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Thread: Most Important FireFighting Question You want Answered: Please Suggest

  1. #61
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    Right now the city runs 4 members per shift at 3 stations plus a BC and then call members responding in on every tone.

    They operate 2 stations w/ 1 full-time member each and Central Station with 2 members and the BC. So they would have to add staff to cover our stations, and the money simply isn't there to pay for any career staffing in our district.

    As I have stated the city has no interest .. none in annexing us. In fact, we just annexed a small chunk of the district that lies between us and the city. If they had any interest in coming our way the city would have annexed that chunk, as they had first shot at it, not us.

    The amount of money that they would pick up in the contract would allow them to hire nobody, and would barley cover expenses, as I have stated, I doubt the citizens would go for it as the rating would drop from an 4 to a 9 if it was covered under contract.

    Trust me .. They have no interest in taking over a 100-square mile district that generates no significant revenue. None. And the city has zero interest as well as they would have to expand some very expensive city services assuming that they could convince the residents to pay 4x the taxes they are paying now.

    As far as the other 2 stations they DO have staffing ..... Any member can drive to those stations when there is a call in that area and pick up that apparatus. In fact, members that happen to be in a position to drive up to those stations are expected to.

    We have a bordering primarily career combination department that plays the same "game". They have 9 stations and staff two. Periodically a volunteer will pick up a piece at one of the 7 other stations but that is rare. The combo department to our south also has multiple stations but only staffs one. They have a few more volunteers but still there are stations in areas where no volunteers live and those trucks rarely get on the air, even for runs in that area.

    The fact is those citizens in that area know that it's a VFD as we have sent 2 recruiting mailers in the last year to every home in the district. Nobody in those areas have stepped up to the plate to volunteer. We have an AMA agreement with the VFD bordering that area to the north, but they have limited members and very limited interior manpower, so we have made arrangements to attempt to augment our manpower in that area..
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-31-2013 at 05:25 PM.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I've just been playing a little devil's advocate with this stuff. But there is no real comparison to be made. Rigs in my department are out the door in about 15 seconds.
    I know that the vast majority of departments are doing a great job at providing fire/emergency service. My family and home are protected by volunteers. Financial realities dictate that there will not be permanently staffed fire companies across the country.
    I just think it's odd the way the public views the fire service in general. We're a nuisance until they need us.
    I disagree.

    I have been involved in some very well supported departments.

    My current combo department has sufficient funding and has it's milage reapproved every 10 years with no issues. I don't know of a district in this parish that has had an issue with have milages approved.

    My VFD has the highest milage in the parish plus they supported a 10 mil-10 year bond 6 years ago for apparatus and a station 6 years ago. And again, I know of no districts that have problems with having funding taxes approved.

    I know that there are many VFDs that have inadequate resources. That being said, the reality is thqat in most of these places the community resources simply don't exist to supply the members with up to date PPE, SCBA, communications and apparatus.

    A community of 600, 6,000 or even 10,000, unless there is a significant will likely never be able to generate enough tax revenue to purchase the equipment as frequently as needed to keep that equipment up to date. The costs for that gear are simply too high.

    As far as staffing, the fact is that the vast majority of the fire departments in this country simply do not need career members. There simply isn't the run volume nor the ancillary required responsibilities to justify career staffing beyond possibly one or two administrative and/or maintenance personnel. And even if they did, in most of those places the revenue simply never will exist to hire those required members. Again, the funding will never exist in that community of 600, 6,000 or even 10,000 to hire an engine crew. That's nothing but basic math.

    As far as taxation, there are places where the taxes are quiet minimal and barely support a skeleton sheriff's/police agency, and the community has no history of funding fire with tax revenue. Is that right? Maybe. maybe not. But the bottom line is that it's unlikely that in many of these places the community will support taxation for fire operations.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-31-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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  3. #63
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Right now the city runs 4 members per shift at 3 stations plus a BC and then call members responding in on every tone.

    They operate 2 stations w/ 1 full-time member each and Central Station with 2 members and the BC. So they would have to add staff to cover our stations, and the money simply isn't there to pay for any career staffing in our district.

    So every time they respond into your vfd's area they are doing callbacks and paying overtime? BRILLIANT plan...So the city is not only giving you their on duty crew they are aying overtime to cover while they are fighting YOUR fire. WOW! I don't see the taxpayers of the city being bothered by paying for essentially your fire protection.

    As I have stated the city has no interest .. none in annexing us. In fact, we just annexed a small chunk of the district that lies between us and the city. If they had any interest in coming our way the city would have annexed that chunk, as they had first shot at it, not us.

    I NEVER said they would annex the land mass. You really need to stop lying about what I have said.

    The amount of money that they would pick up in the contract would allow them to hire nobody, and would barley cover expenses, as I have stated, I doubt the citizens would go for it as the rating would drop from an 4 to a 9 if it was covered under contract.

    I'll bet it would cover the overtime costs they have every time they fight your fires for you.

    Trust me .. They have no interest in taking over a 100-square mile district that generates no significant revenue. None. And the city has zero interest as well as they would have to expand some very expensive city services assuming that they could convince the residents to pay 4x the taxes they are paying now.

    You again are putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said they would annex the land mass or supply anything other than contracted fire service.

    As far as the other 2 stations they DO have staffing ..... Any member can drive to those stations when there is a call in that area and pick up that apparatus. In fact, members that happen to be in a position to drive up to those stations are expected to.

    So ONCE AGAIN, you are changing your story. YOU said there were no volunteers anywhere near those 2 stations and if the rigs from there were needed people were sent from elsewhere to get them. See Bobby this is what happens when you make schitt up, you have to remember it or you just keep contradicting yourself.

    We have a bordering primarily career combination department that plays the same "game". They have 9 stations and staff two. Periodically a volunteer will pick up a piece at one of the 7 other stations but that is rare. The combo department to our south also has multiple stations but only staffs one. They have a few more volunteers but still there are stations in areas where no volunteers live and those trucks rarely get on the air, even for runs in that area.

    So the pathetic ratings system in LA allows you to play games with people's lives and property by having stations that no volunteers live by or normally respond to as long as once a year a truck responds out of there. It would seem that YOU would lobby to change absolute BS like that, unless the truth is you are comfrtable playing loose and fast with people's lives.

    The fact is those citizens in that area know that it's a VFD as we have sent 2 recruiting mailers in the last year to every home in the district. Nobody in those areas have stepped up to the plate to volunteer. We have an AMA agreement with the VFD bordering that area to the north, but they have limited members and very limited interior manpower, so we have made arrangements to attempt to augment our manpower in that area..

    Again, maybe if your standards for membership were more than walking upright you might get some new members. But apparently anyone can join and even if they never show up for training or calls they count as a member. Must be a ratings thing. Here warm bodies don't mean crap if they don't attend training.
    Just more BS and excuses. Now could you go away so we could talk about fundraising again instead of your pathetic nonsense.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  4. #64
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Maybe in your corner of the world raising taxes to the point where we are funded fully would work, but not here. And, I might add, if the population can afford the added tax, then I would not have an issue with it. That is not the case here. Just because it cannot be bourn by the population does not mean that they deserve fire protection any less than the more affluent areas.

    Why do you feel those that cannot afford higher taxes should not be afforded this protection? Shouldn't it be provided by a charitable organization that's purpose is to support those people and is willing to do the work necessary to carry out this function? If the taxes that can be afforded are then given to that organization not help them, all the better. Those organizations do exist and they are the volunteer departments (at least that is what we call them around here).
    I think you're missing the point. The suggestion is not necessarily to raise taxes to fund fire protection, but to take the public safety aspect of fire protection as seriously as every other function of City government and properly fund it before tax dollars are spent on other nonessential services or projects.
    FyredUp and slackjawedyokel like this.
    Robert Kramer
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #65
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My current combo department has sufficient funding and has it's milage reapproved every 10 years with no issues. I don't know of a district in this parish that has had an issue with have milages approved.

    My VFD has the highest milage in the parish plus they supported a 10 mil-10 year bond 6 years ago for apparatus and a station 6 years ago. And again, I know of no districts that have problems with having funding taxes approved.
    So how and why to you come up with the myriad of excuses for why your fire department sucks?
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  6. #66
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    lafire doesnt need tax funding or fundraising for proper ppe or scbas.. they dont do interior attack.. give em heavy cotton/nomex blend pants and jackets and theyll be fine

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    lafire doesnt need tax funding or fundraising for proper ppe or scbas.. they dont do interior attack.. give em heavy cotton/nomex blend pants and jackets and theyll be fine
    It would be hard to look the part with out those items.
    Not worried about acting the part, just looking the part.


    Sorry guys, I know I should not bring stuff like that up, but being about three quarters screwball, I could not help myself.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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  8. #68
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Question: If you are not intending to enter a building, be on a RIT crew, or otherwise get near the heat and smoke, why are you wearing an scba? That is just one less bottle available for me and my crew.
    Question: If you will not help in any capacity at a MVA, why would you insist on being on the first out engine?
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  9. #69
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    Question: Other than training, truck checks and maintenance, responses, and the budget, what else should be discussed at a fire dept. meeting? Is the color of my flipping brush pants really the biggest problem facing the dept.?

    Okay, sorry, I'm done now.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  10. #70
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    ...but to take the public safety aspect of fire protection as seriously as every other function of City government and properly fund it before tax dollars are spent on other nonessential services or projects.
    Two problems there - one, we don't all live in cities. Some of us live in rural townships with populations under 1000 where the only other services provided by the township are a town clerk (licenses, permits, etc) and maybe a half dozen guys in the highway department. I know of one township with just two or three. Police is usually either the county sheriff or state police. Fire protection may already be one of the biggest line items in the budget and an increase might well severly impact those residents financially.

    Second, who's to decide what's essential and what's not? If you're a small department running a couple dozen calls a year, you may not be as important to the public as the community center building they use numerous times a year.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  11. #71
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Two problems there - one, we don't all live in cities. Some of us live in rural townships with populations under 1000 where the only other services provided by the township are a town clerk (licenses, permits, etc) and maybe a half dozen guys in the highway department. I know of one township with just two or three. Police is usually either the county sheriff or state police. Fire protection may already be one of the biggest line items in the budget and an increase might well severly impact those residents financially.

    Oh no! You are a small rural community of under 1000. Um guess what? My village is 717, with 200 plus of those residents in the nursing home. I guarantee you we are NOT the largest line item in the budget and never have been. Our budget can cover the bare essentials if we budget carefully. We fund raise for things like trucks and specialized equipment. AND I STILL DON'T LIKE IT!!
    Second, who's to decide what's essential and what's not? If you're a small department running a couple dozen calls a year, you may not be as important to the public as the community center building they use numerous times a year.

    Okay if you are saying that the FD isn't considered essential to the citizens then why remain in operation? Sorry, and you can call me selfish, a cold hearted bastard, or anything else you want, but if the community as a whole doesn't view the FD as an essential service then why in the F*** should I risk my life for them?

    Dude, I have to tell you you have a severely warped view of this topic. I am not saying these places need to buy $500K engines or $1000K ladder trucks, or any such nonsense, but they for damn sure should be expected to supply proper PPE and SCBA if they expect me to risk my life. Seriously, YOU are part of the problem making excuses for you having to fundraise to supply emergency services to the community.

    WOW! Your ideas may help perpetuate your FD into getting more of nothing for years to come.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  12. #72
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    My wife would like to know why when I get a free moment I go to work for the state digging fire line or go to the fire house to put on an SCBA and work out. She wonders why our bathroom sink still does not work.
    I might be a crappy firefighter, but it is looking like i'm a crappier husband.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  13. #73
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    My wife would like to know why when I get a free moment I go to work for the state digging fire line or go to the fire house to put on an SCBA and work out. She wonders why our bathroom sink still does not work.
    I might be a crappy firefighter, but it is looking like i'm a crappier husband.
    Brother, let me say something to you heart to heart. If your marriage is important to you then don't let being a volunteer firefighter destroy it. You have to balance them and lean more towards your family.

    If I were you, first thing tomorrow I would go get whatever I needed to to fix that bathroom sink and fix the darn thing.
    rm1524 likes this.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Brother, let me say something to you heart to heart. If your marriage is important to you then don't let being a volunteer firefighter destroy it. You have to balance them and lean more towards your family.

    If I were you, first thing tomorrow I would go get whatever I needed to to fix that bathroom sink and fix the darn thing.
    Work.
    Family.
    Fire Department.

    In that order.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #75
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    So every time they respond into your vfd's area they are doing callbacks and paying overtime?

    No ... They are paying their call members a flat rate per run.

    BRILLIANT plan...So the city is not only giving you their on duty crew they are aying overtime to cover while they are fighting YOUR fire. WOW! I don't see the taxpayers of the city being bothered by paying for essentially your fire protection.

    Given that we will give them more mutual aid in a typical year than they give us, primarily for water supply, it shouldn't bother them.

    I NEVER said they would annex the land mass. You really need to stop lying about what I have said.

    And as I have stated the voters in our district likely would have no interest in going from a 4 to a 9 as that is the rating they would automatically receive if covered by a municipal department under contract.


    I'll bet it would cover the overtime costs they have every time they fight your fires for you.

    They would also have to go out and cur trees in our area after the storm which is something they don't do, as well as handle the other runs. Ad in the other calls and I doubt they would walk away with very much money. Certainly not enough to cover insurance, fuel, vehicle maintenance and apparatus replacement.


    You again are putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said they would annex the land mass or supply anything other than contracted fire service.

    See above.


    So ONCE AGAIN, you are changing your story. YOU said there were no volunteers anywhere near those 2 stations and if the rigs from there were needed people were sent from elsewhere to get them. See Bobby this is what happens when you make schitt up, you have to remember it or you just keep contradicting yourself.

    Currently we do not have any volunteers living in those areas. The demographic of the area tends to be a much older population.

    However, any of our volunteers can respond to those stations, and do, from the southern part of the district when we get a call in that area to get those apparatus up.

    It's very typical for me to respond to the scene, or one of 3 stations from my home depending on the location of the call, type of call/apparatus needed and where other members are responding from.



    So the pathetic ratings system in LA allows you to play games with people's lives and property by having stations that no volunteers live by or normally respond to as long as once a year a truck responds out of there. It would seem that YOU would lobby to change absolute BS like that, unless the truth is you are comfrtable playing loose and fast with people's lives.

    Why is it BS? Members can always respond via POV from other parts of the district to that station or may happen to be closer to one of those stations if they are travelling thru the district.

    Again, maybe if your standards for membership were more than walking upright you might get some new members. But apparently anyone can join and even if they never show up for training or calls they count as a member. Must be a ratings thing. Here warm bodies don't mean crap if they don't attend training.

    We have already discussed that.

    I would love to have an higher training attendance standard but I can live with 50%, and most of our active members make that.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    My wife would like to know why when I get a free moment I go to work for the state digging fire line or go to the fire house to put on an SCBA and work out. She wonders why our bathroom sink still does not work.
    I might be a crappy firefighter, but it is looking like i'm a crappier husband.
    As somebody who's first marriage failed, in part due to the time I was spending at the fire station or doing stuff for the department, take care of your marriage first.

    Yes, the FD is important, but as Fryed said, keep things in balance.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #77
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Work.
    Family.
    Fire Department.

    In that order.
    Family.
    Work.
    Fire Department.


    You can always find another job....can't choose another family.
    HuntPA likes this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  18. #78
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay if you are saying that the FD isn't considered essential to the citizens then why remain in operation? Sorry, and you can call me selfish, a cold hearted bastard, or anything else you want, but if the community as a whole doesn't view the FD as an essential service then why in the F*** should I risk my life for them?

    Maybe this is the disconnect. I am in the department because I want to give back to my community and help where I can. I am willing to go into a burning building to help them whether they can afford to give to the department or not.

    I also realize that part of my department is the requirement that we raise enough money so that we can have compliant PPE and trucks that will start and function on scene. It is not that they feel that we are not an essential service, they just cannot afford any more.

    The township does not provide any services that I would consider non-essential, or even less essential than our fire protection. They have a very small budget to maintain many miles of dirt roads (not enough to pave or even tar and chip) so that they remain passible not only to the people that live here, but also to our fire trucks. The only other service they provide is a sewer to the village. That is a necessity as there is not enough land with good enough percolation for on site systems. So it was either the new system or raw sewage in people's yards. They make do with used equipment, low pay, and trying to find every grant they can think of just like us.


    Dude, I have to tell you you have a severely warped view of this topic. I am not saying these places need to buy $500K engines or $1000K ladder trucks, or any such nonsense, but they for damn sure should be expected to supply proper PPE and SCBA if they expect me to risk my life. Seriously, YOU are part of the problem making excuses for you having to fundraise to supply emergency services to the community.


    WOW! Your ideas may help perpetuate your FD into getting more of nothing for years to come.
    The engine we run cost less than $150,000 when brand new in 1986, and was less than 1/3 that when we bought it used. The only department in the city with any sort of areal device is the city and that could only be justified through obtaining a grant for funding a used one.

    By the way, I am meeting with my state rep and senator to try and get the little state funding we do get increased through a change in the funding formula. Between the $18k in taxes and $5k in relief, we are able to pay for gas, sewer, electric, garbage, insurance, and some upkeep on apparatus. Everything else is through fundraising.

    If you are ever in northwest PA, please let me know. I would love to show you around the area so you could better understand, because it is very obvious that I am unable to do so through this conversation.

    Your idea of having the citizens fund (which would be through taxes) our department enough to cover utilities, truck maintenance (not even replacement), building maintenance, PPE, and basic tools (hose, nozzles, radios, and an axe or 2) would not and can not work here as the tax base here cannot support the increase in taxes. It is that simple. Not that it wouldn't be better, more desirable, or anything else, it just can not be done.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Family.
    Work.
    Fire Department.


    You can always find another job....can't choose another family.
    ...............True
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Brother, let me say something to you heart to heart. If your marriage is important to you then don't let being a volunteer firefighter destroy it. You have to balance them and lean more towards your family.

    If I were you, first thing tomorrow I would go get whatever I needed to to fix that bathroom sink and fix the darn thing.
    Amen. I would have given up my FD job in a heartbeat if I thought my wife might leave me because of it.

    There are other jobs.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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