Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 3456789 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 238
Like Tree51Likes

Thread: Most Important FireFighting Question You want Answered: Please Suggest

  1. #101
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Where have I ever said that they should be let go ?

    I have only stated that they would have been a far most cost-efficaint hire if they were hired as daytime personnel not shift personnel.
    You have numerous times argued against more staffing, and you have said with vollies around the station during the day the work would probably get done without them.

    By the way college boy the word is efficient not efficant.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-03-2013 at 08:56 AM.
    slackjawedyokel likes this.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...


  2. #102
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    I'll agree with the pretending statement....but they are what they are.

    My dispatch policies are just fine....it's not my Department that I'm talking about. We have responded to them as FAST sometimes.

    Change it? Been this way at least 20 years....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #103
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You have numerous times argued against more staffing, and you have said with vollies around the station during the day the work would probably get done without them.

    By the way college boy the word is efficient not efficant.
    Yes, I have argued against more paid staffing at my combo department as for response operations, especially evenings and weekends. It simply was not needed during those time periods.

    However, it could have been justified on the daytime side to conduct admin, maintainence and janitoral functions.

    I still believe that hiring the three members that we hired for shift slots could have been better utilized if they were hired for 12-hour daytime shifts. The other option would have been to simply use that funding to fund 2 additional part-time daytime slots, which would have saved the money that we currently spend on vacation, benefits and costs related to full-time members.

    I never stated that the members that we did hire should now be fired.

    By the way, as I predicted, the hiring of the second shift firefighter has reduced the number of volunteers responding o evening EMS runs, in great part because there is limited need for supplemental members on those runs.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #104
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, I have argued against more paid staffing at my combo department as for response operations, especially evenings and weekends. It simply was not needed during those time periods.

    However, it could have been justified on the daytime side to conduct admin, maintainence and janitoral functions.

    I still believe that hiring the three members that we hired for shift slots could have been better utilized if they were hired for 12-hour daytime shifts. The other option would have been to simply use that funding to fund 2 additional part-time daytime slots, which would have saved the money that we currently spend on vacation, benefits and costs related to full-time members.

    I never stated that the members that we did hire should now be fired.

    By the way, as I predicted, the hiring of the second shift firefighter has reduced the number of volunteers responding o evening EMS runs, in great part because there is limited need for supplemental members on those runs.
    As you have stated many times, YOU are not a command officer and have no power over those decisions made by the chief. Yet here you are, ONCE AGAIN, questioning his decision on an international forum.

    If your vollies are staying home and not responding how is it the paid guys fault? If you still need vollies then the ones that still respond are the true dedicted ones and the ones that don't are fair weather vollies that aren't as dependable.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  5. #105
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As you have stated many times, YOU are not a command officer and have no power over those decisions made by the chief. Yet here you are, ONCE AGAIN, questioning his decision on an international forum.

    If your vollies are staying home and not responding how is it the paid guys fault? If you still need vollies then the ones that still respond are the true dedicted ones and the ones that don't are fair weather vollies that aren't as dependable.

    Yup. And again, it was his call, but I guess I see the need, and the role of paid staff on our still primarily volunteer combo department differently. I see us drifting just a little bit closer to us becoming a department where the vollies become less important, and that day scares me as it will change the quality of the fire protection that the district enjoys.

    I am not blaming the paid staff, but I am saying that since we have hired the second shift firefighter, there is far less need for them to respond (4 paid staff including the 2-member ambulance crew v, the previous 3 paid responders on-scene) on overnight EMS runs as 90% of the time the expanded paid staff can easily handle the run.

    They have figured out that there is little for them to do so why get up at 2AM?

    The fact is that as you hire more folks there will be less volunteer participation.

    They still show up in very good numbers for MVAs and fires, so the response to those types of calls has not been affected by the additional paid firefighter.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #106
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    9,980

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I dislike career members who believe that career fire protection is the only effective form of fire protection and functioning volunteers and/or volunteer departments should be replaced or heavily supplemented with career members.
    While there may be VFD's that are very capable, I'm sure (after reading your nonsensical rants) yours isn't one of them.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #107
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup. And again, it was his call, but I guess I see the need, and the role of paid staff on our still primarily volunteer combo department differently. I see us drifting just a little bit closer to us becoming a department where the vollies become less important, and that day scares me as it will change the quality of the fire protection that the district enjoys.

