Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 51
Like Tree6Likes

Thread: water transfer between foldatanks

  1. #21
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sounds like the jet siphon, which is what my combo department uses.

    My VFD uses portable ponds that connect together at the bottom.
    It is indeed a jet siphon, but one that does not take a piece of hard suction out of the mix. With a 2000 gpm pumper if the water IS available you need to intakes working.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate


  2. #22
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    536

    Default

    I wish I knew what the brand name of ours, but I know it that it is red. Like you said Fyred it runs with a 1.5 line with the holes in the bottom and has a convienient lip on it to hold it up on the side of the tank. It is store bought and is metal but could be fabricated out of PVC, although thin wall tubing would perhaps be more durable.
    I am not aware of the type that takes a section of hard suction.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  3. #23
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    At my part time department we use the jet siphons to transfer from one tank to another. However a few years back we started getting the low profile strainers with the jet siphons built in. I have found this makes a huge difference in the amount of water you can siphon from tank to tank. You can easily suck it down to an inch or so if you get that tight on water. As box alarm said earlier I like to arrange them so that I draft out of one and have two dump tanks on the opposite corners this allow for multiple tankers to dump at once and allows for the side dump tankers to be able to dump and run when you have a rear dump only tanker in the rotation. Water sitting on wheels at the dump site is always a waste

  4. #24
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It is indeed a jet siphon, but one that does not take a piece of hard suction out of the mix. With a 2000 gpm pumper if the water IS available you need to intakes working.
    IF you can get 2,000 out of a tanker shuttle, please come and show us how. The best we have ever been able to sustain is about 1,000, and that was with trucks lined up nose to tail at the dump site. Wouldn't you have to have dumps in front and behind the engine? Dump rates around here top out around 1,500 and that is only for the first minute on a 2,500 tank capacity. You would be able to et better with vacuum trucks, but they are not prevalent around here.

    Our thought has always been to grab an extra suction off one of the mutual aid trucks (tanker or engine) to set up the power siphon. Unless you are carrying 2 tanks on your truck, you will have others there right away to grab one off anyway. They don't need them driving back and forth hauling water.

  5. #25
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,533

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    IF you can get 2,000 out of a tanker shuttle, please come and show us how. The best we have ever been able to sustain is about 1,000, and that was with trucks lined up nose to tail at the dump site. Wouldn't you have to have dumps in front and behind the engine? Dump rates around here top out around 1,500 and that is only for the first minute on a 2,500 tank capacity. You would be able to et better with vacuum trucks, but they are not prevalent around here.

    Our thought has always been to grab an extra suction off one of the mutual aid trucks (tanker or engine) to set up the power siphon. Unless you are carrying 2 tanks on your truck, you will have others there right away to grab one off anyway. They don't need them driving back and forth hauling water.
    When we use to physically have to do the shuttle for the rating, my combo department would get over 1900gpm utilizing 2 engines and 4 3,000g ponds. We would use the local refineries water system to fill the tankers, which was a bout 3 miles away. That shuttle utilized about 10 departments, and probably 14-16 tankers, including our 3 3000g tanker and engine tankers, and 2 smaller 1000g "sprint" engine-tankers.

    Now that they have gone to a computer based virtual system, we tag in at a little over 1800gpm.

    Would we ever get that in a actual shuttle? Likely not as it's hard to imagine a fire off our water system that we would bring tankers in from that distance. There would simply not be the need for that type of flow.

    The barn fire that we had a couple of weeks ago we flowed a little over 1000gpm with 6 tankers involved including our 6000g tractor-trailer tanker and one recently purchased by the city with no quick dumps or quick fills, which required that the load be pumped off.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Getting high flow rates with a tanker shuttle involves lots of vehicles, but it also requires the ability to dump at the desired flow. That would best be done with several dump sites, separated so the tankers can maneuver. Water from the satellite dump sites can then be moved to the central site (if that's what you want) via LDH.

