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Thread: water transfer between foldatanks

  1. #26
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    Getting high flow rates with a tanker shuttle involves lots of vehicles, but it also requires the ability to dump at the desired flow. That would best be done with several dump sites, separated so the tankers can maneuver. Water from the satellite dump sites can then be moved to the central site (if that's what you want) via LDH.

    For large incidents, it's not unusual around here to have a couple of drop sites running. If the fill sites are up to the task, then the flow rate is limited only by the resources you can commit and the usual variables (fill & dump rates, travel time).
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    IF you can get 2,000 out of a tanker shuttle, please come and show us how. The best we have ever been able to sustain is about 1,000, and that was with trucks lined up nose to tail at the dump site. Wouldn't you have to have dumps in front and behind the engine? Dump rates around here top out around 1,500 and that is only for the first minute on a 2,500 tank capacity. You would be able to et better with vacuum trucks, but they are not prevalent around here.

    Our thought has always been to grab an extra suction off one of the mutual aid trucks (tanker or engine) to set up the power siphon. Unless you are carrying 2 tanks on your truck, you will have others there right away to grab one off anyway. They don't need them driving back and forth hauling water.
    Note I said "If the water IS available."
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    The tenders carry one section of hard suction with the jet siphon attached. We seldom have the option of drafting from a ground water source so the tenders are normally filling from hydrants. The operations usually involve a minimum of two portable dump tanks and we have used as many as six with water being transferred from the five prime dump tanks to the draft tank. Most of the departments in the area have side dumps so space permitting, they can drive up, dump and drive off without backing.

    We have tried the low profile strainer/siphon combos but check the specs before you buy. Some are limited to a maximum of 500 GPM.

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    Posted this before. http://www.firehouse.com/forums/atta...5&d=1255475483
    This is constructed using a "tailboard mount" for a strainer. (we keep our barrel strainer attached to the hard sleeve) Cut a star (3 points) from 1/4" flat stock to match the three holes in the strainer mounting device, and then braze a close 2" nipple into the center of the star. A "Street Reducer" 2" x 1" acts as the nozzle and screws onto the close nipple. 2" elbows, a couple of long nipples and an old brass coupling complete the design. Screw the female of the hard sleeve onto the device and feed the coupling with a 2 1/2" hose at about 100 psi or higher. We have been able to reach 1,500 gpm at a 10 ft lift or transfer more than that between drop tanks. One of the most damaging things that you can do to your fire pump is to pump muddy flood water or dewater basements by dropping a hard sleeve in the filth and use the main pump to dewater in place of a trash pump (made to pump dirt). With this device it is possible to use clean hydrant water (around 200 gpm) pumpde through your engine and then jet the water from the basement at 1500 gpm or more. You can also use a 6" by stortz on the male end of the hard sleeve and extend the hose away from the foundation to keep the water from flowing back if the hard sleeve isn't long enough to throw the water away from the foundation.
    Last edited by kuh shise; 09-04-2013 at 01:06 PM.

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    Guys...let me explain this one more time.

    I know about the pvc U shaped siphon tubes and have used them. I know about the home made device made with a running board mount for a hard sleeve. I know about using the jet siphon attachment on the low level strainer. These are all great ideas and they all work. BUT...it wasn't what I was asking about and frankly none of them answer the basic question I had. I did find the answer when I searched online.

    Thanks anyways.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I did find the answer when I searched online.
    You're gonna share, aren't you?
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    You're gonna share, aren't you?
    Post #6 on this topic:

    After looking further I found the device I was talking about it is made by Kochek. A few of us are going to try and make one.

    Link to Kochek

    http://www.kochek.com/FireEquipment.aspx?uid=381-488
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  8. #33
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    Interesting. Didn't bother rooting around Kochek because I wasn't sure what you were talking about - if you don't know what you're looking for, you won't know when you've found it.

    Anyhow - a little braising and a piece of PVC pipe should be all it takes. Pretty spiffy. A 45 degree angle at the top might limit the 'range' of that cannon.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Interesting. Didn't bother rooting around Kochek because I wasn't sure what you were talking about - if you don't know what you're looking for, you won't know when you've found it.

    Anyhow - a little braising and a piece of PVC pipe should be all it takes. Pretty spiffy. A 45 degree angle at the top might limit the 'range' of that cannon.
    Way ahead of you Brother, the guy getting us the piece of PVC is getting us a 45 degree elbow too! Great minds think alike I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I wish I knew what the brand name of ours, but I know it that it is red. Like you said Fyred it runs with a 1.5 line with the holes in the bottom and has a convienient lip on it to hold it up on the side of the tank. It is store bought and is metal but could be fabricated out of PVC, although thin wall tubing would perhaps be more durable.
    I am not aware of the type that takes a section of hard suction.
    Yep, that's the one we have, works great. I just could not find it on the internet, I typed in jet siphion, not transfer pipe.
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    Fyred, in the great frozen *** north where we live wouldn't you be better off fabricating it out of metal? I have seen PVC shatter like a florescent lamp up here.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Fyred, in the great frozen *** north where we live wouldn't you be better off fabricating it out of metal? I have seen PVC shatter like a florescent lamp up here.
    Aw, shucks, everything freezes up there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Aw, shucks, everything freezes up there.
    Indeed it does. We considered a switch to Kelvin to make it sound warmer, but the citizens would not buy it.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Indeed it does. We considered a switch to Kelvin to make it sound warmer, but the citizens would not buy it.
    I don't know think Kelvin is a state, but if it's as cold as Montana I'm sure you could etch glass with your nipples there, too.
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  15. #40
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    Thread resurrection:

    Our department has one of these on loan for a few days, in the care of one of my trusted friends who's also an excellent pump ops and and rural water instructor. They did some testing with it today, and this is the report that he sent back to me:
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________

    BoxAlarm187,

    We tested it today with E4 and this is what we found :

    Advantages :

    weight- 19lbs for the pipe versus 60lbs for the hose / strainer-siphon. One person can easily set it up.

    water availibility- pipe took the water level down to around 4in versus 6-8 in for the siphon. Not sure how much water that equals but in a 2500 gallon tank its a decent amount.

    simplicity- requires no "assembly"

    frees up your hard sleeve and strainer / siphon for other uses. K4 and K14 only carry 20 ft of drafting hose and one low level strainer....

    cost - $675 list for pipe versus $1350 for hard sleeve / strainer-siphon

    Disadvantages :

    storage- a 5 ft long x 6in diameter pipe is hard to find a home for. We came up with the idea of mounting it on the tank rack with some PAC brackets. See photo 3 test fitted on K4.

    cost- $675.00 for an aluminum pipe......

    That's about all we found that we didnt like.

    Now we did not run a completely scientific test on the flow rates. Kochek claims 600-1000 gpm for the pipe. I know from our training that the hard sleeve is around 500gpm. We flowed both devices at 100psi.The hard sleeve setup emptied the tank down as far as it would go in 2min 30 sec. This left around 6in of water in the tank. The pipe took right around 3min but moved more water out of the tank taking it down to a level of around 3-4 inches. I would call that a tie....

    Ultimately we believe that they are worth purchasing and are going to recommend that the [department] look into purchasing them for [four tankers]. The ease of set up with a single firefighter and "freeing up" of the other hardsleeve and hardware is what sold us on the idea.
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________

    Hope this helps...
    Career Fire Captain
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    BoxAlarm187,

    Thanks for the after use report. I am more convinced than ever to try building one in house!
    BoxAlarm187 and RFDACM02 like this.
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    After seeing the device in post #32 and the positive report(s), it appears this would be a great addition to our Tanker Task Force equipment wants/needs list. Every once in a while we still get some useful tidbits here amongst the general poking and jabbing. Thanks Fyredup, your request resulted in enlightening at least a few of us to a new way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    After seeing the device in post #32 and the positive report(s), it appears this would be a great addition to our Tanker Task Force equipment wants/needs list. Every once in a while we still get some useful tidbits here amongst the general poking and jabbing. Thanks Fyredup, your request resulted in enlightening at least a few of us to a new way.
    Heck Brother, there is much to learn yet in this business and when we abandon the BS for a few seconds we can ask questions and learn from each other. Believe me I have picked up plenty of useful info and ideas from people on this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Heck Brother, there is much to learn yet in this business and when we abandon the BS for a few seconds we can ask questions and learn from each other. Believe me I have picked up plenty of useful info and ideas from people on this forum.
    I agree wholeheartedly, it's just as of late the useful stuff is a little harder to find. It's things like this that remind me to check back more often and breeze past most of the BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly, it's just as of late the useful stuff is a little harder to find. It's things like this that remind me to check back more often and breeze past most of the BS.
    Hey, why don't we start tagging threads with "BS" if they have that and "learning" if they have that? Might streamline our day!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Hey, why don't we start tagging threads with "BS" if they have that and "learning" if they have that? Might streamline our day!
    I can't believe you would do that to me! All those useless little jewels which I spends a couple milliseconds on will be ignored forever and not relished, enjoyed and placed in family scrapbooks with other family heirlooms.

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    Heck I wished we used multiple dump tanks.... we never have brought out more than one per pumper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    I can't believe you would do that to me! All those useless little jewels which I spends a couple milliseconds on will be ignored forever and not relished, enjoyed and placed in family scrapbooks with other family heirlooms.
    I don't mean fun BS like you and I try to provide generously. I'm talking about the pee-pee matches and endless circular arguments. A little BS is necessary and helpful!
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
    ― Hunter S. Thompson

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    Quote Originally Posted by thecnwcaboose View Post
    Heck I wished we used multiple dump tanks.... we never have brought out more than one per pumper
    Well, if you haven't needed to do it, you shouldn't do it. Setting up eleventy-four dozen dump tanks is a fine way to fight fire when you need a cartoonish amount of water. It's a giant pain in the butt if it's a skillet of chicken.
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    I don't mean fun BS like you and I try to provide generously. I'm talking about the pee-pee matches and endless circular arguments. A little BS is necessary and helpful!
    Pee-pee matches ? Really? You really do gotta quit having kids bro. One of these days you'll try and kiss somebodies boo-boo at a scene or something.

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