    I am not blaming the paid staff, but I am saying that since we have hired the second shift firefighter, there is far less need for them to respond (4 paid staff including the 2-member ambulance crew v, the previous 3 paid responders on-scene) on overnight EMS runs as 90% of the time the expanded paid staff can easily handle the run.

    They have figured out that there is little for them to do so why get up at 2AM?

    The fact is that as you hire more folks there will be less volunteer participation.

    They still show up in very good numbers for MVAs and fires, so the response to those types of calls has not been affected by the additional paid firefighter.
    So instead of crying about it how about coming up with a schedule for the vollies? Instead of ALL of them having to respond for that 2 am call only to find out ALL of them aren't needed how about 2 or 3 guys a night signed up for ems calls. For fires and MVAs a full response would still be called for.

    Frankly, a system that expects every volunteer member to respond in at 2 am for an ambulance call is archaic and stupid. It wouldn't be long for me to decide not to show up for those ems calls either if everytime one went out somebody closer to the station beat me there and I got out of bed for nothing.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  8. #108
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I never thought of it that way. I guess we really are enabling the community to keep us doing bake sales.
    I long for the day that all fire departments, vollie, or otherwise, are fully staffed, fully equipped and fully funded and the Air Force has to have a bake sale to buy a bomber.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  9. #109
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...

    They have figured out that there is little for them to do so why get up at 2AM?

    The fact is that as you hire more folks there will be less volunteer participation.

    They still show up in very good numbers for MVAs and fires, so the response to those types of calls has not been affected by the additional paid firefighter.
    Picking and choosing what calls to respond to is not the fault of having paid staff.

    That is the fault of volunteers being there for the wrong reasons.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #110
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Picking and choosing what calls to respond to is not the fault of having paid staff.

    That is the fault of volunteers being there for the wrong reasons.
    The fact is that for most EMS calls you don't need more than 4 sets of hands. The volunteers that were responding to EMS calls when there were only three sets of paid hands have figured that out.

    They still respond for the difficulty breathing, cardiac and other EMS calls that sound like they will require more manpower, but for the majority of the calls volunteer response is down.

    And yes, that is the natural reaction to having more paid staff on scene and the reduction in need for supplemental volunteer personnel.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #111
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So instead of crying about it how about coming up with a schedule for the vollies? Instead of ALL of them having to respond for that 2 am call only to find out ALL of them aren't needed how about 2 or 3 guys a night signed up for ems calls. For fires and MVAs a full response would still be called for.

    Frankly, a system that expects every volunteer member to respond in at 2 am for an ambulance call is archaic and stupid. It wouldn't be long for me to decide not to show up for those ems calls either if everytime one went out somebody closer to the station beat me there and I got out of bed for nothing.
    We have a zone system where only the members in that zone respond for most EMS calls. There are a few types of calls where we expect members in neighboring zones to respond in. The system actually works quite well.

    I'm simply not a fan of schedules for volunteers. Too many things c an change from week to week or even day to day to make them simply unworkable.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #112
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have a zone system where only the members in that zone respond for most EMS calls. There are a few types of calls where we expect members in neighboring zones to respond in. The system actually works quite well.

    If it works so well then why are you complaining about the paid guys taking the calls and the vollies not responding in like they used to? Because your comment here doesn't jive with your previous crying.

    I'm simply not a fan of schedules for volunteers. Too many things c an change from week to week or even day to day to make them simply unworkable.
    Golly I don't know how the volly EMS services do it around here then because they ALL have schedules. For many it is online and you sign in and sign up for when you are available. If you need to take off it is YOUR responsibility to find a replacement. Either way YOU as a a member sign up you aren't assigned a shift. It works quite well. Frankly, I think your plan of counting on a mass response for an ambulance call is idiotic and wastefull and again if I lived farther out and every time I responded the ambulance was full or gone I would probably stop coming for those calls too. I think the ridiculous plan of expecting that mass response is causing people not to respond more than the paid guys being there. No one likes their time wasted, especially in the middle of the night when they have to go to work the next morning. It would seem YOU, of all people, would get that since you preach the they have to go to work to support their families for one of your excuses elsewhere.

