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Thread: water transfer between foldatanks

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    Default water transfer between foldatanks

    I saw a device for transferring water between foldatanks somewhere online and I can't find it now.

    It was a straight piece of PVC pipe, on the end that sat in the tank you were moving water it was angled and had several holes on the side wall of the pipe to draw water in. It also had a connection to attach a 1 1/2 inch hose to it to jet water from one foldatank to another.

    I am looking for THIS device because of its apparent simplicity. If you know where info is on this let me know.
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    We use a section of draft hose. Fill it in one tank, cap the end, then without exposing the open end to the air put the capped side into the other foldatank and remove the cap. Works well and is about as simple as it gets.

    Unless I misunderstand the point of the device you describe it should do the same thing moving water from a full foldatank to an empty one and maintaining equal levels between two filled foldatanks.

    Never seen a purpose designed device made to do this, so can't help with that part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I saw a device for transferring water between foldatanks somewhere online and I can't find it now.

    It was a straight piece of PVC pipe, on the end that sat in the tank you were moving water it was angled and had several holes on the side wall of the pipe to draw water in. It also had a connection to attach a 1 1/2 inch hose to it to jet water from one foldatank to another.

    I am looking for THIS device because of its apparent simplicity. If you know where info is on this let me know.
    Would this not be just a PVC pipe with the hydrant adapter end (such as used on a dry hydrant) with a Jet -siphon attached on the threaded end? Drill some holes in the PVC to draw in more water than just the end of the jet-siphon? It must have a few elbows to go from one tank to another? I'd wonder about using just a short piece of this to add to the need of a light weight suction hose to make the transfer "pipe" easier to carry?

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    Yep, I know of a style that is like that as well..works very well around the area where I'm from. Hematite Fire Protection District has one they have made and it works like a charm..they are located in Missouri, they are a pretty cool group of guys and would probably get you some pictures or info on what they have done if you contacted them about it.

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    There are commercial jet siphons that screw into the female end of a hard suction. You connect a 1.5" line to the siphon and place the end with the siphon in the tank you are taking water out of. Secure the other end so that the discharge goes into the next tank. Flows of 500 gpm and up are common. The pump operator controls the amount of pressure into the siphon. It takes a little practice to keep from overshooting the receiving tank.

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    After looking further I found the device I was talking about it is made by Kochek. A few of us are going to try and make one.

    Thanks for the help guys.
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    The jet siphon adapters Kocheck sell are cheaper and do not require near the space to carry on the trucks. You already have the suction (if you use all of yours, you can grab one off another truck) so it is just carrying a small adapter. We have built a couple of these adapters (basically a 1" tee with cap on one end and adapter to 1.5" NH on the other, built long enough to cover the ears on the female end of the suction) and they are again small and easy to build / carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    After looking further I found the device I was talking about it is made by Kochek. A few of us are going to try and make one.

    Thanks for the help guys.
    We have what you are talking about. It's made from 6" PVC pipe, it's an upside down "U" shape, with an outward facing 90 degree elbow at each end. On one end we have an old 2 1/2" hose fitting mounted. It's mounted by drilling holes in the collar on the elbow, and through the hose fitting. The holes in the fitting are tapped and they bolts are threaded into the hose fitting suspending it in the center of the opening of the elbow to make a jet siphon. I think this is possibly the cheapest way to make it. I'll try and post a pic in the next day or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayr49 View Post
    There are commercial jet siphons that screw into the female end of a hard suction. You connect a 1.5" line to the siphon and place the end with the siphon in the tank you are taking water out of. Secure the other end so that the discharge goes into the next tank. Flows of 500 gpm and up are common. The pump operator controls the amount of pressure into the siphon. It takes a little practice to keep from overshooting the receiving tank.
    Works good, we just ran one all night all most couple of nights ago on a rural fire.

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    One idea I saw that works well, is to simply connect the drains together. No need for siphons, or pressure at all- gravity does all the work.

    On the downside, you'd likely need an extra drain or two, if there is a lot of water leftover in the tanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    One idea I saw that works well, is to simply connect the drains together. No need for siphons, or pressure at all- gravity does all the work.

    On the downside, you'd likely need an extra drain or two, if there is a lot of water leftover in the tanks.
    The major problem with this idea is you may end up with 2 tanks with 2 inches of water in them totally unusable or one tank with 4 inches in it that is still usable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The major problem with this idea is you may end up with 2 tanks with 2 inches of water in them totally unusable or one tank with 4 inches in it that is still usable.
    I'd think the transfer pipes/suction lines would require more head height to maintain suction than the connected drains. Probably I'm missing a piece of this, can you elaborate?

    BTW: Goof info and resources here: http://www.gotbigwater.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    One idea I saw that works well, is to simply connect the drains together. No need for siphons, or pressure at all- gravity does all the work.

    On the downside, you'd likely need an extra drain or two, if there is a lot of water leftover in the tanks.
    While I've never seen this done in person, I've seen it in the texts and magazines. I'm not a fan because I like the idea of being able to "stage" additional water in multiple drop-tanks and transfer the water into my drafting tank as I need it. It does require more setup time, but it gives the operator of the supply pumper far more control of the water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I'd think the transfer pipes/suction lines would require more head height to maintain suction than the connected drains. Probably I'm missing a piece of this, can you elaborate?

