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Thread: Question about Thermal Liner in bunker gear

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    Default Question about Thermal Liner in bunker gear

    So I have been on my Dept 4.5 Months now, We rarely get any calls (15 a year if lucky) and the first 2 months I went without gear due to me being a larger fella and my dept not having any gear that fit, Eventually I found some new gear at a steal of a price and the company agreed to let me use it for 3 months (Paid $400 to try it) and found that the gear is to long in the legs and just doesnt fit properly (akward to move around and difficult to maneuver). My dept did locate some gear after I got this particular gear which was from a neighboring dept and was used, That gear fits perfectly but the pants have a few tears/rips in the thermal liner inside, The outside fabric has no tears or rips and is good condition however the thermal liner has rips around the crotch and leg area. Now that Ive made you read this long *** paragraph lets get to the question, Could I use this gear for interior ops without running the risk of getting thermal burns due to the rips in the fabric or would I be ok until the dept can afford to find me a better set of gear?

    Thanks!

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    Any information would really be appreciated, Would hate to keep the current gear that doesn't fit to well if I can wear the old gear that fits like a glove with the liner tear with no worries, Not only would it save me $800 but I could walk around comfortably lol.

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    Get the thermal lining repaired.

    Is the gear less than 10 years old? If over 10 years old it no longer meets NFPA and the thermal lining tear is really a moot point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Get the thermal lining repaired.

    Is the gear less than 10 years old? If over 10 years old it no longer meets NFPA and the thermal lining tear is really a moot point.
    The gear is only about 5 years old, How much do you think the liner would cost to be repaired? I think the nearest place that does NFPA compliant repairs is 2.5 hours away.

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    How bad is the damage? Simply torn? Pretty much destroyed? Can they patch it?

    I would guestimate if it is a minor repair, less than $100. WASH IT before you take it there or they will wash it and charge you for doing so.

    Call the repair shop and see if you can send them pics of what needs fixing so they can give you a ball park estimate.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-25-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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    Its just torn, Im sure it could be patched pretty easily

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    astanford: TOG is designed to operate with three separate functions. Outer shell is designed to protect from snags, tears and punctures that could compromise the VAPOR BARRIER & THERMAL BARRIER or injure the wearer. Vapor barrier is supposed to keep moisture, steam and other vapors (maybe carcenogenic) away from your skin and street clothing. Thermal barrier is there to keep the vapor barrier (rubber ??) away from your skin to prevent burns. Steam will pass through the outer shell and condense on the vapor barrier. Condensing steam will raise the vapor barrier to 212 deg. F. so the thermal lining is absolutely essential to protect the wearer. Having described the function of the layers of TOG, and having spent about 1/3 of my career (now 45 years) operating with hip boots and a long coat, I can confidently say that a whole lot of interior work will not require an intact crotch. There have been times when it became necessary to bail out to prevent the "Roasting of Chestnuts" when working on a hot one. The bottom line is "This is 2013", and we do have state of the art protection in our TOG. Any fire company that allows their interior firefighters to operate with compromised TOG should receive a visit from Dewey, Cheatem & Howe and be slapped with a stiff law suit. On the analysis, allowing you to do interior work with the TOG as you describe would probably be considered "Willful and Wanton" disregard for a firefighters safety and would most likely result in personal liability lawsuit for many officers as well as a suit against the fire company. Serving in a volunteer fire department does not provide immunity from making good choices with regard to safety of firefighters.
    Last edited by kuh shise; 07-25-2013 at 11:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuh shise View Post
    astanford: TOG is designed to operate with three separate functions. Outer shell is designed to protect from snags, tears and punctures that could compromise the VAPOR BARRIER & THERMAL BARRIER or injure the wearer. Vapor barrier is supposed to keep moisture, steam and other vapors (maybe carcenogenic) away from your skin and street clothing. Thermal barrier is there to keep the vapor barrier (rubber ??) away from your skin to prevent burns. Steam will pass through the outer shell and condense on the vapor barrier. Condensing steam will raise the vapor barrier to 212 deg. F. so the thermal lining is absolutely essential to protect the wearer. Having described the function of the layers of TOG, and having spent about 1/3 of my career (now 45 years) operating with hip boots and a long coat, I can confidently say that a whole lot of interior work will not require an intact crotch. There have been times when it became necessary to bail out to prevent the "Roasting of Chestnuts" when working on a hot one. The bottom line is "This is 2013", and we do have state of the art protection in our TOG. Any fire company that allows their interior firefighters to operate with compromised TOG should receive a visit from Dewey, Cheatem & Howe and be slapped with a stiff law suit. On the analysis, allowing you to do interior work with the TOG as you describe would probably be considered "Willful and Wanton" disregard for a firefighters safety and would most likely result in personal liability lawsuit for many officers as well as a suit against the fire company. Serving in a volunteer fire department does not provide immunity from making good choices with regard to safety of firefighters.
    All interesting info but how does it answer any of his questions?

    Turn out gear is repaired all the time when the damage isn't so severe as to "destroy" it to the point that repairs are impossible. My second to last set of gear at my career FD had over $400 in repair done to it. Everything from a bunker coat pocket being replaced to small holes, tears and burn holes being patched, to cuff repair. As long as the repairs meet the standards there is nothing wrong with getting gear fixed.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-26-2013 at 12:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astanford View Post
    The gear is only about 5 years old, How much do you think the liner would cost to be repaired? I think the nearest place that does NFPA compliant repairs is 2.5 hours away.
    With the internet, they can be 2.5 SECONDS away. Send them some GOOD QUALITY pictures of all the defects, with a ruler by the torn sections. They should be able to say with some certainty if they can repair the damage, and a ball park figure on the cost. "A picture is worth a thousand words".

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuh shise View Post
    astanford: TOG is designed to operate with three separate functions. Outer shell is designed to protect from snags, tears and punctures that could compromise the VAPOR BARRIER & THERMAL BARRIER or injure the wearer. Vapor barrier is supposed to keep moisture, steam and other vapors (maybe carcenogenic) away from your skin and street clothing. Thermal barrier is there to keep the vapor barrier (rubber ??) away from your skin to prevent burns. Steam will pass through the outer shell and condense on the vapor barrier. Condensing steam will raise the vapor barrier to 212 deg. F. so the thermal lining is absolutely essential to protect the wearer. Having described the function of the layers of TOG, and having spent about 1/3 of my career (now 45 years) operating with hip boots and a long coat, I can confidently say that a whole lot of interior work will not require an intact crotch. There have been times when it became necessary to bail out to prevent the "Roasting of Chestnuts" when working on a hot one. The bottom line is "This is 2013", and we do have state of the art protection in our TOG. Any fire company that allows their interior firefighters to operate with compromised TOG should receive a visit from Dewey, Cheatem & Howe and be slapped with a stiff law suit. On the analysis, allowing you to do interior work with the TOG as you describe would probably be considered "Willful and Wanton" disregard for a firefighters safety and would most likely result in personal liability lawsuit for many officers as well as a suit against the fire company. Serving in a volunteer fire department does not provide immunity from making good choices with regard to safety of firefighters.

    You missed what I had said, I currently have a brand new set of gear I am using for 3 Months to decide if I wanted to keep it (Would cost me $800 to keep), However the gear is a little awkward, tight and not very maneuverable not to mention to long on the legs so the feet hang past the boots about 2 inches and drag. The other gear with the rip in the crotch fits perfect but as stated the only imperfection is the crotch being torn up, I am just a little worried about some roasted nuts lol. We really dont run but maybe 15 calls a year, which might include 1-2 structures the rest being brush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astanford View Post
    You missed what I had said, I currently have a brand new set of gear I am using for 3 Months to decide if I wanted to keep it (Would cost me $800 to keep), However the gear is a little awkward, tight and not very maneuverable not to mention to long on the legs so the feet hang past the boots about 2 inches and drag. The other gear with the rip in the crotch fits perfect but as stated the only imperfection is the crotch being torn up, I am just a little worried about some roasted nuts lol. We really dont run but maybe 15 calls a year, which might include 1-2 structures the rest being brush.
    Do like I recommended above, wash the gear, take pictures and e-mail them to the repair facility. Or better yet, take your significant other on a road trip, dinner out, a movie, maybe even an overnight stay to the city where the repair facility is and stop in and show them the gear and see what they say.

    By the way, whose to say that your 1 or 2 structure fires a year aren't the ones where you get your nuts roasted...Get the gear fixed, send back the stuff that doesn't fit no matter how good the price is.
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    Get the gear repaired. It only takes one run to put you in the burn unit. The gear needs all parts in tact and well maintained in order to function as designed.

    I would also be surprised if your department let you respond with damaged gear. I believe there would be a liability issue.

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    Firedup: I have a tendency to come at questions by younger firefighters using the Socratic Method. Asking a question, rather than stating an answer that a more experienced firefighter (like captnjak) would immediately recognize and act upon. Frequently when teaching or mentoring younger, more recent high school graduates, I find there is a disconnect between stating what has been required learning and repeated verbatum to pass examinations, and the ability to take facts and draw logical conclusions. Some people might call this common sense, but it is really a learned ability. I thought that having this gentleman run the facts through his head once again might help with this logic. From my view, if the test gear is tight and restricts movement, then one would think this is not the TOG the gentleman should spend his money on, since in a few years, he will be like most of us with increasing girth, and the "Married Guy Spread." The used gear will provide inadequate protection in its current form. Some gear has been standardized, so that it might be possible to buy a set of vapor/thermals and snap into the existing shell. Your suggestion concerning repair is also a valid possibility, but under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should he fight fire with a compromised set of gear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuh shise View Post
    From my view, if the test gear is tight and restricts movement, then one would think this is not the TOG the gentleman should spend his money on, since in a few years, he will be like most of us with increasing girth, and the "Married Guy Spread." The used gear will provide inadequate protection in its current form. Some gear has been standardized, so that it might be possible to buy a set of vapor/thermals and snap into the existing shell. Your suggestion concerning repair is also a valid possibility, but under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should he fight fire with a compromised set of gear.
    Essentially what I said in my post above...
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    I dont get it....Why are YOU spending money on your own bunker gear?

    And since you are only in for 4.5 months, you have no business being anywhere close to a fire that would injure you should the thermal liner be compromised in some fashion.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    I dont get it....Why are YOU spending money on your own bunker gear?

    And since you are only in for 4.5 months, you have no business being anywhere close to a fire that would injure you should the thermal liner be compromised in some fashion.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I dont get it....Why are YOU spending money on your own bunker gear?

    And since you are only in for 4.5 months, you have no business being anywhere close to a fire that would injure you should the thermal liner be compromised in some fashion.
    What's the 4.5 months got to do with anything? Either he's in or he's not. A firefighter or not.

    Everyone has got to start interior sometime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I dont get it....Why are YOU spending money on your own bunker gear?

    And since you are only in for 4.5 months, you have no business being anywhere close to a fire that would injure you should the thermal liner be compromised in some fashion.
    Our department has 8 Members, of those 8 when a call drops you might see 3 if its M-F because of jobs, Of those 3 only 1 maybe (fat chance) 2 is able to go interior, so while I may not be manning the nozzle I would def be backing them on the hose due to us being understaffed and OSHA not allowing a single man inside a structure (29 CFR 1910.134). We are currently looking for members but when you have a town of 400 people and 97% of the town is not interested in helping it leaves a very small pool of candidates that you have to find, because not every person realizes I guess what the word volunteer means lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    What's the 4.5 months got to do with anything? Either he's in or he's not. A firefighter or not.

    Everyone has got to start interior sometime.

    Couldn't of said it better myself

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    Do you have Firefighter I?

    If the answer is no, then you dont belong on the interior.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Do you have Firefighter I?

    If the answer is no, then you dont belong on the interior.
    Ohio only requires a 36 card to be a Vollie. FF1 is optional. Having said that, I've seen a lot of guys with a 36 hour card that are good interior FF's. If you have an organization that does a lot of good training, you can produce some good firefighters without them having FF1, but of course, it's always good to have the formal certification, even if you've done approximately the same training outside of a certification class. It's more about the individual and the FD training than the actual Certs. A piece of paper is good for documentation, but as we all know, there's guys running around with all sorts of certifcations that can barely get water out of a hose.

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    This thread can be closed, Issue with thermal liner resolved, Ordering new liner from Company.

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    Ta da!!

    Mystery solved!
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