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Thread: Ladder with pump or without?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    I am retired from a rural VFD member and we looked at things from a limited resource angle.
    I think building a ladder with a pump but no tank would give you less than optimal use for the expense. kinda like the worst of two worlds. or maybe more like straddling the fence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you and perhaps if you had read any of my other posts you would see I have been a supporter of the quint in specific FDs. My comment that you quoted was in direct rebuttal to what SuperFire123 said.
    Not saying you are a supporter or non-supporter. Just making the statement that people should not blame the truck for their manpower situations.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post

    Quint:
    1. >75 aerial with a pre-piped waterway
    2. 1000GPM pump or greater
    3 >300 gallons of water.
    4. >85 feet of ground ladders
    5. 30CF of supply line storage and 7CF of attack line storage

    ...
    Hmmm....had a 50' Ladder with pre-piped waterway, 1500 pump, 450 water, ~45' ground ladders, 1000' of 5", 500' of 2 1/2", 2 x 200' 1 3/4" preconnects. Not a Quint? a "Junior" Quint?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Not saying you are a supporter or non-supporter. Just making the statement that people should not blame the truck for their manpower situations.
    It isn't responsible for the manpower shortage, it is just jammed down the throats of firefighters where staffing was cut as the "end all, be all, solluntion" to the staffing cuts. And that my friend is a Damnable LIE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Not saying you are a supporter or non-supporter. Just making the statement that people should not blame the truck for their manpower situations.
    True enough the blame rests squarely on those who don't work to solve the issues and set themselves up for failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hmmm....had a 50' Ladder with pre-piped waterway, 1500 pump, 450 water, ~45' ground ladders, 1000' of 5", 500' of 2 1/2", 2 x 200' 1 3/4" preconnects. Not a Quint? a "Junior" Quint?
    Not a quint - an engine company with an elevated master stream. Some places call them (be it a Squrt, Snoozle, Teleboom, WaterChief, etc) "trucks" but I suppose it's up to interpretation.

    The Squrt I purchased a couple of years ago was referred to as a truck by that department - it was replaced with a 105' quint.
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    The following can be found in NFPA 1901 2009 edition.

    3.3.146* Quint. Fire apparatus with a permanently mounted
    fire pump, a water tank, a hose storage area, an aerial ladder
    or elevating platform with a permanently mounted waterway,
    and a complement of ground ladders.

    9.2.1 The apparatus shall be equipped with a fire pump that
    meets the requirements of Chapter 16 and has a minimum
    rated capacity of 1000 gpm (4000 L/min).

    9.3 Aerial Device. The apparatus shall be equipped with an
    aerial ladder or an elevating platform with a permanently installed
    waterway that meets the requirements of Chapter 19.

    19.2 Aerial Ladder Requirements.
    19.2.1 The aerial ladder shall consist of two or more ladder
    sections that, together with the steps and platforms on the
    apparatus body, provide continuous egress for fire fighters
    and civilians from an elevated position to the ground.

    19.2.2 The rated vertical height of an aerial ladder shall be at
    least 50 ft (15 m) and shall be measured vertically with the
    ladder at maximum elevation and extension from the outermost
    rung of the outermost fly section to the ground.



    9.4 Water Tank. The apparatus shall be equipped with a water
    tank(s) that meets the requirements of Chapter 18 and that
    has a minimum certified capacity (combined, if applicable) of
    300 gal (1100 L).

    9.5* Equipment Storage. A minimum of 40 ft3 (1.1 m3) of
    enclosed weather-resistant compartmentation that meets the
    requirements of Section 15.1 shall be provided for the storage
    of equipment.

    9.6* Hose Storage. Hose bed area(s), compartments, or reels
    that comply with Section 15.10 shall be provided to accommodate
    the following:

    (1) A minimum hose storage area of 30 ft3 (0.8 m3) for 2 1/2 in.
    (65 mm) or larger fire hose

    (2) Two areas, each a minimum of 3.5 ft3 (0.1 m3), to accommodate
    1 1/2 in. (38 mm) or larger pre-connected fire hose lines


    9.7.1.1 The quint shall carry a minimum of 85 ft (26 m) of
    fire department ground ladders to include at least one extension
    ladder, one straight ladder equipped with roof hooks,
    and one folding ladder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    True enough the blame rests squarely on those who don't work to solve the issues and set themselves up for failure.
    If the implication here is the problem lies on the shoulders of the firefighters I adamantly disagree. The problem lies with city administrations that don't know our job, and don't care to listen or learn, then cut staffing to bare bones and fire chiefs that care more about keeping their jobs than doing the right thing, or even worse, are hired from the outside with no personal ties to the firefighters, purposely to cut staffing.

    My former Union worked with the Fire chief to keep 12 firefighters from being laid off. Sadly, things have changed and while no one has been laid off staffing has dropped through attrition and daily minimums keep dropping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hmmm....had a 50' Ladder with pre-piped waterway, 1500 pump, 450 water, ~45' ground ladders, 1000' of 5", 500' of 2 1/2", 2 x 200' 1 3/4" preconnects. Not a Quint? a "Junior" Quint?
    .... Squint?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If the implication here is the problem lies on the shoulders of the firefighters I adamantly disagree. The problem lies with city administrations that don't know our job, and don't care to listen or learn, then cut staffing to bare bones and fire chiefs that care more about keeping their jobs than doing the right thing, or even worse, are hired from the outside with no personal ties to the firefighters, purposely to cut staffing.

    My former Union worked with the Fire chief to keep 12 firefighters from being laid off. Sadly, things have changed and while no one has been laid off staffing has dropped through attrition and daily minimums keep dropping.
    Clearly the latter of the two. Hard to fault the guys who come to work and are forced to do more with less. My issue is that quints allow the current chief or the next "hatchet" chief to cut staffing while telling lay people no reduction in service is to be expected. The general public doesn't understand company tactics and despite our reputation as stellar educators, they don't know how many firefighters it takes to mount an offensive attack (or why they'd want one).

    To me, 95% (5% shmit luck) of the time a quint can only be one or the other, so you in essences have one less functional piece of apparatus, in a volunteer setting maybe that's all you can staff right now, in a career job, it's likely there will be a day that's all they will staff.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-30-2013 at 05:05 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words
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    That is one point I have been trying get thru don't sell yourselves short,buy for the future needs not today's needs. With budgets being so ever changing and call volumes changing departments need to be more open to alternative thinking about apparatus features. I see a lot of local departments buying based on trends instead of studying local fire call history and population growth and the current district roads and what possibly can be future coverage issues. What fits today's needs may lead to a shortage in the future. Giving the apparatus the extra option may not be need now but in the future could be a saving grace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    I am retired from a rural VFD member and we looked at things from a limited resource angle.
    So seriously, in the majority of cases in today's fire service who doesn't? My #1 POC FD has 2 engines, a tender and a brush truck, my #2 POC FD has 2 engines, 2 tenders, a heavy rescue, and 2 brush trucks. It is not like we have multiple stations and unlimited equipment and manpower.

    The truth is in some cases a combination rig like a tanker pumper, or a rescue engine, or perhaps a quint, may be a good idea. But trying to force a combination rig in with no other motivation than " we looked at things from a limited resource angle" may not get you what you really need to get the job done. Further, what works for you in yur little corner of the world may be 100% wrong for almost everywhere else. There is no one size fits all in the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    That is one point I have been trying get thru don't sell yourselves short,buy for the future needs not today's needs. With budgets being so ever changing and call volumes changing departments need to be more open to alternative thinking about apparatus features. I see a lot of local departments buying based on trends instead of studying local fire call history and population growth and the current district roads and what possibly can be future coverage issues. What fits today's needs may lead to a shortage in the future. Giving the apparatus the extra option may not be need now but in the future could be a saving grace.
    And if you try to do too much with one rig you could be buying a morphodite, oversized, piece of junk that will be an abaltross around the neck of firefighters for the next 2 decades. Planning, as you said is vitally important, but it needs to be based on REALISTIC expectations and not pipe dreams of what, possibly, may be the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ....but it needs to be based on REALISTIC expectations and not pipe dreams of what, possibly, may be the future.
    So me speccing out an airport crash rescue monster cause someday a 737 flying overhead may crash in my town is a bad idea?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .... Squint?
    Taint. Taint Ladder, taint engine.

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    I have a part-time job designing fire apparatus. Fyredup got it right. I see so many small communities that don't have a clue what they need except it has to be big and expensive. The fact that it's not the right fit for the FD or the community plays no part in it. There is a substantial difference in what you need and what you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So me speccing out an airport crash rescue monster cause someday a 737 flying overhead may crash in my town is a bad idea?
    Hmmm....I would think if you put an aerial on top of it you could justify it...

    I always thought when I was a CFR FF that our heavy rig, 2000 gpm pump, 3300 gallons of water, 500 gallons of foam, 500 pound of dry chem, with a roof and bumper turret, as well as a 200 foot 1 3/4 inch front preconnect, would have made an awesome first in rig for rural fires. Especially barn fires and such. But then again it weighed 77,000 pounds and was huge. Probably a lot of country roads it would have destroyed just driving on them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim54 View Post
    I have a part-time job designing fire apparatus. Fyredup got it right. I see so many small communities that don't have a clue what they need except it has to be big and expensive. The fact that it's not the right fit for the FD or the community plays no part in it. There is a substantial difference in what you need and what you want.
    When I decided I was going to attempt to sell fire trucks my greatest frustration was going somewhere that siad they wanted to buy an engine and walking in to find they had no wish list or something so minimal that it was no help at all. I figured it wasn't my job to talk you into anything, it was my job to listen and perhaps throw out an idea here or there. If I esign the truck and it isn't what you wanted or needed it is definitely my fault, if after talking to you you still buy something that isn't what you want or need then it is your fault.

    No, I don't sell fire trucks anymore. I found it really wasn't for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabutler515 View Post
    Thanks for all the input! Our coverage area is mostly rural with two villages This here is a good reason to have pumping option ____________> couple hotels. This here is a good reason to have pumping option ____________>We have an Industrail park. We run the state turnpike.
    My main issue with this is the main reason they say we need a ladder with a pump is "if the ladder is the first on scene we can't do any thing until the engine gets there"! My response is usually a head shake and "Wow"!!
    We have a good mutual aid response.
    That why I posted this is to see what other departments are doing and have done!
    There's a lot of good information and points that I am getting so thanks!
    Read the marked areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    Read the marked areas.
    In and of themselves, the 2 things you highlighted are not justifications for a quint. It is dependent on number of apparatus, specifically engines, and staffing. If they have enough engines then buying a quint simply because it may, possibly, someday, maybe, if a conflagration occurs, have to supply itself makes no sense at all. If they are down on pumping capacity then perhaps it makes sense to buy a quint. I can't see any reason at all, and especially in a rural setting, to buy a ladder truck with a pump and no onboard water. Talk about a morphodite if you are buying it to be able to pump if it arrives first or alone at a fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    When I decided I was going to attempt to sell fire trucks my greatest frustration was going somewhere that siad they wanted to buy an engine and walking in to find they had no wish list or something so minimal that it was no help at all. I figured it wasn't my job to talk you into anything, it was my job to listen and perhaps throw out an idea here or there. If I esign the truck and it isn't what you wanted or needed it is definitely my fault, if after talking to you you still buy something that isn't what you want or need then it is your fault.

    No, I don't sell fire trucks anymore. I found it really wasn't for me.
    I would think this would be a troubling predicament for anyone who is passionate about the fire service. So many varying opinions, and situation that what works well in one dept may not in another for numerous factors.

    Some FD's have no clue what they want or need, just they can't run the old truck anymore and need to replace it. They often only look as far as their nearest mutual aid (that they think is worthy) and at the magazines on the dayroom table and shoot from the hip. I know of many Fd's that go into sales meeting knowing only the type of apparatus (ladder, engine, rescue, tanker) and the amount they have budgeted.

    Others go all out to ensure they're specs represent the mission of the apparatus and are typically more knowledgeable than many of the salesmen who come calling.

    We have one local salesman who we had great dealings with, who knew the products and the options and was a true help in the process, but then ended up being totally off putting to a a few other local FD's. It may have been that he misread the audience in at least one case and went in too strong. I can imagine a salesman must be very patient and laid back until he knows the politics of the room. This tends to be hard for firefighters who end up in sales, as we tend to be pretty forward leaning.

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    I sold used apparatus for a while, and a couple of times I refused to sell a vehicle to a department because it was way off base to their needs/area. P!ssed em off big time. A couple threatened to sue me.
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