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Thread: New Pumper Purchase

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    It's good news that your department is it's own entity, and you do not have to answer to any local government officials on your spending. I agree with you on going out and getting two new pumpers due to safety reasons, there are not many fire departments that can do what your's is. Two years ago we had a public meeting to purchase a new aerial truck at a cost of $750k, the residents said no way are we going to fund the purchase of a new apparatus, they wanted to close down the fire house !
    That's the reason we became our own entity, we had the wolf at the door there for a while. Let this be a warning to any departments that are not incorporated themselves or a munincipality. Things may be nice now but once the council finds out what they can achieve when they take you over then they will surely do it. Granted they cannot use funds for any other purpose than fire protection it still looks good for them when they get state bonds. Another department close to us had their town take them over and instead of paying for the new apparatus and equipment they desperately needed they used the money to install a hydrant system on a new highway with no development currently on it. It might be beneficial for some departments to become a part of their town but in our case our funds exceed theirs. Maybe one day we can be on good terms. I would like to continue but I shouldn't. Lets just say they want us bad enough to kick us out of the town if we don't conform, if we don't turn over to them they will contract another department. However we do not charge the town for our services and our jd goes further than the town limits.


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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    The engine may not have many miles on it but even after a complete service it needs to sit and run for a few minutes before it will even budge. Once it gets warm enough it will creep for about 1/2 a mile. Doesn't help response times. My department isn't the wealthiest by any means but we are blessed to be able to equip ourselves with what we need. Another giant factor is safety. You don't realize how bad commercial cabs are until you are cutting another fire fighters body out of one.
    Frankly, until you guys learn how to take care of the apparatus you have purchasing new apparatus is a waste of money. My #1 POC FD retired a 1974 Mack CF engine 2 years ago, so it was 37 years old and was still in front line service. It was finally retired because of rust issues and failing the vacuum part of the pump test. How did we keep it in service for so long? MAINTEANCE! Plain and simple, We annually had the truck maintained. It went it for pump service and DOT inspection and needed repairs. If we had any issues we got this rig in a repaired. We didn't hem and haw, we didn't put it off, we didn't accept that this is the way it is. We run a 2005 and a 1985 engine and they get the same standard of maintenance that the old Mack did.

    Personally my opinion is whoever is doing your maintenance and repairs needs to be REPLACED IMMEDIATELY. How anyone would accept what you are saying your rig is doing is beyond me. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that truck and it needs attention RIGHT NOW. Unless it is all Bull Schite to justify getting new rigs.

    By the way, I own the old Mack CF and sshe still runs and pumps like a champ. However I realize that if i don't maintain it it will not continue to do that. I have an appointment to get the pump maintained and the engine serviced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Frankly, until you guys learn how to take care of the apparatus you have purchasing new apparatus is a waste of money. My #1 POC FD retired a 1974 Mack CF engine 2 years ago, so it was 37 years old and was still in front line service. It was finally retired because of rust issues and failing the vacuum part of the pump test. How did we keep it in service for so long? MAINTEANCE! Plain and simple, We annually had the truck maintained. It went it for pump service and DOT inspection and needed repairs. If we had any issues we got this rig in a repaired. We didn't hem and haw, we didn't put it off, we didn't accept that this is the way it is. We run a 2005 and a 1985 engine and they get the same standard of maintenance that the old Mack did.

    Personally my opinion is whoever is doing your maintenance and repairs needs to be REPLACED IMMEDIATELY. How anyone would accept what you are saying your rig is doing is beyond me. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that truck and it needs attention RIGHT NOW. Unless it is all Bull Schite to justify getting new rigs.

    By the way, I own the old Mack CF and sshe still runs and pumps like a champ. However I realize that if i don't maintain it it will not continue to do that. I have an appointment to get the pump maintained and the engine serviced.
    We have scheduled maintenance for all of our trucks with Sunbelt, the outfitter/service center for Eone. We go with them because we did not believe the last mechanic that looked at them and said the same thing. The trucks are at an outlying sub station and since 08 don't get used as often. So we began rotating them out thinking that would help. It didn't. We have an 89 Ford tanker that will out pump anything we have, 3 quick attack Chevrolet Silverado 2500 gas engines that carry 250 gal skid units. We don't have serious problems with any of our other trucks. By all means if you would like to come and do all of the mechanic work yourself feel free. Ill wait, and be standing there to say "told ya so". Same team, don't bash me or my departments ability.

