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Thread: New Pumper Purchase

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You posted this:



    Ever think of taking it to an International dealer?
    .
    Original mechanic was an International service center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    You're right, you caught us. There is nothing wrong with the trucks. They work fine. We are getting new trucks because we can. Funds are good and we are going to blow them like a kid in vegas. Probably going to outfit them with a bunch of equipment that we will never use. Now that I think about it, forget the pumper. I will get Eone to start producing the Bronto tiller again and just buy 2 of those. Thanks guy.
    What the hell are you talking about?

    FyredUp only said the same thing that many of us were thinking. There seems to be an issue with the engine and/or transmission. I think we're surprised that your department hasn't been a little more aggressive in getting the problem resolved. Have you tried to pursue something through the International dealer again, and running it up through the International chain-of-command if you're not getting satisfactory service locally?
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    If these are midship pumps,the problem is in pump transmission and the service guys are not even trying to check the most obvious area of problems. I have seen trucks that sit that needed the pump transmission fluids changed do to moisture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    You're right, you caught us. There is nothing wrong with the trucks. They work fine. We are getting new trucks because we can. Funds are good and we are going to blow them like a kid in vegas. Probably going to outfit them with a bunch of equipment that we will never use. Now that I think about it, forget the pumper. I will get Eone to start producing the Bronto tiller again and just buy 2 of those. Thanks guy.
    Just wondering, did you hold you breath, or stomp your feet while writing this childish bunch of horse schite? Geezus Dude, you sound like a petulant little girl.

    Apparently I far over estimated your intelligence and reading comprehension levels because nothing you said in this post even comes close to responding to anything I said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    Original mechanic was an International service center.
    So when the trouble wasn't fixed did you go back again? Why not?
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    It really sounds like a excuse to get a newer apparatus. If I was a tax payer and my VFD told me that the story above I would be getting mighty suspect the the department was being mismanaged. A FD that uses tax dollars had better prove to the tax payers that the trucks are so unusable or so unsafe they need replaced. My home town has the same midship bought in 1985 and it has 30K on it and it out pumps the the three newer trucks from draft,she may be old hell but there is no reason to replace a truck just because it is older,oh by the way she is a commercial cab and has never been unsafe .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    Two years ago we had a public meeting to purchase a new aerial truck at a cost of $750k, the residents said no way are we going to fund the purchase of a new apparatus, they wanted to close down the fire house !

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    It really sounds like a excuse to get a newer apparatus. If I was a tax payer and my VFD told me that the story above I would be getting mighty suspect the the department was being mismanaged. A FD that uses tax dollars had better prove to the tax payers that the trucks are so unusable or so unsafe they need replaced.
    I don't understand these comments. I have worked for several fire departments ranging from very small to one of the largest in the Country. Regardless, in all of them, we had a budget and did what we wanted with it. Never have I heard of a fire department going to residents (who know nothing about the needs and/or associated costs of running and equipping a fire department) to ask if we could buy anything.
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    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!
    That's the same thing I was going to say. Capital Improvement Projects in Virginia over a given amount of money are required to go before the citizens for approval. In my volunteer locality, this includes both the purchase of apparatus and the construction of new facilities, whereas in my well-to-do work locality, apparatus purchase is a line-item in the budget, whereas spending money on facilities is still approved by the voters.

    So far, none of the CIP items for the fire department in either locality have been denied by the taxpayers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!
    Actually, the district can submit an annual budget that includes replacement of apparatus and at that disgustingly low turnout vote...get enough of their own members to approve the budget. Individual purchases don't need further public approval when they are listed in the budget.


    We are town funded, no district. Between the 2 stations there are 4 main apparatus. 1 TL, 3 engines. Every 5 years, 1 of them is replaced. That gives each piece a 20 year life with us. They are maintained and usually a good used truck for someone to buy. Lets us NOT have large maintenance bills and keeps us in reliable/safe/working equipment.

    How many people out there are driving 20 year old cars? And how many of them are expecting their car to do what a fire apparatus does with little to no warming up?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones,

    I used the 20, no excuse me, 30 year old car argument at a board meeting and got told by one of the board members his work truck was 30 years old and had a hell of a lot more miles on it than the fire truck did...

    The sad truth is logic has VERY little to do with some decisions in rural, small town, America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    All Fire Districts in the State of New Jersey need voter approval to spend tax payer dollars on any capital items such as fire apparatus, equipment, buildings, etc! That is why we held a public meeting on the purchase of a new aerial ladder truck !!
    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    That's the same thing I was going to say. Capital Improvement Projects in Virginia over a given amount of money are required to go before the citizens for approval. In my volunteer locality, this includes both the purchase of apparatus and the construction of new facilities, whereas in my well-to-do work locality, apparatus purchase is a line-item in the budget, whereas spending money on facilities is still approved by the voters.