    Again you complain and cry abut the vollies being cut out, and I offer a solution and all you do is your usual...make excuses why it won't work. Let it go then and when the vollies stop coming then you can cry about that too.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  13. #113
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I long for the day that all fire departments, vollie, or otherwise, are fully staffed, fully equipped and fully funded and the Air Force has to have a bake sale to buy a bomber.
    Your bones will be dust and it still won't have happened...
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  14. #114
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Golly I don't know how the volly EMS services do it around here then because they ALL have schedules. For many it is online and you sign in and sign up for when you are available. If you need to take off it is YOUR responsibility to find a replacement. Either way YOU as a a member sign up you aren't assigned a shift. It works quite well. Frankly, I think your plan of counting on a mass response for an ambulance call is idiotic and wastefull and again if I lived farther out and every time I responded the ambulance was full or gone I would probably stop coming for those calls too. I think the ridiculous plan of expecting that mass response is causing people not to respond more than the paid guys being there. No one likes their time wasted, especially in the middle of the night when they have to go to work the next morning. It would seem YOU, of all people, would get that since you preach the they have to go to work to support their families for one of your excuses elsewhere.

    Again you complain and cry abut the vollies being cut out, and I offer a solution and all you do is your usual...make excuses why it won't work. Let it go then and when the vollies stop coming then you can cry about that too.
    Fully aware that WEMS schedules duty crews.... Every area that I have worked in with volunteer EMS has scheduled their duty crews as well.

    I haven't seen it work especially well on the departments that I am familiar with that have tried it.

    The fact is that this discussion has nothing to do with scheduling as often the members are available to respond. It's about the fact that the second shift member has significantly reduced the NEED for the volunteer responders to respond.

    We never had a "mass response" policy except for incidents involving cardiac, codes and trauma. That's simply not the issue that I am discussing. The zone response policy would typically bring in 2-3 volunteer EMS personnel for 90% of our EMS runs.

    One could argue that maybe that's a good thing as now the volunteers can respond to fewer routine EMS runs, which puts less of a demand on them. But I would argue that now they feel like they have less value as they are needed less, and in the end, that will hurt the volunteer side. As the larger paid staff handles more and more of the "routine" calls the volunteers will naturally feel less needed, and a likely result of that will be less involvement.

    I have seen it in several cases in this area. And it is a natural reaction to more paid staff. And yes, that concerns me, and was a fear that I had when we hired the second paid shift member.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #115
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Career "Department" near me responds with 1 FF on an engine. Thats it. Based on radio messages, he decides to have the volunteer department dispatched as well.

    Sorry....but you are wrong. That 1 FF on an engine by himself is not offering better protection. He is actually delaying a larger response as it's not dispatched till he calls for it.

    Yes, it's a very odd/unique situation. But leads to that rule of never using "always" in the fire service.
    So is the "career" department and "volunteer department" in the same town?

    Are they two separate organizations or separate divisions of the same department?

    If so, are they both funded by the town?

    Who is in charge at an incident?

    It sounds like a confusing system if they are actually 2 separate departments.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  16. #116
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fully aware that WEMS schedules duty crews.... Every area that I have worked in with volunteer EMS has scheduled their duty crews as well.

    I haven't seen it work especially well on the departments that I am familiar with that have tried it.

    Yet in your bizzaro portion of the universe it simply can't work? Right? That is what you are saying isn't it? Because your area is so unique that no tried and proven system anywhere else could work there. Geezus Bobby you are the biggest obstacle to REAL change that I have ever met. Whenever anyone on this site offers a solution you immediately pooh pooh it as unworkable there.

    So as usual your answer is to let this go until the negative event you predict actually occurs so you can run around like Chicken Little screaming "The sky has fallen, the sky has fallen. AND I TOLD YOU SO!!" Real progressive thinking there Bobby...You care less about solutions than you do being proven right. Pathetic.