  4. #24
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    We have scheduled maintenance for all of our trucks with Sunbelt, the outfitter/service center for Eone. We go with them because we did not believe the last mechanic that looked at them and said the same thing. The trucks are at an outlying sub station and since 08 don't get used as often. So we began rotating them out thinking that would help. It didn't. We have an 89 Ford tanker that will out pump anything we have, 3 quick attack Chevrolet Silverado 2500 gas engines that carry 250 gal skid units. We don't have serious problems with any of our other trucks. By all means if you would like to come and do all of the mechanic work yourself feel free. Ill wait, and be standing there to say "told ya so". Same team, don't bash me or my departments ability.
    You posted this:

    The engine may not have many miles on it but even after a complete service it needs to sit and run for a few minutes before it will even budge. Once it gets warm enough it will creep for about 1/2 a mile.
    Actually, I didn't bash YOU or YOUR FD, I bashed whoever does your repair work. I don't know jack squat about your FD and further don't really care. According to you your original mechanic and now the E-One dealer can't find this problem. So instead of pursuing this further you accept it as is? Ever think of taking it to an International dealer?

    I never said I was a mechanic so your idiotic, and frankly childish, comments about me coming there and doing your mechanic work are meaningless. I can tell you I would be pushing hard for answers as to what is wrong instead of just accepting it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You posted this:



    Actually, I didn't bash YOU or YOUR FD, I bashed whoever does your repair work. I don't know jack squat about your FD and further don't really care. According to you your original mechanic and now the E-One dealer can't find this problem. So instead of pursuing this further you accept it as is? Ever think of taking it to an International dealer?

    I never said I was a mechanic so your idiotic, and frankly childish, comments about me coming there and doing your mechanic work are meaningless. I can tell you I would be pushing hard for answers as to what is wrong instead of just accepting it.
    You're right, you caught us. There is nothing wrong with the trucks. They work fine. We are getting new trucks because we can. Funds are good and we are going to blow them like a kid in vegas. Probably going to outfit them with a bunch of equipment that we will never use. Now that I think about it, forget the pumper. I will get Eone to start producing the Bronto tiller again and just buy 2 of those. Thanks guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You posted this:



    Ever think of taking it to an International dealer?
    .
    Original mechanic was an International service center.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    You're right, you caught us. There is nothing wrong with the trucks. They work fine. We are getting new trucks because we can. Funds are good and we are going to blow them like a kid in vegas. Probably going to outfit them with a bunch of equipment that we will never use. Now that I think about it, forget the pumper. I will get Eone to start producing the Bronto tiller again and just buy 2 of those. Thanks guy.
    What the hell are you talking about?

    FyredUp only said the same thing that many of us were thinking. There seems to be an issue with the engine and/or transmission. I think we're surprised that your department hasn't been a little more aggressive in getting the problem resolved. Have you tried to pursue something through the International dealer again, and running it up through the International chain-of-command if you're not getting satisfactory service locally?
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    If these are midship pumps,the problem is in pump transmission and the service guys are not even trying to check the most obvious area of problems. I have seen trucks that sit that needed the pump transmission fluids changed do to moisture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    You're right, you caught us. There is nothing wrong with the trucks. They work fine. We are getting new trucks because we can. Funds are good and we are going to blow them like a kid in vegas. Probably going to outfit them with a bunch of equipment that we will never use. Now that I think about it, forget the pumper. I will get Eone to start producing the Bronto tiller again and just buy 2 of those. Thanks guy.
    Just wondering, did you hold you breath, or stomp your feet while writing this childish bunch of horse schite? Geezus Dude, you sound like a petulant little girl.

    Apparently I far over estimated your intelligence and reading comprehension levels because nothing you said in this post even comes close to responding to anything I said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    Original mechanic was an International service center.
    So when the trouble wasn't fixed did you go back again? Why not?
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    It really sounds like a excuse to get a newer apparatus. If I was a tax payer and my VFD told me that the story above I would be getting mighty suspect the the department was being mismanaged. A FD that uses tax dollars had better prove to the tax payers that the trucks are so unusable or so unsafe they need replaced. My home town has the same midship bought in 1985 and it has 30K on it and it out pumps the the three newer trucks from draft,she may be old hell but there is no reason to replace a truck just because it is older,oh by the way she is a commercial cab and has never been unsafe .

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    Two years ago we had a public meeting to purchase a new aerial truck at a cost of $750k, the residents said no way are we going to fund the purchase of a new apparatus, they wanted to close down the fire house !