    So far, none of the CIP items for the fire department in either locality have been denied by the taxpayers.
    Wow!! Another example of not knowing how well you have it until you see how things work elsewhere.

    It's not to say that budgets do not have to be submitted, justified, and approved by someone or that fire departments around me do not exercise due diligence with their purchases, but I could not imagine having to get voter approval on purchases.

    Maybe that also explains why other areas apparatus purchases seem to take so long. We spec something out and have it 6 months later. I have never seen a 2 year spec and purchase like one recently posted here in another thread.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #38
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    Red face Bones42

    Even if the fire district has the capital funds saved from other years budgets, there must be a special question on the ballot in February, to use the restricted funds to purchase a new apparatus. Or you can have a special election any time during the year with 21 days notice to the public ! So if you have saved up $ 500k to buy a pumper, you can not use the money untill the voters approve the spending.We have gone threw this with the State of New Jersey DCA with the ladder truck purchase.
    Last edited by Woodbridge; 08-26-2013 at 09:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    ...I could not imagine having to get voter approval on purchases.
    There might be a little misunderstanding on how it works here, I probably didn't explain it well and kind of blended a couple of things together.

    Apparatus purchases are approved on a yearly basis as part of a CIP package that would include things such as police cars, water and sewer projects, new soccer fields for the parks & rec department, etc. By state law, an appointed committee of citizens has already reviewed and made recommendations to the elected officials before it can be acted upon. Most CIP packages can (and are) approved by the elected officials after a public comment period, unless there isn't enough money for the project.

    In the event that there isn't enough money in the county's coffers, then a bond referendum has to be approved by the voters. A bond is nothing more than a loan to a local government that must be paid back with certain obligations just like your car loan has. Sometimes these bond referendums can run into the tens-of-millions of dollars, so it's prudent to have voter approval.

    Bonds are what have paid for new facilities in both of my counties.

    Maybe that also explains why other areas apparatus purchases seem to take so long. We spec something out and have it 6 months later. I have never seen a 2 year spec and purchase like one recently posted here in another thread.
    It could be a combination of things. We spent two years spec'ing our new engine at the VFD, but it's a once-every-20-years purchase for us, so we wanted to do it right. We started the spec process well before the money was even approved so when it WAS approved, we were ready to move on the bid process immediately.

    At work, where we buy several new apparatus per fiscal year, the process is far more streamlined, and our committee consists of those of us with a strong background in apparatus purchasing so it makes the process more efficient.
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    Default Replacement Dollars

    My point being about tax payers is they can say no more if they feel there is waste. We are in very bad economic situation in this country. If the tax payers see new rigs you had better be ready to hear complaints and be willing to explain your reason(s) your replacing a decent apparatus. What happens if you buy a new rig and need funds for a station replacement,tax payers may no like to support it if they feel their tax money was wasted before on apparatus.

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    My department in Pearl River NY has a Rosenbauer rescue pumper on order with the Commander chassis, just came back from the pre con meeting in MN. Having been to Pierce, Seagrave, Saulsbury back in the day for truck inspections It appeared to me that they are building a decent product at Rosenbauer. They were certainly busy, and the pre con was probaly the most in depth one I've sat through(2 days 8am-6pm) compared to the other manufactures we have dealt with.

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    WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SPECS ON YOUR NEW ROSENBAUER RESCUE PUMPER? Motor, Trans, Pump, Body, Etc ! Cost?

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    Its a 70inch Commander cab, 11in raised roof , Cummins ISX 12 500hp, Allison 4000 evs trans, Waterous 1500 gpm 2 stage pump, 750 water , 30 gal foam. Roll up doors all around including pump panel. Coffin compts drivers side, ladder rack officers side which stows in place of coffins on that side, light tower, 15kw pto gen, 3 Hurst reels, 1 electric reel.,portable winch. Full size hose bed. Price is in the mid to upper 600,000.ooo couple of changes coming from the pre con trip.

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    probable,

    Why such a big engine? The pump and water load don't call for that much horse power. Do you have hilly terrain?

    Not looking for a fight, my #2 POC FD is in the process of speccing a pumper and we are going with between 1200 and 1500 gallons of water and a 2000 gpm pump. Just wondering if we are going to need that big of an engine to run thi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    probable,

    Why such a big engine? The pump and water load don't call for that much horse power. Do you have hilly terrain?