    BTW: Goof info and resources here: http://www.gotbigwater.com/
    Okay, I will concede it is a bad situation either way when you get down to only 2 inches of water left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The major problem with this idea is you may end up with 2 tanks with 2 inches of water in them totally unusable or one tank with 4 inches in it that is still usable.
    At that point you're only talking a hundred or two gallons of water, not enough to make a difference if you've already drained a tank or two at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The major problem with this idea is you may end up with 2 tanks with 2 inches of water in them totally unusable or one tank with 4 inches in it that is still usable.
    The bigger problem I see is that you are very restricted on where you place the dump tanks. They must be a certain distance apart and the drains must line up.
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    EastKyFF, I totally agree - it's much simpler/more efficient to have one dump tank, and a draft tank, as your draft tank gets low, you transfer water from the dump tank... I've used the jet siphon similar to the Kochek (on one fire it was for 15 hours straight!) and it does become quite a juggling act at times, but once you get the hang of it, it's a slick way to keep your draft tank full.
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    FyredUp- we have what I believe you are talking about. We use 6" PVC pipe and pretty much make a big U (upside down when in use) the only problem is in the winter time we toss them off the back of the tanker and when it is cold ... you can guess what happens... I can send you a picture if you want one. We also use the low flow strainer and a piece of suction hose as well. Both work well.

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    dday05,

    We have the upside down U shaped ones now. The one I was talking about is a straight piece of PVC pipe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    dday05,

    We have the upside down U shaped ones now. The one I was talking about is a straight piece of PVC pipe.
    Sounds like the jet siphon, which is what my combo department uses.

    My VFD uses portable ponds that connect together at the bottom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sounds like the jet siphon, which is what my combo department uses.

    My VFD uses portable ponds that connect together at the bottom.
    It is indeed a jet siphon, but one that does not take a piece of hard suction out of the mix. With a 2000 gpm pumper if the water IS available you need to intakes working.
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    I wish I knew what the brand name of ours, but I know it that it is red. Like you said Fyred it runs with a 1.5 line with the holes in the bottom and has a convienient lip on it to hold it up on the side of the tank. It is store bought and is metal but could be fabricated out of PVC, although thin wall tubing would perhaps be more durable.
    I am not aware of the type that takes a section of hard suction.
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    At my part time department we use the jet siphons to transfer from one tank to another. However a few years back we started getting the low profile strainers with the jet siphons built in. I have found this makes a huge difference in the amount of water you can siphon from tank to tank. You can easily suck it down to an inch or so if you get that tight on water. As box alarm said earlier I like to arrange them so that I draft out of one and have two dump tanks on the opposite corners this allow for multiple tankers to dump at once and allows for the side dump tankers to be able to dump and run when you have a rear dump only tanker in the rotation. Water sitting on wheels at the dump site is always a waste

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It is indeed a jet siphon, but one that does not take a piece of hard suction out of the mix. With a 2000 gpm pumper if the water IS available you need to intakes working.
    IF you can get 2,000 out of a tanker shuttle, please come and show us how. The best we have ever been able to sustain is about 1,000, and that was with trucks lined up nose to tail at the dump site. Wouldn't you have to have dumps in front and behind the engine? Dump rates around here top out around 1,500 and that is only for the first minute on a 2,500 tank capacity. You would be able to et better with vacuum trucks, but they are not prevalent around here.

    Our thought has always been to grab an extra suction off one of the mutual aid trucks (tanker or engine) to set up the power siphon. Unless you are carrying 2 tanks on your truck, you will have others there right away to grab one off anyway. They don't need them driving back and forth hauling water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    IF you can get 2,000 out of a tanker shuttle, please come and show us how. The best we have ever been able to sustain is about 1,000, and that was with trucks lined up nose to tail at the dump site. Wouldn't you have to have dumps in front and behind the engine? Dump rates around here top out around 1,500 and that is only for the first minute on a 2,500 tank capacity. You would be able to et better with vacuum trucks, but they are not prevalent around here.

    Our thought has always been to grab an extra suction off one of the mutual aid trucks (tanker or engine) to set up the power siphon. Unless you are carrying 2 tanks on your truck, you will have others there right away to grab one off anyway. They don't need them driving back and forth hauling water.
    When we use to physically have to do the shuttle for the rating, my combo department would get over 1900gpm utilizing 2 engines and 4 3,000g ponds. We would use the local refineries water system to fill the tankers, which was a bout 3 miles away. That shuttle utilized about 10 departments, and probably 14-16 tankers, including our 3 3000g tanker and engine tankers, and 2 smaller 1000g "sprint" engine-tankers.

    Now that they have gone to a computer based virtual system, we tag in at a little over 1800gpm.

    Would we ever get that in a actual shuttle? Likely not as it's hard to imagine a fire off our water system that we would bring tankers in from that distance. There would simply not be the need for that type of flow.

    The barn fire that we had a couple of weeks ago we flowed a little over 1000gpm with 6 tankers involved including our 6000g tractor-trailer tanker and one recently purchased by the city with no quick dumps or quick fills, which required that the load be pumped off.
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