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    It really sounds like a excuse to get a newer apparatus. If I was a tax payer and my VFD told me that the story above I would be getting mighty suspect the the department was being mismanaged. A FD that uses tax dollars had better prove to the tax payers that the trucks are so unusable or so unsafe they need replaced.
    I don't understand these comments. I have worked for several fire departments ranging from very small to one of the largest in the Country. Regardless, in all of them, we had a budget and did what we wanted with it. Never have I heard of a fire department going to residents (who know nothing about the needs and/or associated costs of running and equipping a fire department) to ask if we could buy anything.
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    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!
    That's the same thing I was going to say. Capital Improvement Projects in Virginia over a given amount of money are required to go before the citizens for approval. In my volunteer locality, this includes both the purchase of apparatus and the construction of new facilities, whereas in my well-to-do work locality, apparatus purchase is a line-item in the budget, whereas spending money on facilities is still approved by the voters.

    So far, none of the CIP items for the fire department in either locality have been denied by the taxpayers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!
    Actually, the district can submit an annual budget that includes replacement of apparatus and at that disgustingly low turnout vote...get enough of their own members to approve the budget. Individual purchases don't need further public approval when they are listed in the budget.


    We are town funded, no district. Between the 2 stations there are 4 main apparatus. 1 TL, 3 engines. Every 5 years, 1 of them is replaced. That gives each piece a 20 year life with us. They are maintained and usually a good used truck for someone to buy. Lets us NOT have large maintenance bills and keeps us in reliable/safe/working equipment.

    How many people out there are driving 20 year old cars? And how many of them are expecting their car to do what a fire apparatus does with little to no warming up?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones,

    I used the 20, no excuse me, 30 year old car argument at a board meeting and got told by one of the board members his work truck was 30 years old and had a hell of a lot more miles on it than the fire truck did...

    The sad truth is logic has VERY little to do with some decisions in rural, small town, America.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!
    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    That's the same thing I was going to say. Capital Improvement Projects in Virginia over a given amount of money are required to go before the citizens for approval. In my volunteer locality, this includes both the purchase of apparatus and the construction of new facilities, whereas in my well-to-do work locality, apparatus purchase is a line-item in the budget, whereas spending money on facilities is still approved by the voters.

    So far, none of the CIP items for the fire department in either locality have been denied by the taxpayers.
    Wow!! Another example of not knowing how well you have it until you see how things work elsewhere.

    It's not to say that budgets do not have to be submitted, justified, and approved by someone or that fire departments around me do not exercise due diligence with their purchases, but I could not imagine having to get voter approval on purchases.

    Maybe that also explains why other areas apparatus purchases seem to take so long. We spec something out and have it 6 months later. I have never seen a 2 year spec and purchase like one recently posted here in another thread.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Red face Bones42

    Even if the fire district has the capital funds saved from other years budgets, there must be a special question on the ballot in February, to use the restricted funds to purchase a new apparatus. Or you can have a special election any time during the year with 21 days notice to the public ! So if you have saved up $ 500k to buy a pumper, you can not use the money untill the voters approve the spending.We have gone threw this with the State of New Jersey DCA with the ladder truck purchase.
    Last edited by Woodbridge; 08-26-2013 at 09:28 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    ...I could not imagine having to get voter approval on purchases.
    There might be a little misunderstanding on how it works here, I probably didn't explain it well and kind of blended a couple of things together.

    Apparatus purchases are approved on a yearly basis as part of a CIP package that would include things such as police cars, water and sewer projects, new soccer fields for the parks & rec department, etc. By state law, an appointed committee of citizens has already reviewed and made recommendations to the elected officials before it can be acted upon. Most CIP packages can (and are) approved by the elected officials after a public comment period, unless there isn't enough money for the project.

    In the event that there isn't enough money in the county's coffers, then a bond referendum has to be approved by the voters. A bond is nothing more than a loan to a local government that must be paid back with certain obligations just like your car loan has. Sometimes these bond referendums can run into the tens-of-millions of dollars, so it's prudent to have voter approval.

    Bonds are what have paid for new facilities in both of my counties.

    Maybe that also explains why other areas apparatus purchases seem to take so long. We spec something out and have it 6 months later. I have never seen a 2 year spec and purchase like one recently posted here in another thread.
    It could be a combination of things. We spent two years spec'ing our new engine at the VFD, but it's a once-every-20-years purchase for us, so we wanted to do it right. We started the spec process well before the money was even approved so when it WAS approved, we were ready to move on the bid process immediately.

    At work, where we buy several new apparatus per fiscal year, the process is far more streamlined, and our committee consists of those of us with a strong background in apparatus purchasing so it makes the process more efficient.
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    Default Replacement Dollars

    My point being about tax payers is they can say no more if they feel there is waste. We are in very bad economic situation in this country. If the tax payers see new rigs you had better be ready to hear complaints and be willing to explain your reason(s) your replacing a decent apparatus. What happens if you buy a new rig and need funds for a station replacement,tax payers may no like to support it if they feel their tax money was wasted before on apparatus.

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