    For large incidents, it's not unusual around here to have a couple of drop sites running. If the fill sites are up to the task, then the flow rate is limited only by the resources you can commit and the usual variables (fill & dump rates, travel time).
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  7. #27
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    IF you can get 2,000 out of a tanker shuttle, please come and show us how. The best we have ever been able to sustain is about 1,000, and that was with trucks lined up nose to tail at the dump site. Wouldn't you have to have dumps in front and behind the engine? Dump rates around here top out around 1,500 and that is only for the first minute on a 2,500 tank capacity. You would be able to et better with vacuum trucks, but they are not prevalent around here.

    Our thought has always been to grab an extra suction off one of the mutual aid trucks (tanker or engine) to set up the power siphon. Unless you are carrying 2 tanks on your truck, you will have others there right away to grab one off anyway. They don't need them driving back and forth hauling water.
    Note I said "If the water IS available."
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  8. #28
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Location
    Black Hawk VFD, South Dakota
    Posts
    629

    Default

    The tenders carry one section of hard suction with the jet siphon attached. We seldom have the option of drafting from a ground water source so the tenders are normally filling from hydrants. The operations usually involve a minimum of two portable dump tanks and we have used as many as six with water being transferred from the five prime dump tanks to the draft tank. Most of the departments in the area have side dumps so space permitting, they can drive up, dump and drive off without backing.

    We have tried the low profile strainer/siphon combos but check the specs before you buy. Some are limited to a maximum of 500 GPM.

  9. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pa Wilds
    Posts
    577

    Default

    Posted this before. http://www.firehouse.com/forums/atta...5&d=1255475483
    This is constructed using a "tailboard mount" for a strainer. (we keep our barrel strainer attached to the hard sleeve) Cut a star (3 points) from 1/4" flat stock to match the three holes in the strainer mounting device, and then braze a close 2" nipple into the center of the star. A "Street Reducer" 2" x 1" acts as the nozzle and screws onto the close nipple. 2" elbows, a couple of long nipples and an old brass coupling complete the design. Screw the female of the hard sleeve onto the device and feed the coupling with a 2 1/2" hose at about 100 psi or higher. We have been able to reach 1,500 gpm at a 10 ft lift or transfer more than that between drop tanks. One of the most damaging things that you can do to your fire pump is to pump muddy flood water or dewater basements by dropping a hard sleeve in the filth and use the main pump to dewater in place of a trash pump (made to pump dirt). With this device it is possible to use clean hydrant water (around 200 gpm) pumpde through your engine and then jet the water from the basement at 1500 gpm or more. You can also use a 6" by stortz on the male end of the hard sleeve and extend the hose away from the foundation to keep the water from flowing back if the hard sleeve isn't long enough to throw the water away from the foundation.
    Last edited by kuh shise; 09-04-2013 at 12:06 PM.

  10. #30
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,852

    Default

    Guys...let me explain this one more time.

    I know about the pvc U shaped siphon tubes and have used them. I know about the home made device made with a running board mount for a hard sleeve. I know about using the jet siphon attachment on the low level strainer. These are all great ideas and they all work. BUT...it wasn't what I was asking about and frankly none of them answer the basic question I had. I did find the answer when I searched online.

    Thanks anyways.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  11. #31
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I did find the answer when I searched online.
    You're gonna share, aren't you?
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  12. #32
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    You're gonna share, aren't you?
    Post #6 on this topic:

    After looking further I found the device I was talking about it is made by Kochek. A few of us are going to try and make one.

    Link to Kochek

    http://www.kochek.com/FireEquipment.aspx?uid=381-488
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #33
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Interesting. Didn't bother rooting around Kochek because I wasn't sure what you were talking about - if you don't know what you're looking for, you won't know when you've found it.

    Anyhow - a little braising and a piece of PVC pipe should be all it takes. Pretty spiffy. A 45 degree angle at the top might limit the 'range' of that cannon.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  14. #34
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Interesting. Didn't bother rooting around Kochek because I wasn't sure what you were talking about - if you don't know what you're looking for, you won't know when you've found it.

    Anyhow - a little braising and a piece of PVC pipe should be all it takes. Pretty spiffy. A 45 degree angle at the top might limit the 'range' of that cannon.
    Way ahead of you Brother, the guy getting us the piece of PVC is getting us a 45 degree elbow too! Great minds think alike I guess.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #35
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I wish I knew what the brand name of ours, but I know it that it is red. Like you said Fyred it runs with a 1.5 line with the holes in the bottom and has a convienient lip on it to hold it up on the side of the tank. It is store bought and is metal but could be fabricated out of PVC, although thin wall tubing would perhaps be more durable.
    I am not aware of the type that takes a section of hard suction.
    Yep, that's the one we have, works great. I just could not find it on the internet, I typed in jet siphion, not transfer pipe.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  16. #36
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Fyred, in the great frozen *** north where we live wouldn't you be better off fabricating it out of metal? I have seen PVC shatter like a florescent lamp up here.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  17. #37
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,038

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Fyred, in the great frozen *** north where we live wouldn't you be better off fabricating it out of metal? I have seen PVC shatter like a florescent lamp up here.
    Aw, shucks, everything freezes up there.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  18. #38
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Aw, shucks, everything freezes up there.
    Indeed it does. We considered a switch to Kelvin to make it sound warmer, but the citizens would not buy it.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  19. #39
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,038

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Indeed it does. We considered a switch to Kelvin to make it sound warmer, but the citizens would not buy it.
    I don't know think Kelvin is a state, but if it's as cold as Montana I'm sure you could etch glass with your nipples there, too.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  20. #40
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,249

    Default

    Thread resurrection:

    Our department has one of these on loan for a few days, in the care of one of my trusted friends who's also an excellent pump ops and and rural water instructor. They did some testing with it today, and this is the report that he sent back to me:
    ______________________________ ______________________________ _________________

    BoxAlarm187,

    We tested it today with E4 and this is what we found :

    Advantages :

    weight- 19lbs for the pipe versus 60lbs for the hose / strainer-siphon. One person can easily set it up.

    water availibility- pipe took the water level down to around 4in versus 6-8 in for the siphon. Not sure how much water that equals but in a 2500 gallon tank its a decent amount.

    simplicity- requires no "assembly"

    frees up your hard sleeve and strainer / siphon for other uses. K4 and K14 only carry 20 ft of drafting hose and one low level strainer....

    cost - $675 list for pipe versus $1350 for hard sleeve / strainer-siphon

    Disadvantages :

    storage- a 5 ft long x 6in diameter pipe is hard to find a home for. We came up with the idea of mounting it on the tank rack with some PAC brackets. See photo 3 test fitted on K4.

    cost- $675.00 for an aluminum pipe......

    That's about all we found that we didnt like.

    Now we did not run a completely scientific test on the flow rates. Kochek claims 600-1000 gpm for the pipe. I know from our training that the hard sleeve is around 500gpm. We flowed both devices at 100psi.The hard sleeve setup emptied the tank down as far as it would go in 2min 30 sec. This left around 6in of water in the tank. The pipe took right around 3min but moved more water out of the tank taking it down to a level of around 3-4 inches. I would call that a tie....

    Ultimately we believe that they are worth purchasing and are going to recommend that the [department] look into purchasing them for [four tankers]. The ease of set up with a single firefighter and "freeing up" of the other hardsleeve and hardware is what sold us on the idea.
    ______________________________ ______________________________ _________________

    Hope this helps...
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Transfer from the uk
    By HUTCHY in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-27-2010, 12:06 AM
  2. Transfer?
    By dvisnick in forum Probie House: The Place for Newbies
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-20-2009, 02:22 PM
  3. IL to FL transfer
    By jharring in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-29-2007, 11:29 PM
  4. When you transfer
    By JHR1985 in forum Probie House: The Place for Newbies
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-05-2006, 10:33 AM
  5. Water Water no where .. Rural America
    By Chief Fairbanks in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 02-10-2001, 02:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts