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Thread: New Pumper Purchase

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    The problem is you Are PROfESSIONAL TRUCK DRIVER AND KNOW HOW MUCH BETTER THE AIR DISCS ARE.

    the majority of engineers / fire truck drivers don't have the road experience you do. If they did we would not be buying automatic transmissions in every piece of fire equipment.
    We have many drivers that never learned to drive a standard truck transmission.
    Give me a 13 speed RR anytime and we'll getter done.

    With engines being specced with 450+ hp engines and automatic transmissions that have next to no holdback and you need the most brakes possible..
    Another issue is the "kids" [those under 30] tend to put it in "D" and go, instead of downshifting to 3 or 4 and keeping the truck under control.
    Seriously, as a guy who has driven truck for a living, it is entirely one thing to drive a truck with a standard transmission on essentially the open road, and completely another to drive one in stop and go traffic in a city environment. YES, it can be done, and is everyday, but in a fire apparatus why would you want to? What you are talking about isn't a vehicle issue it is a driver training issue.

    Frankly, a 13 speed RR would be my LAST choice for a fire truck transmission. How many of those gears would you actually use in the city to get to a call and why would you want to shift up and down a million times in traffic? No thanks. Automatic transmissions with engine brakes of one type or another have been around for decades and work just fine for PROPERLY TRAINED drivers. The issue is too many places put a guy in the driver's seat and if he make it around a couple of blocks and back to the station he passed the driving part of training. Sorry that is NOT adequate training in my mind.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFD_E73_RET View Post
    Chiefengineer,

    What are you thoughts on disc's on the front or rear and drums on the other>


    www.callofchange.com
    It gets done quite alot and the combination does work. The steer axle brakes do a huge proportion of the work. So putting discs up there is considered a viable solution. There are two big reasons for staying with drum brakes - they do cost less, and mechanics are thoroughly familiar with them.

    From my point of view though, brakes is not the place to be trying to save money. And if you have your own shop, the techs there will soon learn disc brakes.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Seriously, as a guy who has driven truck for a living, it is entirely one thing to drive a truck with a standard transmission on essentially the open road, and completely another to drive one in stop and go traffic in a city environment. YES, it can be done, and is everyday, but in a fire apparatus why would you want to? What you are talking about isn't a vehicle issue it is a driver training issue.

    Frankly, a 13 speed RR would be my LAST choice for a fire truck transmission. How many of those gears would you actually use in the city to get to a call and why would you want to shift up and down a million times in traffic? No thanks. Automatic transmissions with engine brakes of one type or another have been around for decades and work just fine for PROPERLY TRAINED drivers. The issue is too many places put a guy in the driver's seat and if he make it around a couple of blocks and back to the station he passed the driving part of training. Sorry that is NOT adequate training in my mind.
    I quite agree with the points that you make. Islandfire, I know that you're up near the North Pole someplace, but my vision of your local is that you have your share of stop and go, probably not as much as we do, but enough to appreciate not having to go through the gears after every stop or speed change. I know I certainly do.

    We grew up (at least I did) in an era where you learned to drive on a stick shift and it was just unmale to have an automatic. Now it's a fact that more and people grow up not even knowing what a stick shift is. It's something we just have to live with.

    Story: Some years ago we had a demo engine built on a Mack chassis. It had a 10-speed autoshift. It did have a clutch pedal, but the only time you used it was for starting, stopping and reverse. It was fun to drive and FAST. But we had one career EMT driver who just could not deal with the clutch. We shamed him into trying it. He got as far as the apron, stopped, got out and said he'd quit before he drove that truck.

    And I surely agree with you on training - knowing how automatic transmissions function is as important as knowing stick shift, if that's what you drive.

    And what has become of T.C.?

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    Cool Mack chassis

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    I quite agree with the points that you make. Islandfire, I know that you're up near the North Pole someplace, but my vision of your local is that you have your share of stop and go, probably not as much as we do, but enough to appreciate not having to go through the gears after every stop or speed change. I know I certainly do.

    We grew up (at least I did) in an era where you learned to drive on a stick shift and it was just unmale to have an automatic. Now it's a fact that more and people grow up not even knowing what a stick shift is. It's something we just have to live with.

    Story: Some years ago we had a demo engine built on a Mack chassis. It had a 10-speed autoshift. It did have a clutch pedal, but the only time you used it was for starting, stopping and reverse. It was fun to drive and FAST. But we had one career EMT driver who just could not deal with the clutch. We shamed him into trying it. He got as far as the apron, stopped, got out and said he'd quit before he drove that truck.

    And I surely agree with you on training - knowing how automatic transmissions function is as important as knowing stick shift, if that's what you drive.

    And what has become of T.C.?

    I can understand the hesitation of driving a Mack chassis. It's a garbage truck chassis for cripes sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    I can understand the hesitation of driving a Mack chassis. It's a garbage truck chassis for cripes sake.
    Actually, it wasn't. It began life as a CH which is a long nose conventional. The fire truck builder removed the Mack cab, did some modifications to the steering and other components, then put their proprietary fire truck cab on it. While it did have some issues that caused us to not buy it, all in all, it wasn't a bad truck. It drove quite nicely.

