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    ok since I started this thread I am telling everyone to shut up on PAID vs Volunteer and fundraising and what happens in LA specifically, if its not on the normal 1st post topic, just shut up and leave the thread. I am not usually mean but for about 8 pages of crap I have to be!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman5214 View Post
    ok since I started this thread I am telling everyone to shut up on PAID vs Volunteer and fundraising and what happens in LA specifically, if its not on the normal 1st post topic, just shut up and leave the thread. I am not usually mean but for about 8 pages of crap I have to be!.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman5214 View Post
    ok since I started this thread I am telling everyone to shut up on PAID vs Volunteer and fundraising and what happens in LA specifically, if its not on the normal 1st post topic, just shut up and leave the thread. I am not usually mean but for about 8 pages of crap I have to be!.
    Now I'm offended! Why did you capitalize PAID in all caps and not VOLUNTEER?? They are just as important to their communities as PAID guys are!! Jeebus man, talk about starting a war!

    Actually, as far as paid vs. volly threads go, this one morphed into a rather civil discussion with nobody getting butthurt...until slackjaw.
    So in the immortal words of dear Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up Francis"
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman5214 View Post
    ok since I started this thread I am telling everyone to shut up on PAID vs Volunteer and fundraising and what happens in LA specifically, if its not on the normal 1st post topic, just shut up and leave the thread. I am not usually mean but for about 8 pages of crap I have to be!.
    You mean this thread has a specific topic? which I'm to understand is not what we have been discussing. So what is this topic? Why haven't you said something before this so we knew what that topic was? It seems rather illogical to become annoyed with us if you failed to divulge that information to us. You haven't attended any mandatory sensitivity training recently have you? You know what would be great, we should do a thread about really important firefighting questions. That would be really cool, What do you think? If you don't like that we could just do a thread about LaFire like all the other threads, its up to you bro you decide man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman5214 View Post
    ok since I started this thread I am telling everyone to shut up on PAID vs Volunteer and fundraising and what happens in LA specifically, if its not on the normal 1st post topic, just shut up and leave the thread. I am not usually mean but for about 8 pages of crap I have to be!.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Oh wait, were you trying to be all serious?

    If so...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Even more!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Oh wait, were you trying to be all serious?

    If so...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Even more!!
    I always check the pattern of the a's and the h's. NAILED IT! as usual
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I always check the pattern of the a's and the h's. NAILED IT! as usual
    Is that a sign of OCD? Geez I hope not.
    A SIGN? How about an admission?
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Yes, a guaranteed minimum number of members AND all arriving more quickly AND simultaneously AND with a rig full of equipment.

    Staffing and timing are two of the biggest factors in a successful outcome at just about any fire or emergency.

    Could any reasonable firefighter actually argue against that?

    I don't disagree that in some places the security of paid staff is needed to deliver a guaranteed response, however, in our situation the 50-55K that we spend on hiring a paid member can go a long way towards recruiting a retaining a significant number of volunteer personnel, that in total, will likely give us a much larger overall response than that one paid member, especially when you exclude vacation, sick and out of district training time.

    The fact is this community has and continues to demonstrate the ability to provide a very strong volunteer basis, which given additional financial support, is likely to become even more involved.

    Again, my disagreement is not necessarily that we hired three members bringing each shift to 2. My disagreement is that they were hired as shift members, not daytime members. I would have liked to seen 2 hired as daytime personnel, where we are a little weaker on the volunteer response, with the funding for position three being diverted into retention programs for the volunteers.


    PS Please don't tell us about station cleaning or maintenance or any other ancillary function. They are only support services to our mission.
    But here testing and rated related activities are critical as the rating is critical, and in many ways, the primary yardstick that the politicians judge the department's capabilities.

    I would disagree that any type of maintenance is ancillary to our function, as if the equipment is not maintained, and does not work, we may be dead in the water at an incident.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-19-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But here testing and rated related activities are critical as the rating is critical, and in many ways, the primary yardstick that the politicians judge the department's capabilities.

    I would disagree that any type of maintenance is ancillary to our function, as if the equipment is not maintained, and does not work, we may be dead in the water at an incident.
    You've stated over and over and over again that you have trouble getting enough members on the scene of a house fire (in one of your departments) to mount an attack. My only point is that full time paid staff would alleviate that problem. I understand the financial realities of the world we live in. I also do NOT mean to condemn volunteer firefighters or volunteer departments. But if we are dealing in realities, we have to acknowledge that full time firefighters provide the fastest and best response to fires and emergencies. I got the impression from some of your previous posts that possibly you disagreed with this.

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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1380989]

    Originally Posted by captnjak
    Yes, a guaranteed minimum number of members AND all arriving more quickly AND simultaneously AND with a rig full of equipment.

    Staffing and timing are two of the biggest factors in a successful outcome at just about any fire or emergency.

    Could any reasonable firefighter actually argue against that?

    I don't disagree that in some places the security of paid staff is needed to deliver a guaranteed response, however, in our situation the 50-55K that we spend on hiring a paid member can go a long way towards recruiting a retaining a significant number of volunteer personnel, that in total, will likely give us a much larger overall response than that one paid member, especially when you exclude vacation, sick and out of district training time.

    You argue against paid personnel EVERY CHANCE YOU GET! Even though commander hypocrit YOU ARE ONE!

    See this is where you bite yourself in the azz. You say OVER and OVER how your full time gig FD has more than enough volunteer help, so why do you need $50-55K incentive? Won't that ruin them and turn them into people there only for the money? You see either you have enough volunteers or you don't, you can't keep changing the story to fit your pathetic, illogical, anti-paid firefighter agenda.


    The fact is this community has and continues to demonstrate the ability to provide a very strong volunteer basis, which given additional financial support, is likely to become even more involved.

    Thanks for destroying your idiotic incentive argument from the last paragraph. I ould have far more respect for you if you just admitted and anti-career firefighter bias instead of the absolute Bull ****t you make up.

    So let me get this right, NOW you want to pay your very strong volunteer base? WHY? To do what?


    Again, my disagreement is not necessarily that we hired three members bringing each shift to 2. My disagreement is that they were hired as shift members, not daytime members. I would have liked to seen 2 hired as daytime personnel, where we are a little weaker on the volunteer response, with the funding for position three being diverted into retention programs for the volunteers.


    Who cares what you think about it? As you default to every time you get challenged on something, YOU are not in a decision making position and the Chief felt the department needed this. So how about you stop slamming your chief's decisions on an international forum and show a little respect for your chief and the department instead of continually sounding like a crybaby that didn'tt get his way?

    PS Please don't tell us about station cleaning or maintenance or any other ancillary function. They are only support services to our mission.

    But here testing and rated related activities are critical as the rating is critical, and in many ways, the primary yardstick that the politicians judge the department's capabilities.

    The phony baloney rating system that gives credit for completely unstaffed stations just because somebody from farther away pulls a truck out of there once a year? If your politicians measure your FD solely based on yourrating then they are every bit as stupid about all this as you are. RESULTS, extinguishing fires, saving property, and lives, are far more important than ratings points.

    I would disagree that any type of maintenance is ancillary to our function, as if the equipment is not maintained, and does not work, we may be dead in the water at an incident.


    Of course it is ancillary to the primary function. The primary function is and always has been save lives and property. Maintaining equipment is important to that function but not as important no matter how much you want to justify turning your paid guys into primarily maintenance men.

    Just more of your insane ramblings Bobby.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    You've stated over and over and over again that you have trouble getting enough members on the scene of a house fire (in one of your departments) to mount an attack. My only point is that full time paid staff would alleviate that problem.

    That's my VFD. My combo departments averages 12-14 volunteer plus 5 paid staff daytime and 23-25 volunteers plus 2 paid members nights. Volunteer response is not an issue.

    Funding does not exist for any paid staff in my VFD.


    I understand the financial realities of the world we live in. I also do NOT mean to condemn volunteer firefighters or volunteer departments. But if we are dealing in realities, we have to acknowledge that full time firefighters provide the fastest and best response to fires and emergencies. I got the impression from some of your previous posts that possibly you disagreed with this.

    That has to be tempered with the frequency of events that actually constitute an emergency justifying the high cost of career members vs. volunteers.

    Event hough, as an example, my VFD has a problem with volunteer response, the coast of career members vs. the very limited numbers of actually emergent events that we run to would create a significant justification issue for my VFD.

    In the case of my combo department, we actually have the funding to hire a third member per shift but simply do not have the need given the volunteer response. I would argue that we really didn't have the need for the second member per shift except to assist with the admin, rating related and maintenance needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    You've stated over and over and over again that you have trouble getting enough members on the scene of a house fire (in one of your departments) to mount an attack. My only point is that full time paid staff would alleviate that problem.

    That's my VFD. My combo departments averages 12-14 volunteer plus 5 paid staff daytime and 23-25 volunteers plus 2 paid members nights. Volunteer response is not an issue.

    Funding does not exist for any paid staff in my VFD.


    I understand the financial realities of the world we live in. I also do NOT mean to condemn volunteer firefighters or volunteer departments. But if we are dealing in realities, we have to acknowledge that full time firefighters provide the fastest and best response to fires and emergencies. I got the impression from some of your previous posts that possibly you disagreed with this.

    That has to be tempered with the frequency of events that actually constitute an emergency justifying the high cost of career members vs. volunteers.

    Event hough, as an example, my VFD has a problem with volunteer response, the coast of career members vs. the very limited numbers of actually emergent events that we run to would create a significant justification issue for my VFD.

    In the case of my combo department, we actually have the funding to hire a third member per shift but simply do not have the need given the volunteer response. I would argue that we really didn't have the need for the second member per shift except to assist with the admin, rating related and maintenance needs.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Come on get a hotel, room, your own thread,

    OP::



    Most Important FireFighting Question You want Answered: Please Suggest
    Hi Guys and Girls,

    We are going to publish an expert round-up post on our blog and we need your opinion on the most important question you want answered from an expert. I am sure it's going to be lot of Fun! Please propose your questions below :

    Here's two from me:

    #1 What is the most important firefighting tool?

    OR

    #2 What has the biggest firefighting safety feature been since 1900?

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    You argue against paid personnel EVERY CHANCE YOU GET! Even though commander hypocrit YOU ARE ONE!

    I argue against career members when there is not a need either because there is still a volunteer base that could be utilized, or because the volume simply does not justify paid staffing.

    Just because I am a career member that should not stop me advocating for volunteer personnel whenever possible as it is the most cost-efficient way to deliver fire, and in many places, EMS services. I really don't see what one has anything to do with the other.


    See this is where you bite yourself in the azz. You say OVER and OVER how your full time gig FD has more than enough volunteer help, so why do you need $50-55K incentive? Won't that ruin them and turn them into people there only for the money? You see either you have enough volunteers or you don't, you can't keep changing the story to fit your pathetic, illogical, anti-paid firefighter agenda.

    Yes, we are doing very well on the volunteer side, but certainly that should not preclude us for doing even more to recruit and retain those volunteers.

    Not I never said anything about paying them, but there are a boat load of non-monetary incentives that can be used to reward members for response and training goals and performance.



    Thanks for destroying your idiotic incentive argument from the last paragraph. I ould have far more respect for you if you just admitted and anti-career firefighter bias instead of the absolute Bull ****t you make up.

    So you don't believe in giving volunteers incentives for performance and training related performance?

    I have nothing against career members where needed and in places where volunteers, given adequate opportunities, have demonstrated an inability to respond in sufficient numbers or achieve advanced training levels as required by the hazards in the district. My issue is that career members are often inserted as a "rapid fix" into smaller districts where far less effective methods to stimulate volunteer recruitment, retention, training and response and the volunteers are not given adequate time to remedy those issues.

    Career members have their place. Volunteers have their place. And there are places where volunteers are underutilized and could save the community significant amounts of money on salary and benefits.



    So let me get this right, NOW you want to pay your very strong volunteer base? WHY? To do what?

    Reward, not pay.

    The fact is properly rewarded, in many places, volunteers would become not only more abundant and productive, saving communities the need to hire paid staff.

    That's not anti-career. That's simply wanting to provide fire protection at the lowest possible cost by reducing the need for paid staff.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Come on get a hotel, room, your own thread,

    OP::



    Most Important FireFighting Question You want Answered: Please Suggest
    Hi Guys and Girls,

    We are going to publish an expert round-up post on our blog and we need your opinion on the most important question you want answered from an expert. I am sure it's going to be lot of Fun! Please propose your questions below :

    Here's two from me:

    #1 What is the most important firefighting tool?

    OR

    #2 What has the biggest firefighting safety feature been since 1900?
    Whewwwww Hewwwwwwww .. 10,000 Posts!!!!!!!!!

    #2 is easy ... Integrated PASS.

    #1 is a little more complicated ...... But I'm going to say SCBA.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-19-2013 at 01:40 PM.
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    #1) Properly positioned hoseline flowing adequate stream

    #2) SCBA

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    That has to be tempered with the frequency of events that actually constitute an emergency justifying the high cost of career members vs. volunteers.

    Nonsense and you know it. If the volunteer fire department can't provide an adequate response there are 3 choices: 1) Fold up the FD and take your chances, 2) Merge with, or let another FD have your territory, 3) Hirepaid personnel. I guess there is a 4th that you utilize, pretend to have a fire department and don't tell the citizens how pathetically covered by their own vfd they are and without the neighboring city FD covering you often there would be no real offensive firefighting taking place.

    Event hough, as an example, my VFD has a problem with volunteer response, the coast of career members vs. the very limited numbers of actually emergent events that we run to would create a significant justification issue for my VFD.

    A PROBLEM? How about it is a pathetically sad joke that you continually defend.

    In the case of my combo department, we actually have the funding to hire a third member per shift but simply do not have the need given the volunteer response. I would argue that we really didn't have the need for the second member per shift except to assist with the admin, rating related and maintenance needs.


    Who cares what you think about it? As you have repeatedly stated you are not in a decision making position. So instead you snipe at the admin's decision here on FH.com, real classy, and a heck of a team player.
    Just more of your Bovine recyclable waste material.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You argue against paid personnel EVERY CHANCE YOU GET! Even though commander hypocrit YOU ARE ONE!

    I argue against career members when there is not a need either because there is still a volunteer base that could be utilized, or because the volume simply does not justify paid staffing.

    Well obviously those that make the decisions think differently.

    Just because I am a career member that should not stop me advocating for volunteer personnel whenever possible as it is the most cost-efficient way to deliver fire, and in many places, EMS services. I really don't see what one has anything to do with the other.


    Advocating for the volunteers is one thing, attempting to cut the throat of the paid guys there already by making a case to show they aren't needed, when the chief decided they were, is quite another. Frankly as much time as you waste here almost everyday between the hours of 0800 and 1600 I could replace you with an answering machine and get more work out of it.

    See this is where you bite yourself in the azz. You say OVER and OVER how your full time gig FD has more than enough volunteer help, so why do you need $50-55K incentive? Won't that ruin them and turn them into people there only for the money? You see either you have enough volunteers or you don't, you can't keep changing the story to fit your pathetic, illogical, anti-paid firefighter agenda.

    Yes, we are doing very well on the volunteer side, but certainly that should not preclude us for doing even more to recruit and retain those volunteers.

    So you are willing to spend the equivalent of a paid firefighters salary to keep the vollies happy, but not to keep a paid firefighter that is worth more on the rating schedule and who is there working? BRILLIANT! I would support a crew of paid personnel 24/7/365 on BOTH of my POC FDs if we could afford it. Simply because it would provide faster service to our citizens.

    Not I never said anything about paying them, but there are a boat load of non-monetary incentives that can be used to reward members for response and training goals and performance.


    We have an awards banquette and actually our FFs are Paid On Call. So do tell me about rewards...

    Thanks for destroying your idiotic incentive argument from the last paragraph. I ould have far more respect for you if you just admitted and anti-career firefighter bias instead of the absolute Bull ****t you make up.

    So you don't believe in giving volunteers incentives for performance and training related performance?

    Never said that. I just am tired of your veiled hatred for paid firefighters and your constant crying about a decision your chief made to hire another shift firefighter even though you don't agree with it.

    I have nothing against career members where needed and in places where volunteers, given adequate opportunities, have demonstrated an inability to respond in sufficient numbers or achieve advanced training levels as required by the hazards in the district. My issue is that career members are often inserted as a "rapid fix" into smaller districts where far less effective methods to stimulate volunteer recruitment, retention, training and response and the volunteers are not given adequate time to remedy those issues.

    Nonsense, you never miss an opportunity to rip on career firefighters.

    Career members have their place. Volunteers have their place. And there are places where volunteers are underutilized and could save the community significant amounts of money on salary and benefits.


    Then why won't you admit your virtually non-existent VFD could use some career guys to fill in the million mile wide gap in coverage?

    So let me get this right, NOW you want to pay your very strong volunteer base? WHY? To do what?

    Reward, not pay.

    Same thing...My bet is they would actually prefer CASH over trinkets and awards.

    The fact is properly rewarded, in many places, volunteers would become not only more abundant and productive, saving communities the need to hire paid staff.

    Has nothing to do with a too high call volume for vollies to handle.

    That's not anti-career. That's simply wanting to provide fire protection at the lowest possible cost by reducing the need for paid staff.


    You get what you pay for and sometimes low cost, no availability volunteer FDs don't save as much as they appear to. Larger fire losses, like with your volly FD before the city FD started coming in offset any budget savings.
    Just more of your blather Bobby.
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    Get a room

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    I think captnjak asked one of the most important questions. Why is the fire service seen as a nuisance until needed?

    What can be done to remedy this situation? How can we improve customer service to make a difference?
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I always check the pattern of the a's and the h's. NAILED IT! as usual
    Is that a sign of OCD? Geez I hope not.
    You check the pattern of a's and h's then accuse him of OCD!!!

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    Here is a question for the OP to ask...

    Why, after documented case after documented case of steam burns to firefighters, do some FDs, and even more sadly, some instructors still advocate the use of fog streams during interior fire fighting operations?

    How about this one...

    Why do fire departments buy nozzles, put them on their hoselines and then never do any kind of flow testing to see if they work right or what actual engine pressure is needed to get the desired flow?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Here is a question for the OP to ask...

    Why, after documented case after documented case of steam burns to firefighters, do some FDs, and even more sadly, some instructors still advocate the use of fog streams during interior fire fighting operations?

    How about this one...

    Why do fire departments buy nozzles, put them on their hoselines and then never do any kind of flow testing to see if they work right or what actual engine pressure is needed to get the desired flow?
    Hey Fryed ...

    I'll be headed up your way in October to teach an NFA class.

    Beer Summit?

    As far as question 1 ......

    I have used fog nozzles for 30 years and have never been steam burned, nor Have I steam burned any students when acting as an Instructor. Does it happen? Sure, but it has a lot more to do with the user or the instructor than it does the nozzle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman5214 View Post
    #1 What is the most important firefighting tool?
    I'm gonna have to say your brain and your knowledge. Without common sense, training, and the know how to do the job with the tools provided, you're going to struggle. You can have the best tools in the world, but if you don't know how to use them, how they operate, or how to get the maximum potential from them, the latest, greatest, most praised tools are worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by fireman5214 View Post
    #2 What has the biggest firefighting safety feature been since 1900?
    I'm gonna have to say SCBA. Without SCBA, I don't think most of us would be able to do the job, let alone be comfortable doing the job.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hey Fryed ...

    I'll be headed up your way in October to teach an NFA class.

    Beer Summit?

    As far as question 1 ......

    I have used fog nozzles for 30 years and have never been steam burned, nor Have I steam burned any students when acting as an Instructor. Does it happen? Sure, but it has a lot more to do with the user or the instructor than it does the nozzle.
    Steam burns usually only occur from a fog when a crew is on the interior of the structure.
    slackjawedyokel and conrad427 like this.

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