called the police because she didn't recognize me. They showed up, asked me a few questions, and advised me that I may not want to use this as part of my exercise route as I didn't live in the park.

    Folks who live in those types of communities do have a right to keep an eye on folks who may not be residents or just "don't fit".


    You are confusing keeping an eye on someone and calling the police with exiting your vehicle and placing yourself directly in the situation.

    Frankly, how would any of you white guys feel if you were in a neighborhood and a black guy started following you? You all want to dance around the race issue but there it is. Trayvon was a black kid in a white neighborhood, Zimmerman immediately labeled him as suspicious and started following him, WHY?

    I have no issues in "dancing around" the race cards.

    Blacks are statistically more likely to commit crime. When looking at cross-race violent crime, blacks are significantly more likely to be the aggressors compared to whites.

    Those are the facts that many in the black community ignore or deny.

    And yes, I will admit when being followed by a black v. white, I am far more wary of the black, and am far more likely to label them as suspicious much faster.

    If you want to call that profiling, fine. If you wish to call me a racist based on that, fine. But the facts support the suspicions of most whites.


    Frankly, that is pretty racist. My wife and I were driving in Milwaukee last week and the most direct route to where we wanted to go took us through predominantly black neighborhoods, now my car is essentially a lime green brand new Dodge Dart, so we stuck out like sore thumbs. I was never in fear even at stop lights with large groups of people standing there. To me, for the most part, people are people, azz holes and thugs come in all colors, races, ethnicities, religions and political beliefs. But so do basically good people just trying to get through another day. While I am not naive, or a patsy, I will try to give people the benfit of the doubt versus assuming because of how they look they are evil.
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    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-17-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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    For those that are curious, here are the jury instructions:

    http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...structions.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    For those that are curious, here are the jury instructions:

    http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...structions.pdf
    It's pretty clear to me from those instructions that they had no choice but to find Zimmerman not guilty by means of justifiable homicide. I understand and agree with Fyred up that Zimmermans' actions led to the eventual death, but because none of those acts were in themselves illegal, find no reason to beleaguer the point. The fact is that this case did nothing to make anything like this any easier in the future, on the contrary it proved that even when the shooter and police agree that it's a justifiable self-defense shooting the DA can and likely will bring charges and you will be tried in court. Even when you defend yourself legally you may be incarcerated and you will have to fight to prove your innocence while the state does their best to prove your guilt. Again these observations are based solely on the known facts of the case and not what-ifs or those things that can not be proven.

    If, if you legally concealed carry a firearm at any time, be very cognizant of for every action there is at least an equal and opposite reaction, and in the case of human perception that opposite reaction can far exceed "equal". You should be well versed in the aspects of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy and be damn sure if you present that weapon you had no other chance or choices because regardless of the fine details of any set of laws, it could suck real bad for a really long time, even if your totally in the right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And I fully agree that they basically have nothing, but after all we are dealing with a DOJ that had no issues with a group of Black Panthers in combat garb "hanging out" outside of a polling place.
    Doing nothing more significant than opening the door for an elderly white woman on her way to the polling booth.

    Since you are such a firm believer in the criminal justice system, then I'm sure you must also believe O.J. was not guilty of the crimes he was accused of committing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You should be well versed in the aspects of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy and be damn sure if you present that weapon you had no other chance or choices because regardless of the fine details of any set of laws, it could suck real bad for a really long time, even if your totally in the right.
    A great point. We are to believe Zimmerman also had no other choice. He had the choice to back away from Martin. Assuming Zimmerman didn't start the physical altercation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no issues in "dancing around" the race cards.

    Blacks are statistically more likely to commit crime. When looking at cross-race violent crime, blacks are significantly more likely to be the aggressors compared to whites.

    Those are the facts that many in the black community ignore or deny.

    And yes, I will admit when being followed by a black v. white, I am far more wary of the black, and am far more likely to label them as suspicious much faster.

    If you want to call that profiling, fine. If you wish to call me a racist based on that, fine. But the facts support the suspicions of most whites.
    Dude, you need to erase this crap and keep your fears to yourself. There are more skinheads and cholo's on the street that would sooner take a crack at you. You emit fear as you walk with your shifting eyes and that "nothing to see here, just keeping to myself fellas" look on your scared face. I'm ashamed to have read this. I'm sure there's a neighboorhood in Idaho where you and Mark Fuhrman can stand around the fire pit telling racist jokes and shooting beer cans with shotguns, and not have to worry about being scared of a black man walking up to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    A great point. We are to believe Zimmerman also had no other choice. He had the choice to back away from Martin. Assuming Zimmerman didn't start the physical altercation.
    Could we not also assume that Zimmerman attempted to retreat or was unable too? In Zimmermans' case, being in a SYG state he did not have to retreat even if he was able. In the end the legal ability to shoot a person instead of retreating probably would be something ole George would advise against to anyone asking, regardless of what laws are out there. Then again if he truly felt he feared for life/limb and had no other option from the moment it started going bad (for him) then...
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-17-2013 at 11:00 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Could we not also assume that Zimmerman attempted to retreat or was unable too? In Zimmermans' case, being in a SYG state he did not have to retreat even if he was able. In the end the legal ability to shoot a person instead of retreating probably would be something ole George would advise against to anyone asking, regardless of what laws are out there. Then again if he truly felt he feared for life/limb and had no other option from the moment it started going bad (for him) then...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD83PmBeaW4&noredirect=1

    Here's Zimmerman alluding that he believes it was God's will to kill Martin.

    He wouldn't change anything he's done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Frankly, how would any of you white guys feel if you were in a neighborhood and a black guy started following you? You all want to dance around the race issue but there it is.
    Honestly it would depend on the neighborhood, time of day, their appearance and behavior.

    Trayvon was a black kid in a white neighborhood, Zimmerman immediately labeled him as suspicious and started following him, WHY?
    I think you partially answered your own question.

    From what I recall reading somewhere along the way, he wasn't simply walking thru the neighborhood on the public sidewalks, he was also walking thru some yards. He had his hoodie pulled up over his head - nothing wrong with that other than the fact that it's a fairly common practice when trying to conceal ones identity, like during criminal activity.

    Right or wrong, it's hard to argue that a black kid with his hood up in a white neighborhood with a string of recent burglaries walking thru yards isn't "suspicious" on some level and not worthy of additional scrutiny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And yours can't be proven as fact. So now what?

    No matter how you slice it, no matter what you say, if Zimmerman stays in his car, observes from a safe distance, and keeps the police informed of Trayvons martin's location no confrontation occurs. You can sing, you can dance, you can say strawman all you want, this is the only truth that can't be denied.
    Actually it CAN AND WAS PROVEN. You evidently didn't pay attention to any of they court testimony or evidence. A FORENSIC examiner determined Trayvon WAS on top of George when he was shot. And injuries to Georges face and the back of his head prove it as well, we in the EMS field call that "mechanism of injury".

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The situation of attacking him in his car would clearly have defended Zimmerman's actions. His leaving his vehicle to follow Trayvon led to the confrontation. It doesn't matter to me who actually instigated the fight. Zimmerman leaving his vehicle led up to the possibility of it even happening.
    By your logic, Zimmerman getting out of bed led up to the possibility of it happening. And it DOES matter who instigated the physical fight. If Zimmerman threw the first punch, it would be hands down murder, regardless of whether he was getting his butt kicked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it, no matter what you say, if Zimmerman stays in his car, observes from a safe distance, and keeps the police informed of Trayvons martin's location no confrontation occurs. You can sing, you can dance, you can say strawman all you want, this is the only truth that can't be denied.
    I really don't think anybody is truly arguing against this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    And it DOES matter who instigated the physical fight. If Zimmerman threw the first punch, it would be hands down murder, regardless of whether he was getting his butt kicked.
    I don't believe the trial clearly established who "started the fight", but given the fact that the defense's position was essential that Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked, feared for his life and took what ended up being lethal action to stop it and was acquitted of murder charges proves that you would probably be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Actually it CAN AND WAS PROVEN. You evidently didn't pay attention to any of they court testimony or evidence. A FORENSIC examiner determined Trayvon WAS on top of George when he was shot. And injuries to Georges face and the back of his head prove it as well, we in the EMS field call that "mechanism of injury".
    I don't believe I ever denied that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. I never denied that Trayvon was winning the fight.