    The fact is that this discussion has nothing to do with scheduling as often the members are available to respond. It's about the fact that the second shift member has significantly reduced the NEED for the volunteer responders to respond.

    It has EVERYTHING to do with scheduling if members aren't responding because too many people are already responding. Why burn out your volunteers when the reality is you only need 2 or 3 to respond to make sure that the ambo is covered?

    We never had a "mass response" policy except for incidents involving cardiac, codes and trauma. That's simply not the issue that I am discussing. The zone response policy would typically bring in 2-3 volunteer EMS personnel for 90% of our EMS runs.

    If you are zone paging how many people are getting those tones?

    One could argue that maybe that's a good thing as now the volunteers can respond to fewer routine EMS runs, which puts less of a demand on them. But I would argue that now they feel like they have less value as they are needed less, and in the end, that will hurt the volunteer side. As the larger paid staff handles more and more of the "routine" calls the volunteers will naturally feel less needed, and a likely result of that will be less involvement.

    Are the vollies complaining about not having to go to middle of the night ems calls or are you complaining that they don't have to go to middle of the night ems calls? Because there is a dramtic difference and you can call me whatever name you like but I wouldn't be upset in the least about not having to get up at 0200to go on an ems call.

    I have seen it in several cases in this area. And it is a natural reaction to more paid staff. And yes, that concerns me, and was a fear that I had when we hired the second paid shift member.

    Again, are the vollies rising up en masse to complain about this or are you just trying to create a problem where none exists?
    Honestly, a system like this does take the strain off the vollies from the routine type of middle of the nght calls. You could even have tiered dispatching that would not page the vollies for a transport gramma to the hospital call at 0200 but would page them for a PNB or trauma call. Bring them in when they are needed for an extra pair of hands and leave them sleep for those other calls. Golly Bobby, there is another solution. Will you Pooh Pooh that one too?
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  17. #117
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    Yet in your bizzaro portion of the universe it simply can't work? Right? That is what you are saying isn't it? Because your area is so unique that no tried and proven system anywhere else could work there. Geezus Bobby you are the biggest obstacle to REAL change that I have ever met. Whenever anyone on this site offers a solution you immediately pooh pooh it as unworkable there.


    Not there is simply no need for a duty crew. Again the issue is not the availability but the fact that there simply is no need for the volunteer response on most of the runs now given that there are two shift members plus the parish EMS crew.

    The members have not stopped responding because they are burned out, but because there is simply, most of the time, no need for the supplemental personnel given the additional paid member.


    So as usual your answer is to let this go until the negative event you predict actually occurs so you can run around like Chicken Little screaming "The sky has fallen, the sky has fallen. AND I TOLD YOU SO!!" Real progressive thinking there Bobby...You care less about solutions than you do being proven right. Pathetic.

    Again, the issue is the fact that there is simply a very limited need for the volunteer members on most of the EMS calls. They want to respond, and they still respond in on the calls that sound like they will require more hands, or will require some level of actual emergent care before the paid staff arrives.

    But they are frustrated that there seems to be little need for them anymore on the routine EMS runs.



    It has EVERYTHING to do with scheduling if members aren't responding because too many people are already responding. Why burn out your volunteers when the reality is you only need 2 or 3 to respond to make sure that the ambo is covered?

    It's not an issue about too many volunteers responding. It's an issue that the volunteers have little to do on the routine EMS runs because of the number of career members that we now have responding.

    Having too many was never the complaint.

    The issue is that the career staff is now capable of handling just a little bit more and the volunteers and needed just a little bit less, and that will affect response on those borderline runs.


    If you are zone paging how many people are getting those tones?

    We never have "zone paged" as that capability does not exist in our radio system, now would 911 go through that much effort if we did. pages are sent out on one channel and the members respond if it's in their district it it's a zone call. They are all aware of the criteria for a zone call and an all-call.



    Are the vollies complaining about not having to go to middle of the night ems calls or are you complaining that they don't have to go to middle of the night ems calls? Because there is a dramtic difference and you can call me whatever name you like but I wouldn't be upset in the least about not having to get up at 0200to go on an ems call.

