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Thread: New Pumper Purchase

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    Default New Pumper Purchase

    Our department has twin eone international commercial cab top mount pumpers that were purchased in 96. They are good trucks and have about 17k miles on them. We need to upgrade for safety and efficiency of course. We we going to get the chassis refurbished because the pumps and body are fine. I contacted eone and got a quote of $328k, not a bad price for both, but that was for each. A little steep, especially when that's what a new truck costs. We were talking directly to eone instead of going through a dealer, we knocked off some of the custom lights and other things and the price was still high. I ventured out and looked at other dealers/manufacturers. Rosenbauer has a nice truck with that Commander series, I don't like the fact that they just began making their own chassis though. Spartan caught my attention and is really the only piece of equipment that appeals to us because of price. A demo 1000 gal pumper is around 260k-280k. My department has always gone with eone and we are close to Sunbelt so they like the fact that the service department is so close. Spartan dealer/service is about the same distance but their facilities are not much compared to eone. I want to know who has had experience with both, I know Spartan has a solid chassis because everyone used them or still does.

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    That sounds crazy to me. We just put a brand new International/E-ONE in the station last year for just shy of 200k. Another 150k on top for just a refurb is nuts!

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    You can buy new pumpers for that amount of money. Some of the price difference is between a commercial and the custom cab. Don't discount the Rosenbauer cab, the are doing well with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    Our department has twin eone international commercial cab top mount pumpers that were purchased in 96. They are good trucks and have about 17k miles on them. We need to upgrade for safety and efficiency of course.
    Replacing rigs that are getting 1000/miles a year each? While a custom cab pumper will provide additional safety beyond what a commercial cab will, I'm struggling to see the need for apparatus replacement.

    We we going to get the chassis refurbished because the pumps and body are fine. I contacted eone and got a quote of $328k, not a bad price for both, but that was for each. A little steep, especially when that's what a new truck costs.
    What did the quote include? For this price, that's the cost of a new cab and chassis, replacing the electrical system, rebuilding the pump, upgrading the lights, and more. Something just isn't right with that price.

    I ventured out and looked at other dealers/manufacturers. Rosenbauer has a nice truck with that Commander series, I don't like the fact that they just began making their own chassis though.
    I might be biased since we have a Commander pumper on order, but I think they're certainly worth looking at. They've sold close to 600 copies of this cab so far.

    Spartan caught my attention and is really the only piece of equipment that appeals to us because of price. A demo 1000 gal pumper is around 260k-280k.
    Is this a Spartan ERV rig, or another manufacturer using the Spartan cab & chassis?

    I want to know who has had experience with both, I know Spartan has a solid chassis because everyone used them or still does.
    Spartan does have a good cab & chassis, there's no doubt about that. That being said, so does HME, KME, Pierce, Rosenbauer, E-One, and just about everyone else out there. You'll find people here on the forum that have good and bad experiences with each of the above manufacturers. Since it looks like you'll be in the market for a demo rig for the money you have available, it will be very important that you have someone knowledgeable in apparatus specifications, construction, and inspection take a look at any vehicles you're considering purchasing so you don't end up stuck with a flawed fire engine for the next 15 years.
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    Smile Tradition Series

    Did your department look into E-One's Tradition Series custom Pumper, which can be had for about $320K & up and maybe less for a demo !

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    What is the thinking for a full rebuild versus selected upgrades? 17 K on a truck is nothing in the fire service world. The new rigs are fine but the new diesels are garbage!

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    The trucks are old and need to be updated.

    Refurb quote was for a 6 man typhoon chassis,repaint body, upgrade to all nfpa specs.

    New truck is a Spartan ERV legend series.
    Last edited by josh3102; 08-24-2013 at 11:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    The trucks are old and need to be updated.
    At the risk of sounding like a slang term for male genitalia, can you please help me understand the "need" to update a 17-year fire engine with 17,000 miles. Based on a 1000 mile per year average, it's probably safe to assume that there aren't an incredible amount of engine hours or pump hours either.

    You're still well within the NFPA 1901 average lifespan for front-line engines as well.

    If your department has $300k sitting around, then by all means, please purchase and/or refurb the existing rigs. However, I'm still not clear on what's occurred that no longer makes these engines effective for your department.
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    I can see a rig of this age needing some new lights and maybe a a bit of minor plumbing but a full blown refurd no way. There is no need to waste money on a refurb,it would be better to save the money up and buy a newer truck that has more features if that is the issue.

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    How can your fire department " Justify " to your local government or fire district on spending $ 600k on two pumpers with very little miles or use. There are many fire department in fifty states running Commercial cab fire apparatus without safety concerns ! Hold onto the two rigs for a few more years and then look at getting new apparatus in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    How can your fire department " Justify " to your local government or fire district on spending $ 600k on two pumpers with very little miles or use. There are many fire department in fifty states running Commercial cab fire apparatus without safety concerns ! Hold onto the two rigs for a few more years and then look at getting new apparatus in the future.
    Justification should come from facts, not the lack of concern from fire departments in 50 other states IGNORING safety concerns.

    Look at a few photographs of commercial cab fire apparatus compared to custom cab apparatus, especially rollover accidents, and the reasons become blatantly obvious.

    Any fire department that values the lives of its employees or volunteers should not chose look at custom chassis fire apparatus as an option.

    All in rollover accidents. I know which ones I'd rather be in if I had a choice.











    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 08-25-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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    The cost difference between commercial and custom is unfortunately a deciding factor for some departments, but as posted, there's no comparison between the two when it comes to safety.
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    The biggest reason any apparatus is going to wreck is the human factor. A commercial versus a custom cab is not a solid reason for replacing apparatus. If the apparatus is being updated for ISO and more crew capacity then I can see spending money. The one down side to commercial cabs is the lack of room for crews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    The cost difference between commercial and custom is unfortunately a deciding factor for some departments, but as posted, there's no comparison between the two when it comes to safety.
    Agreed. If they don'y have the money, they don't have the option. I have however, seen many departments get good used appartaus at some very good prices.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 08-25-2013 at 08:18 PM.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    The engine may not have many miles on it but even after a complete service it needs to sit and run for a few minutes before it will even budge. Once it gets warm enough it will creep for about 1/2 a mile. Doesn't help response times. My department isn't the wealthiest by any means but we are blessed to be able to equip ourselves with what we need. Another giant factor is safety. You don't realize how bad commercial cabs are until you are cutting another fire fighters body out of one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    How can your fire department " Justify " to your local government or fire district on spending $ 600k on two pumpers with very little miles or use. There are many fire department in fifty states running Commercial cab fire apparatus without safety concerns ! Hold onto the two rigs for a few more years and then look at getting new apparatus in the future.
    We are our own entity, we don't have to justify anything. I can get 2 new Spartan erv legends for 240k each, sell the used pumpers for around 60k. Looks better than our last purchase of a Eone typhoon 2500 gal tanker/pumper at 530k. Ridiculous I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    Looks better than our last purchase of a Eone typhoon 2500 gal tanker/pumper at 530k. Ridiculous I know.
    It's probably all relative to the department, taxpayers, and area of the US where the sale is made. The CAFS pumper we have on order was $536k.
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    Josh your saying your a non tax supported fire department?
    It sounds like a maintenance issue over the age of apparatus. Something is is really wrong if the truck wont start and run. Sounds like it needs to have a mechanical inspection by a third party shop.

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    It's good news that your department is it's own entity, and you do not have to answer to any local government officials on your spending. I agree with you on going out and getting two new pumpers due to safety reasons, there are not many fire departments that can do what your's is. Two years ago we had a public meeting to purchase a new aerial truck at a cost of $750k, the residents said no way are we going to fund the purchase of a new apparatus, they wanted to close down the fire house !

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    Josh your saying your a non tax supported fire department?
    It sounds like a maintenance issue over the age of apparatus. Something is is really wrong if the truck wont start and run. Sounds like it needs to have a mechanical inspection by a third party shop.
    We receive a cut of an ad valorem tax in our county that comes from tag and tobacco sales. Not much but it helps. We put on a festival 2 times a year that most of our funds come from. We can profit about 40k in a year when we have good festivals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    It's good news that your department is it's own entity, and you do not have to answer to any local government officials on your spending. I agree with you on going out and getting two new pumpers due to safety reasons, there are not many fire departments that can do what your's is. Two years ago we had a public meeting to purchase a new aerial truck at a cost of $750k, the residents said no way are we going to fund the purchase of a new apparatus, they wanted to close down the fire house !
    That's the reason we became our own entity, we had the wolf at the door there for a while. Let this be a warning to any departments that are not incorporated themselves or a munincipality. Things may be nice now but once the council finds out what they can achieve when they take you over then they will surely do it. Granted they cannot use funds for any other purpose than fire protection it still looks good for them when they get state bonds. Another department close to us had their town take them over and instead of paying for the new apparatus and equipment they desperately needed they used the money to install a hydrant system on a new highway with no development currently on it. It might be beneficial for some departments to become a part of their town but in our case our funds exceed theirs. Maybe one day we can be on good terms. I would like to continue but I shouldn't. Lets just say they want us bad enough to kick us out of the town if we don't conform, if we don't turn over to them they will contract another department. However we do not charge the town for our services and our jd goes further than the town limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    The engine may not have many miles on it but even after a complete service it needs to sit and run for a few minutes before it will even budge. Once it gets warm enough it will creep for about 1/2 a mile. Doesn't help response times. My department isn't the wealthiest by any means but we are blessed to be able to equip ourselves with what we need. Another giant factor is safety. You don't realize how bad commercial cabs are until you are cutting another fire fighters body out of one.
    Frankly, until you guys learn how to take care of the apparatus you have purchasing new apparatus is a waste of money. My #1 POC FD retired a 1974 Mack CF engine 2 years ago, so it was 37 years old and was still in front line service. It was finally retired because of rust issues and failing the vacuum part of the pump test. How did we keep it in service for so long? MAINTEANCE! Plain and simple, We annually had the truck maintained. It went it for pump service and DOT inspection and needed repairs. If we had any issues we got this rig in a repaired. We didn't hem and haw, we didn't put it off, we didn't accept that this is the way it is. We run a 2005 and a 1985 engine and they get the same standard of maintenance that the old Mack did.

    Personally my opinion is whoever is doing your maintenance and repairs needs to be REPLACED IMMEDIATELY. How anyone would accept what you are saying your rig is doing is beyond me. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that truck and it needs attention RIGHT NOW. Unless it is all Bull Schite to justify getting new rigs.

    By the way, I own the old Mack CF and sshe still runs and pumps like a champ. However I realize that if i don't maintain it it will not continue to do that. I have an appointment to get the pump maintained and the engine serviced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Frankly, until you guys learn how to take care of the apparatus you have purchasing new apparatus is a waste of money. My #1 POC FD retired a 1974 Mack CF engine 2 years ago, so it was 37 years old and was still in front line service. It was finally retired because of rust issues and failing the vacuum part of the pump test. How did we keep it in service for so long? MAINTEANCE! Plain and simple, We annually had the truck maintained. It went it for pump service and DOT inspection and needed repairs. If we had any issues we got this rig in a repaired. We didn't hem and haw, we didn't put it off, we didn't accept that this is the way it is. We run a 2005 and a 1985 engine and they get the same standard of maintenance that the old Mack did.

    Personally my opinion is whoever is doing your maintenance and repairs needs to be REPLACED IMMEDIATELY. How anyone would accept what you are saying your rig is doing is beyond me. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with that truck and it needs attention RIGHT NOW. Unless it is all Bull Schite to justify getting new rigs.

    By the way, I own the old Mack CF and sshe still runs and pumps like a champ. However I realize that if i don't maintain it it will not continue to do that. I have an appointment to get the pump maintained and the engine serviced.
    We have scheduled maintenance for all of our trucks with Sunbelt, the outfitter/service center for Eone. We go with them because we did not believe the last mechanic that looked at them and said the same thing. The trucks are at an outlying sub station and since 08 don't get used as often. So we began rotating them out thinking that would help. It didn't. We have an 89 Ford tanker that will out pump anything we have, 3 quick attack Chevrolet Silverado 2500 gas engines that carry 250 gal skid units. We don't have serious problems with any of our other trucks. By all means if you would like to come and do all of the mechanic work yourself feel free. Ill wait, and be standing there to say "told ya so". Same team, don't bash me or my departments ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh3102 View Post
    We have scheduled maintenance for all of our trucks with Sunbelt, the outfitter/service center for Eone. We go with them because we did not believe the last mechanic that looked at them and said the same thing. The trucks are at an outlying sub station and since 08 don't get used as often. So we began rotating them out thinking that would help. It didn't. We have an 89 Ford tanker that will out pump anything we have, 3 quick attack Chevrolet Silverado 2500 gas engines that carry 250 gal skid units. We don't have serious problems with any of our other trucks. By all means if you would like to come and do all of the mechanic work yourself feel free. Ill wait, and be standing there to say "told ya so". Same team, don't bash me or my departments ability.
    You posted this:

    The engine may not have many miles on it but even after a complete service it needs to sit and run for a few minutes before it will even budge. Once it gets warm enough it will creep for about 1/2 a mile.
    Actually, I didn't bash YOU or YOUR FD, I bashed whoever does your repair work. I don't know jack squat about your FD and further don't really care. According to you your original mechanic and now the E-One dealer can't find this problem. So instead of pursuing this further you accept it as is? Ever think of taking it to an International dealer?

    I never said I was a mechanic so your idiotic, and frankly childish, comments about me coming there and doing your mechanic work are meaningless. I can tell you I would be pushing hard for answers as to what is wrong instead of just accepting it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You posted this:



    Actually, I didn't bash YOU or YOUR FD, I bashed whoever does your repair work. I don't know jack squat about your FD and further don't really care. According to you your original mechanic and now the E-One dealer can't find this problem. So instead of pursuing this further you accept it as is? Ever think of taking it to an International dealer?

    I never said I was a mechanic so your idiotic, and frankly childish, comments about me coming there and doing your mechanic work are meaningless. I can tell you I would be pushing hard for answers as to what is wrong instead of just accepting it.
    You're right, you caught us. There is nothing wrong with the trucks. They work fine. We are getting new trucks because we can. Funds are good and we are going to blow them like a kid in vegas. Probably going to outfit them with a bunch of equipment that we will never use. Now that I think about it, forget the pumper. I will get Eone to start producing the Bronto tiller again and just buy 2 of those. Thanks guy.

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