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Thread: The Battle Can

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    Default The Battle Can

    Great article on the use of a PWC for fire attack. Who carries one during a primary when a hose line isn't available?

    http://www.fireservicewarrior.com/20...-battle-can-2/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Truck crew carries at least one with them....whether there is a hose line available or not.....every call.
    RFDACM02 likes this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Love the can. I will take a PW can in on every fire alarm, and have seen or used a can on many fires that by the amount of smoke they produced looked like they would take a hoseline.

    So darn easy to carry, use and fill back up, why more people don't use them more often is beyond me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Love the can. I will take a PW can in on every fire alarm, and have seen or used a can on many fires that by the amount of smoke they produced looked like they would take a hoseline.

    So darn easy to carry, use and fill back up, why more people don't use them more often is beyond me.
    I have witnessed (while arriving on the first due truck company) an engine company guy running back to the truck to grab a PWC when they found fire on an alarm investigation. They ended up pulling an ABC off the wall and using it. You would think something like that would change the way people do things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    My former career job has the truck ALWAYS take PW with them on investigations. Often one of the engine guys will bring one too.

    My #1 POC FD takes a PW for every investigation.

    My #2 POC FD isn't quite there yet, but does sometimes take a PW on investigations.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I have witnessed (while arriving on the first due truck company) an engine company guy running back to the truck to grab a PWC when they found fire on an alarm investigation. They ended up pulling an ABC off the wall and using it. You would think something like that would change the way people do things.
    Oh, but doing the right thing is hard work. You mean you want me to take that heavy PW can with me for the 1 out of 100 times that I'll need to use it on a fire alarm? This is bull****! I just want to play Call of Duty, wash my truck and lift weights.
    ~Drew
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    As a fun drill in a burn structure (we use class A materials) use the can as the primary method of fire control. It surprises many how much fire it can hold or knock down, and generally convinces those who are reluctant to carry it that its of value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    My former career job has the truck ALWAYS take PW with them on investigations. Often one of the engine guys will bring one too.

    My #1 POC FD takes a PW for every investigation.

    My #2 POC FD isn't quite there yet, but does sometimes take a PW on investigations.
    Believe it or not my volunteer department is close to your #2 situation. At work the truck company doesn't carry ANY type of extinguisher; but we somehow made room for a Shop Vac.

    Things that make you shake your head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Can on the truck with class A (1/4 cup) added. Rescue has a can with an aspirating nozzle and 1 cup of AR-AFFF added.

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    I work on a quint. If we're investigating, or if we're not the first pump on scene, I'll grab the can. We use a touch of Palmolive.

    Had a transformer fire last night, and the first engine on scene was almost able to take care of it with a water can. They put a little extra pressure on it when they pulled up, and almost got it to reach the top of the power pole, which was at the top of a hill and about 20 feet away. Came up maybe 10 feet shy.

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    Very rarely do we pull the 'can, but when we do, there's always a concern when filling it; How far should you fill it until it's the right amount in relation to the plastic sleeve?

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    You fill it up anywhere between the top and bottom of the plastic sleeve. The sleeve prevents water from overfilling inside the can.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    I have oftened wondered why we don't just have a gallon milk jug that we fill 2 1/2 times and dump that in the extinguisher. It certainly would end the confusion about EXACTLY how much water is in the extinguisher. We do that with a cup marked for the exact amount of foam for the Can.
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    FyredUp, I bet if you designed some "cool" fire logo and labelled the empty milk jug....you could sell them!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    FyredUp, I bet if you designed some "cool" fire logo and labelled the empty milk jug....you could sell them!
    Paint the front of the jug black over red, put a cool "I walk where the Devil dances" logo on it and sell them for $377.99. I could make a killing!!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QH9LWNW1lc

    exterior attack with a can gotta see this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhode House View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QH9LWNW1lc

    exterior attack with a can gotta see this
    To the younger members of this forum:

    Please don't think you can pull this off from the interior with an unvented fire. You will not be knocking down full rooms of fire with the can. This was an impressive video but the vast majority of the heat energy vented out the window; it was not cooled by the can.
    The can is a great tool and should always be carried IMO. Preventing or delaying vertical extension, holding the fire inside a room and extinguishing incipient fires are all great uses of the can.

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    I pull out the Ol' PWC on every fire alarm, and use it on all small fires where pulling a line is ridiculous. Sometimes firefighters underestimate the amount of fire a can will put out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    To the younger members of this forum:

    Please don't think you can pull this off from the interior with an unvented fire. You will not be knocking down full rooms of fire with the can. This was an impressive video but the vast majority of the heat energy vented out the window; it was not cooled by the can.
    The can is a great tool and should always be carried IMO. Preventing or delaying vertical extension, holding the fire inside a room and extinguishing incipient fires are all great uses of the can.
    I was thinking that the can would work a lot better in an unvented room, the steam created would be less likely to escape and would be able to do work in the room for a little longed. The big concern for me in this video is what exactly is burning? Is this a 1403 burn with pallets and cardboard burning, or is this a burn using the typical synthetic materials we actually find at a structure fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golzy12 View Post
    I was thinking that the can would work a lot better in an unvented room, the steam created would be less likely to escape and would be able to do work in the room for a little longed. The big concern for me in this video is what exactly is burning? Is this a 1403 burn with pallets and cardboard burning, or is this a burn using the typical synthetic materials we actually find at a structure fire?
    Yes, but an unvented room would mean WAY more heat energy present. Can would quickly be overwhelmed. I was referring to actual real world fire conditions.

    IMO, steam is more a byproduct of extinguishment than it is a method of extinguishment. Don't really know the science involved on that one.
    Last edited by captnjak; 12-16-2013 at 12:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Yes, but an unvented room would mean WAY more heat energy present. Can would quickly be overwhelmed. I was referring to actual real world fire conditions.

    IMO, steam is more a byproduct of extinguishment than it is a method of extinguishment. Don't really know the science involved on that one.
    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. A ventilated fire will typically have a higher heat release rate (HRR) than a similar fire at the same stage that is unvented. A single fully involved room is almost always going to be ventilation limited. Any ventilation opening made to this fire without adequate water application will eventually see an increased HRR.

    I think steam will help in extinguishing the fire, that is the whole theory behind Layman's Indirect attack. Use a wide fog pattern in an enclosed area with high heat, the water turns to steam and you let it soak for a few minutes. If you vent the area too soon, the steam will vent and won't have the desired effect. Granted, we aren't creating a ton of steam with 2.5 gallons of water, but if that's all the water I've got I would want to use it as efficiently as possible. If for some reason I wanted to try to knock down a fully involved room with the can, I would call for ventilation to be withheld, discharge the can at the seat of the fire and then get the door closed to let the steam soak.

    A more realistic and practical scenario would be to use the can to hit any fire rolling out of the fully involved room and pull the door closed. Let the door confine the fire for you and save the limited amount of water you have. Call for a line and let them put the fire out. If the line is delayed, the left over water in the can can be used to slow any fire spread through the closed door. If you dumped your entire 2.5 gallons on the fire, pulled the door closed, didn't get the fire totally out and realized the line was delayed then you may be in trouble. If the fire redevelops in the room and starts to burn through the door you have nothing to stop it. When water is limited you have to use it effectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golzy12 View Post
    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. A ventilated fire will typically have a higher heat release rate (HRR) than a similar fire at the same stage that is unvented. A single fully involved room is almost always going to be ventilation limited. Any ventilation opening made to this fire without adequate water application will eventually see an increased HRR.

    I think steam will help in extinguishing the fire, that is the whole theory behind Layman's Indirect attack. Use a wide fog pattern in an enclosed area with high heat, the water turns to steam and you let it soak for a few minutes. If you vent the area too soon, the steam will vent and won't have the desired effect. Granted, we aren't creating a ton of steam with 2.5 gallons of water, but if that's all the water I've got I would want to use it as efficiently as possible. If for some reason I wanted to try to knock down a fully involved room with the can, I would call for ventilation to be withheld, discharge the can at the seat of the fire and then get the door closed to let the steam soak.

    A more realistic and practical scenario would be to use the can to hit any fire rolling out of the fully involved room and pull the door closed. Let the door confine the fire for you and save the limited amount of water you have. Call for a line and let them put the fire out. If the line is delayed, the left over water in the can can be used to slow any fire spread through the closed door. If you dumped your entire 2.5 gallons on the fire, pulled the door closed, didn't get the fire totally out and realized the line was delayed then you may be in trouble. If the fire redevelops in the room and starts to burn through the door you have nothing to stop it. When water is limited you have to use it effectively.
    Sure the ventilated fire will have a higher heat release rate. But most of that heat will be going out the window. Whereas the unvented fire will have a great deal of accumulated heat energy.

    You mention trying to knock down a fully involved room with the can by hitting the seat of the fire. What seat? The room's fully involved. There is no seat. Or should I say the whole room is the seat. You've lost me entirely with this one.

    I don't understand the idea of the steam "soaking". I've not heard of Layman or his theory but I suspect I know why it's just a theory. When water hits fire it absorbs energy, some of which is used up turning the water into steam. Energy is transferred from the fire to the water. The steam may provide a certain amount of smothering ability but this is not how water extinguishes fire. Either we use enough water to stop the chain reaction that is fire or we don't. If we don't it's not going to be extinguished no matter how long the steam "soaks".

    I've gotta say though that your final paragraph is pretty much perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Sure the ventilated fire will have a higher heat release rate. But most of that heat will be going out the window. Whereas the unvented fire will have a great deal of accumulated heat energy.

    You mention trying to knock down a fully involved room with the can by hitting the seat of the fire. What seat? The room's fully involved. There is no seat. Or should I say the whole room is the seat. You've lost me entirely with this one.

    I don't understand the idea of the steam "soaking". I've not heard of Layman or his theory but I suspect I know why it's just a theory. When water hits fire it absorbs energy, some of which is used up turning the water into steam. Energy is transferred from the fire to the water. The steam may provide a certain amount of smothering ability but this is not how water extinguishes fire. Either we use enough water to stop the chain reaction that is fire or we don't. If we don't it's not going to be extinguished no matter how long the steam "soaks".

    I've gotta say though that your final paragraph is pretty much perfect.
    At least we are on the same page for my last paragraph!

    Maybe saying I would hit it at the seat was bad wording. I would aim for the lower part of the room, concentrating less on attacking the burning gasses and more on the solids. Either way it sounds like we can both agree it isn't an ideal attack method.

    Lloyd Layman is the "Father of Fog" he is the guy behind RECEO-VS and the indirect method of attack (not a theory). The wrote the books Attacking and Extinguishing Interior Fires and Fire Fighting Tactics both still cited regularly. More about him here http://onlyminutesaway.com/wp/history/lloyd-layman/

    Norman's Fire Officers Handbook goes into pretty good detail about the indirect method of attack.

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    Interesting guy. Thanks for the link.

    I have to admit that I don't know much factual information about fog for structural firefighting. No one, past or present, in my department has ever seemed to have had any use for it.

    But that alone probably says a lot.

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