    The volunteers are complaining that there is now much less of a need for them to go on those calls, and they are feeling less involved.

    There are a few that don't see this as an issue but those were the ones that rarely responded anyway. The for majority of our EMS responders, they are seeing themselves as less and less needed on the routine EMS response.


    Again, are the vollies rising up en masse to complain about this or are you just trying to create a problem where none exists?


    It's not uncommon now to get no volunteer response on a routine 2 AM EMS call when before we hired the second shift member we would get 2 or 3 volunteers, so there is a problem.

    When I have asked them why they are responding far less to EMS calls, the answer is generally the same. They feel far less needed and see little point in responding now that there are 4 sets of hands instead of three.


    Honestly, a system like this does take the strain off the vollies from the routine type of middle of the nght calls. You could even have tiered dispatching that would not page the vollies for a transport gramma to the hospital call at 0200 but would page them for a PNB or trauma call. Bring them in when they are needed for an extra pair of hands and leave them sleep for those other calls. Golly Bobby, there is another solution. Will you Pooh Pooh that one too?

    Again, most of the volunteers want to respond when they can but many of them feel like they are now not needed on that routine run, and in many cases they are not. While it may take some of the strain off them it also means that they are less involved, and that was not only a concern of mine when we hired the second shift member, but also of others.

    We are not only seeing decreased response on routine EMS runs but also on minor fires, wires down and other such calls where many of the volunteers feel that they are not needed now that we have the second shift member. It does concern many of us that this slow bleed can at some point start to have a serious impact on volunteer morale and response.

    However, based on the stable fire we had the other night, where we had 42 volunteer and off-duty career members respond, it has yet to affect our structural fire response.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #118
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    9,980

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Your bones will be dust and it still won't have happened...
    True dat! DoD contractors have a much better funded lobbying effort than VFD's.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  19. #119
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yet in your bizzaro portion of the universe it simply can't work? Right? That is what you are saying isn't it? Because your area is so unique that no tried and proven system anywhere else could work there. Geezus Bobby you are the biggest obstacle to REAL change that I have ever met. Whenever anyone on this site offers a solution you immediately pooh pooh it as unworkable there.


    Not there is simply no need for a duty crew. Again the issue is not the availability but the fact that there simply is no need for the volunteer response on most of the runs now given that there are two shift members plus the parish EMS crew.

    The members have not stopped responding because they are burned out, but because there is simply, most of the time, no need for the supplemental personnel given the additional paid member.


    THEN DON'T PAGE THEM AND MAKE THEM WASTE THEIR TIME UNLESS THEY ARE NEEDED! Geezus how much easier can it get than that?

    So as usual your answer is to let this go until the negative event you predict actually occurs so you can run around like Chicken Little screaming "The sky has fallen, the sky has fallen. AND I TOLD YOU SO!!" Real progressive thinking there Bobby...You care less about solutions than you do being proven right. Pathetic.

    Again, the issue is the fact that there is simply a very limited need for the volunteer members on most of the EMS calls. They want to respond, and they still respond in on the calls that sound like they will require more hands, or will require some level of actual emergent care before the paid staff arrives.

    But they are frustrated that there seems to be little need for them anymore on the routine EMS runs.



    Have they ACTUALLY expressed that or is this YOU projecting YOUR attitude onto them. Frankly, I would have loved not getting up for the "Ill person" who has been sick for a week and decides at 0200 they need to go to the hospital, even though nothing has changed in their condition.

    It has EVERYTHING to do with scheduling if members aren't responding because too many people are already responding. Why burn out your volunteers when the reality is you only need 2 or 3 to respond to make sure that the ambo is covered?

    It's not an issue about too many volunteers responding. It's an issue that the volunteers have little to do on the routine EMS runs because of the number of career members that we now have responding.

    Having too many was never the complaint.

    The issue is that the career staff is now capable of handling just a little bit more and the volunteers and needed just a little bit less, and that will affect response on those borderline runs.


    Golly sounds like a nightmare for those guys that have to get up to go to work the next morning...

    If you are zone paging how many people are getting those tones?