    Not looking for a fight, my #2 POC FD is in the process of speccing a pumper and we are going with between 1200 and 1500 gallons of water and a 2000 gpm pump. Just wondering if we are going to need that big of an engine to run thi.
    I have to wonder what his local is like. I can see this engine going 45,000 lbs.+/-. That being the case, if his local includes lots of hills, suburban type traffic, etc., the horsepower and especially the torque will be needed to safely and expeditiously operate in it. And with the torque that engine is capable of, the 4000 series transmission is needed and its cost would be justified.

    We have that type of local. Several years ago, our neighboring department bought an off-the-shelf piece with a smaller engine to save bucks. They've regretted it ever since. Now they are buying a rescue pumper is being built to their spec and will include the same engine and transmission combination as "probable's" piece. I'm certain that they will be much happier with it.

    It's true that going with the smaller engine and the 3000 series transmission can save serious money. In my little retirement gig, I get to drive lots of them. I'm thorougly impressed with how well they perform - on flat land. But when you get to hills and traffic, you need the ability to accelerate and decelerate quickly. That takes horsepower and torque. And brakes. So I hope they're also going with the largest disc brakes on all fours.

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    As I mentioned earlier, we also have a Rosenbauer Commander on order (60" cab, 11" raised roof, 1500GPM Waterous pump with a 200CFM Eclipse CAFS, 750 gallons of water, 40 gallons of foam, 3/16" extruded aluminum body, Amdor roll-up doors, seven FRC Spectra LED floodlights, $536,000 base price, plus $20,000 in extras that the volunteers paid for such as a light tower, AM/FM radio, etc) and we chose a 450HP power plant mated to a EVS3000 transmission.

    After driving a number of demo rigs, we found that combination of horsepower & torque handled the gently rolling hills we have throughout our first, second, and third due areas. We do have two very steep grades in our first due, but we didn't want to increase the price of our rig by $25k by getting the big block (requiring a 4000 trans) for just a couple of hills that we really don't have to transverse very often at all.
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    We have a custom cab rescue pumper 500 gal water tank with disc brakes on all fours & a custom cab std pumper 750 gal water tank with drums on all fours. They both stop about the same! Which como do you prefer, driving demo rigs across country ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    We have a custom cab rescue pumper 500 gal water tank with disc brakes on all fours & a custom cab std pumper 750 gal water tank with drums on all fours. They both stop about the same! Which como do you prefer, driving demo rigs across country ?
    I'm big on disc brakes. Both of our engines have four wheel discs, even the '89 Duplex. The only thing left with drums is the '94 Freightliner/R1 (PL Custom) Special Service truck. That chassis was bought off the shelf, and we really didn't get any input into it. Also, Freightliner didn't offer air discs on them at that time.

    Most of what I drive around the country have drum brakes. Every now and then I'll get a run that takes me down the West Virginia Turnpike, and then I make full use of the engine or exhaust brake and wish for discs on the service brakes.

    I've heard strange stories about them, including people who claim that discs didn't stop as well. I remember being in PL's shop once watching Ernie Derby and his people converting an engine from discs to drum brakes. I don't remember what make or whose engine it was except that the department claimed it wouldn't stop. I haven't had that experience on anything that I've driven, ours or anything I've delivered.

    Air discs do have a somewhat different "feel" but it's not hard to get used to and once you get proficient with them you won't want to go back. I know of at least one almost panic stop that I made while driving our '89 Duplex. The chief was in the seat and he said he didn't believe I was able to make it. He felt that any of our other trucks would have hit the other vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    I'm big on disc brakes. Every now and then I'll get a run that takes me down the West Virginia Turnpike, and then I make full use of the engine or exhaust brake and wish for discs on the service brakes.


    Air discs do have a somewhat different "feel" but it's not hard to get used to and once you get proficient with them you won't want to go back. I know of at least one almost panic stop that I made while driving our '89 Duplex. The chief was in the seat and he said he didn't believe I was able to make it. He felt that any of our other trucks would have hit the other vehicle.
    The problem is you Are PROfESSIONAL TRUCK DRIVER AND KNOW HOW MUCH BETTER THE AIR DISCS ARE.

    the majority of engineers / fire truck drivers don't have the road experience you do. If they did we would not be buying automatic transmissions in every piece of fire equipment.
    We have many drivers that never learned to drive a standard truck transmission.
    Give me a 13 speed RR anytime and we'll getter done.

    With engines being specced with 450+ hp engines and automatic transmissions that have next to no holdback and you need the most brakes possible..
    Another issue is the "kids" [those under 30] tend to put it in "D" and go, instead of downshifting to 3 or 4 and keeping the truck under control.

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    Chiefengineer,

    What are you thoughts on disc's on the front or rear and drums on the other>


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