    What you just simply refuse to see is if Zimmerman stays in his truck no confrontation occurs, no fight breaks out,Zimmerman doesn'r get his azz kicked and Trayvon doesn't get shot. It is all so simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    By your logic, Zimmerman getting out of bed led up to the possibility of it happening. And it DOES matter who instigated the physical fight. If Zimmerman threw the first punch, it would be hands down murder, regardless of whether he was getting his butt kicked.
    So how can you prove that Zimmerman didn't throw the first punch?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I don't believe I ever denied that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. I never denied that Trayvon was winning the fight.

    What you just simply refuse to see is if Zimmerman stays in his truck no confrontation occurs, no fight breaks out,Zimmerman doesn'r get his azz kicked and Trayvon doesn't get shot. It is all so simple.
    But he had no legal requirement to stay in his truck. What he was doing was legal.

    Martin responded with the illegal activity - Assault.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I don't believe the trial clearly established who "started the fight", but given the fact that the defense's position was essential that Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked, feared for his life and took what ended up being lethal action to stop it and was acquitted of murder charges proves that you would probably be wrong.
    Actually case law and most states laws will not allow an armed person to use self-defense when they are the initial aggressor. To allow otherwise would be to allow anyone carrying to provoke a fight with any dangerous person, then upon the fight turning physical, draw their weapon and kill the person. But, if you as the initial aggressor attempt to peaceably end the altercation, by walking away and the other person then continues the fight, they become the "new" initial aggressor.

    For anyone interested any interview or video of Mas Ayoob speaking on the topic of justifiable shootings is well worth the time. Ayoob is notably one of, if not the, foremost experts on the topic and has provided expert testimony in numerous court trials. Again, if you carry, this would be well worth you time as information you should have before anything ever takes place.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-18-2013 at 10:03 AM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So how can you prove that Zimmerman didn't throw the first punch?
    If the prosecution had proven he had thrown the first punch beyond a reasonable doubt, it's highly likely that this would have had a much different outcome. Most "experts" (real ones, not just us firehouse 'sperts) agree that more often then not, the initial aggressor has no right to self-defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    What you just simply refuse to see is if Zimmerman stays in his truck no confrontation occurs, no fight breaks out,Zimmerman doesn'r get his azz kicked and Trayvon doesn't get shot. It is all so simple.
    What you seem to be ignoring is that while many or most of us agree with you on this point, cause and affect does not mean you're guilty of a crime unless the "cause" was a criminal act. In this case none of Zimmermans poor choices were against the law, hence he's not guilty, but he clearly bears significant responsibility for the outcome. You must admit that Martin may bear some responsibility himself, as in fact the court basically ruled that he was legally responsible for the outcome, while this requires we believe the only side of the story we have.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-18-2013 at 10:11 AM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I don't believe the trial clearly established who "started the fight", but given the fact that the defense's position was essential that Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked, feared for his life and took what ended up being lethal action to stop it and was acquitted of murder charges proves that you would probably be wrong.
    O.J. was acquitted as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But he had no legal requirement to stay in his truck. What he was doing was legal.

    Martin responded with the illegal activity - Assault.
    We don't know who started the assault. We do know that Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked.

    Do you believe Martin's actions would have been the same if he knew Zimmerman had been armed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We don't know who started the assault. We do know that Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked.

    Do you believe Martin's actions would have been the same if he knew Zimmerman had been armed?
    Irrelevant, as Zimmerman was legally armed.
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