    If it wouldn't have been for the other issues, we might well have bought it. The builder had had it for several years as a demo, and had it priced to sell. As it turned out, they had it for another year or two. It's now with an all Mack (or was at one time) department in Adams Co., Pa. But before that department bought it, the builder took the Autoshift out and replaced it with an Allison.

    I'm sure that there are people on here who will instantly recognize what truck it is and who built it.

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    That was a real nice pumper, stainless steel body, 1500 gpm pump, it was listed as a demo for about two or three years, I think that it sold for $ 195,000 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    That was a real nice pumper, stainless steel body, 1500 gpm pump, it was listed as a demo for about two or three years, I think that it sold for $ 195,000 ?
    I agree, it truly was nice. It was offered to us at that price. What it actually sold for, I don't know. I can't believe it was too much more. I have no idea what it cost to change it to an Allison transmission. It also got painted white over green. I don't know who paid for that, but I doubt that the builder did.

    Our issues, beside the transmission (and there is much, much more to that story) was that the cab was fixed in place. It was not a tilt cab. I opened up the service flaps and tried to visualize myself changing oil and fuel filters. I couldn't find a way to do the fuel filters. I don't know if anything was ever done about that.

    Also, it was a single stage pump. Lots of people like them, but I'm not one of them. Had we gone any further with it, there would have been a pretty good fight in the committee and/or the Board of Directors. I would have wanted to change the center section to two stage. I probably would have lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    I have to wonder what his local is like. I can see this engine going 45,000 lbs.+/-. That being the case, if his local includes lots of hills, suburban type traffic, etc., the horsepower and especially the torque will be needed to safely and expeditiously operate in it. And with the torque that engine is capable of, the 4000 series transmission is needed and its cost would be justified.

    We have that type of local. Several years ago, our neighboring department bought an off-the-shelf piece with a smaller engine to save bucks. They've regretted it ever since. Now they are buying a rescue pumper is being built to their spec and will include the same engine and transmission combination as "probable's" piece. I'm certain that they will be much happier with it.

    It's true that going with the smaller engine and the 3000 series transmission can save serious money. In my little retirement gig, I get to drive lots of them. I'm thorougly impressed with how well they perform - on flat land. But when you get to hills and traffic, you need the ability to accelerate and decelerate quickly. That takes horsepower and torque. And brakes. So I hope they're also going with the largest disc brakes on all fours.
    This truck will have front disc rear drum, the 12 liter engine was actually downsized from a 15 liter that the builder had spec'd . And we do have a fair share of steep hills in our area as well as highway, etc....

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    To the OP: Have to agree with the others on here- sounds like you are looking for justification and approval to spend money on something that A. You dont need and B. You dont need. Sounds like you just dont want to be in a 17-year old rig when everyone else around you is in shinier, brighter stuff. You need to do what is fiscally responsible- and quite frankly replacing chassis that are 17 years old that have 17K miles on them is not fiscally responsible.

    I have to ask- who is/was in charge of your maintenance program? Because it sounds to me like the guy needs to be fired. I'm guessing that these two I/H chassis have I/H engines in them. Sounds like there were issues that the I/H shop didnt want to deal with as they may have been warranty (and they didnt want to wait for corporate to reimburse them for their time) or the technicians they put on it just were not doing their job. Whichever it may be, your problem is not that the chassis are 17 years old- the problem is that your engine and/or transmissions have some problems that are too vague to diagnose here. Take the trucks back to the I/H dealer, tell them to start by doing a dyno run on them both, and to fix them. Period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    To the OP: Have to agree with the others on here- sounds like you are looking for justification and approval to spend money on something that A. You dont need and B. You dont need. Sounds like you just dont want to be in a 17-year old rig when everyone else around you is in shinier, brighter stuff. You need to do what is fiscally responsible- and quite frankly replacing chassis that are 17 years old that have 17K miles on them is not fiscally responsible.

    I have to ask- who is/was in charge of your maintenance program? Because it sounds to me like the guy needs to be fired. I'm guessing that these two I/H chassis have I/H engines in them. Sounds like there were issues that the I/H shop didnt want to deal with as they may have been warranty (and they didnt want to wait for corporate to reimburse them for their time) or the technicians they put on it just were not doing their job. Whichever it may be, your problem is not that the chassis are 17 years old- the problem is that your engine and/or transmissions have some problems that are too vague to diagnose here. Take the trucks back to the I/H dealer, tell them to start by doing a dyno run on them both, and to fix them. Period.
    He doesn't want to hear that kind of logical talk...Hell if I went to my board with a 17 year old rig, with 17K miles on it, and said it needed replacing I would be laughed right out of the meeting room.
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    Post New Pumper Purchase

    Do you plan on going for a Lease Purchase to fund your new apparatus, with a ten year term ?

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