    We never have "zone paged" as that capability does not exist in our radio system, now would 911 go through that much effort if we did. pages are sent out on one channel and the members respond if it's in their district it it's a zone call. They are all aware of the criteria for a zone call and an all-call.


    So for EVERY ems call ALL of your volunteers get woken up to? Wow! Now that is a really great system you have there. For me if I am not on ems duty my pager gets switched and my fire only pager is used for overnight. If they need lift assistance they page the fire department. I have no desire to be woken up for calls I am not responding to.

    Are the vollies complaining about not having to go to middle of the night ems calls or are you complaining that they don't have to go to middle of the night ems calls? Because there is a dramtic difference and you can call me whatever name you like but I wouldn't be upset in the least about not having to get up at 0200to go on an ems call.

    The volunteers are complaining that there is now much less of a need for them to go on those calls, and they are feeling less involved.

    There are a few that don't see this as an issue but those were the ones that rarely responded anyway. The for majority of our EMS responders, they are seeing themselves as less and less needed on the routine EMS response.


    Then develop a schedule and make sure they get something to do on those calls, develop a first responder program for those on duty and they would take a jump kit and go right to the scene, or keep crying about something you seem to have no real interest in finding a solution to other than blaming the paid guys for doing their job.

    Again, are the vollies rising up en masse to complain about this or are you just trying to create a problem where none exists?


    It's not uncommon now to get no volunteer response on a routine 2 AM EMS call when before we hired the second shift member we would get 2 or 3 volunteers, so there is a problem.

    When I have asked them why they are responding far less to EMS calls, the answer is generally the same. They feel far less needed and see little point in responding now that there are 4 sets of hands instead of three.


    Well then...look at my suggestions seriously, and to be honest I think the first responder idea is the best answer.

    Honestly, a system like this does take the strain off the vollies from the routine type of middle of the nght calls. You could even have tiered dispatching that would not page the vollies for a transport gramma to the hospital call at 0200 but would page them for a PNB or trauma call. Bring them in when they are needed for an extra pair of hands and leave them sleep for those other calls. Golly Bobby, there is another solution. Will you Pooh Pooh that one too?

    Again, most of the volunteers want to respond when they can but many of them feel like they are now not needed on that routine run, and in many cases they are not. While it may take some of the strain off them it also means that they are less involved, and that was not only a concern of mine when we hired the second shift member, but also of others.

    It seems that the Chief doesn't share your concern because the mission is being accomplished. You know, taking care of the citizens.

    We are not only seeing decreased response on routine EMS runs but also on minor fires, wires down and other such calls where many of the volunteers feel that they are not needed now that we have the second shift member. It does concern many of us that this slow bleed can at some point start to have a serious impact on volunteer morale and response.

    Well, if they aren't coming to fire department related calls then the problem has to do with dedication more than anything. Holy Schitt Bobby if your volles are even coming to fires that is THEIR problem not the paid guys fault.

    However, based on the stable fire we had the other night, where we had 42 volunteer and off-duty career members respond, it has yet to affect our structural fire response.


    That doesn't fit in well with your "The sky is falling, end of the world, end of life as we know it" scenario, does it?
    More panic mongering and excuses from you Bobby...your usual M.O.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  20. #120
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,383

    Default

    THEN DON'T PAGE THEM AND MAKE THEM WASTE THEIR TIME UNLESS THEY ARE NEEDED! Geezus how much easier can it get than that?

    All of our runs - EMS and fire - are paged out by 911 on a single frequency. There is no other way of notifying our members ... including the paid staff ... of a run.

    But therein lies the issue. The more the perception is given that they are not needed, the less interest there will be, hence lesser involvement in daily operations. That is THE issue created by the additional paid member. And that is just the issue that several of us were concerned about when we added more paid staff.


    Have they ACTUALLY expressed that or is this YOU projecting YOUR attitude onto them. Frankly, I would have loved not getting up for the "Ill person" who has been sick for a week and decides at 0200 they need to go to the hospital, even though nothing has changed in their condition.

    There are actually members that enjoyed going on EMS runs ... even the one described above ..... but they feel that in many cases the need no longer exists for them to respond.

    And several members have expressed this feeling.



    Golly sounds like a nightmare for those guys that have to get up to go to work the next morning...

    And there are those that are happy that the paid staff now has 4 sets of hands instead of three, but there are many that feel that they are now longer needed and want to respond, but feel that it's now a waste of their time.

    So for EVERY ems call ALL of your volunteers get woken up to? Wow! Now that is a really great system you have there. For me if I am not on ems duty my pager gets switched and my fire only pager is used for overnight. If they need lift assistance they page the fire department. I have no desire to be woken up for calls I am not responding to.

    Again, single frequency is used to page all fire district runs - EMS First Response and fire. It is not two separate agencies. The district runs EMS first response and fire calls. EMS transport is handled by Bossier Parish EMS agency. They operate a career staffed transport unit from our Central Station.


    Then develop a schedule and make sure they get something to do on those calls, develop a first responder program for those on duty and they would take a jump kit and go right to the scene, or keep crying about something you seem to have no real interest in finding a solution to other than blaming the paid guys for doing their job.

    Again, it's not an issue of needing a schedule for them to go on those calls. It's an issue that many, well are choosing not to go as they no longer feel needed on scene since we hired the second shift firefighter. I don't think you quite grasp the issue...... They no longer feel like there is a need for them on scene.

    I'm not blaming the paid staff but I am blaming the fact that hiring that second shift firefighter has done exactly what I feared .. reduced the need for volunteer responders on a healthy chunk of our EMS runs.


    Again, are the vollies rising up en masse to complain about this or are you just trying to create a problem where none exists?

    There have been several that have brought that up when I asked them about why their EMS percentages have dropped.

    Well then...look at my suggestions seriously, and to be honest I think the first responder idea is the best answer.

    That's exactly what the fire district does .. ALS First Response. The parish EMS agency does the transport. The two career shift members respond from our Central Station in a light rescue with the EMS unit, and the volunteers respond from home.

    For most calls, the shift crew arrives at the same time as the medic unit if it's coming from our station. If another unit is responding it could be 5-15 minutes before the bus arrives, depending on what part of the parish it's coming from.

    The voles could arrive up to 5-7 minutes before the paid staff and the ambo in the northern part of the district.


    It seems that the Chief doesn't share your concern because the mission is being accomplished. You know, taking care of the citizens.

    Actually this was one of the Chief's concerns when he added a seconds shift firefighter. He acknowledged that the more career staff we hired, the more they could handle without the volunteers, and the less they would be involved in day to day response operations. because of this he was hesitant about hiring the second shift man, but he went ahead because of the admin, maintenance, testing and janitorial needs that had to be addressed with additional career staffing.

    Ironically we were likely taking care of the citizens better on the EMS side without the second shift firefighter as we had a better volunteer EMS from home response.

    That's not my opinion. The response numbers reflect that.



    Well, if they aren't coming to fire department related calls then the problem has to do with dedication more than anything. Holy Schitt Bobby if your volles are even coming to fires that is THEIR problem not the paid guys fault.

    No, it has to do with how involved they feel and how needed. if the duty crew can handle minor incidents often the volunteer member will not respond to stand around.


    That doesn't fit in well with your "The sky is falling, end of the world, end of life as we know it" scenario, does it?

    Yes, they are still responding to major incidents.

    That being said, there will be a time when we lose people due to a lack of involvement caused by fewer responses or feeling needed that will affect our response to major incidents.
    \

    More panic mongering and excuses from you Bobby...your usual M.O.

    No fear or manic mongering but the response numbers to EMS calls indicate a slow bleed and much less involvement by the volunteers in the day to day delivery of EMS and minor fire incidents.

    Over time, that slow bleed will affect operations and membership.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Serious and Important Question
    By JasonAre in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-05-2010, 02:44 PM
  2. Important FDNY question
    By bridgeportfd in forum New York
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-13-2006, 07:55 PM
  3. New.. have important question
    By Stang302 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-28-2005, 09:41 AM
  4. Question????? Important...
    By fireguy2003 in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-14-2003, 07:32 AM
  5. By Law Question - Very Important!!
    By mifdprez in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-14-2001, 07:52 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts