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Thread: Ladder with pump or without?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    A ladder with a pump is not a quint! A quint must have a tank ! I am talking about a apparatus that is designed to pump water from a static source only.
    An aerial whose other mission is to be the supply engine? While a quint may have a tank, the designation means nothing, it's he functional use. You could have a typical "quint" without the tank and in my eyes be even further from useful, as you'd prove it could never be first in, why not just save the money and buy a straight truck? Is this apparatus replacing another? If so, what was it and how was it used?


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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    An aerial whose other mission is to be the supply engine? While a quint may have a tank, the designation means nothing, it's he functional use. You could have a typical "quint" without the tank and in my eyes be even further from useful, as you'd prove it could never be first in, why not just save the money and buy a straight truck? Is this apparatus replacing another? If so, what was it and how was it used?
    Actually, technically you can NOT have a quint without the tank. A quint requires, pump, tank, hose, ground ladders, and an aerial device. All five components make up a quint, so technically without a tank you would have a morphodite quad. A quad normally has pump, tank, hose, and ground ladders.

    I know of a couple of quints in this area that carry hard suction for portatank ops at rural fires.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 09-28-2013 at 11:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While a quint may have a tank, the designation means nothing, it's he functional use. You could have a typical "quint" without the tank and in my eyes be even further from useful, as you'd prove it could never be first in, why not just save the money and buy a straight truck?
    I'm not sure if I'm picking up what you're putting down, but without a tank, you don't have a quint.

    Quint:
    1. >75 aerial with a pre-piped waterway
    2. 1000GPM pump or greater
    3 >300 gallons of water.
    4. >85 feet of ground ladders
    5. 30CF of supply line storage and 7CF of attack line storage

    There are a lot of departments that are willing to sacrifice a given amount of storage space and put a pump on a ladder truck simply to eliminate the need for the pumper. They never intended for it to be a quint, don't run it as a quint, but can still use the pump to supply the aerial waterway.

    The selection of a pump (and/or tank) is such a subjective issue, it has to be examined department-by-department. Obviously, many department's struggle with the "what if the ladder shows up first with no pump or water?" Well, perform a rescue where practical and absolutely necessary (VEIS), confine the fire, but the 2.5 gallon cans on it, don't break windows until a hoseline is in place. Yes, it will seem like eternity waiting for the engine to arrive, but think about it - relative to the number of calls we go on, versus the amount of those that are fire related, versus the amount that are working fires, how often is that really going to happen? As someone who runs only dry ladder trucks (all RM ladder towers) in his department, I can give you the answer: RARELY, if ever.

    Our reason for running dry aerials? Our towers also run as heavy rescues (like Denver), so we need a lot of compartment space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I'm not sure if I'm picking up what you're putting down, but without a tank, you don't have a quint.

    Quint:
    1. >75 aerial with a pre-piped waterway
    2. 1000GPM pump or greater
    3 >300 gallons of water.
    4. >85 feet of ground ladders
    5. 30CF of supply line storage and 7CF of attack line storage

    There are a lot of departments that are willing to sacrifice a given amount of storage space and put a pump on a ladder truck simply to eliminate the need for the pumper. They never intended for it to be a quint, don't run it as a quint, but can still use the pump to supply the aerial waterway.

    The selection of a pump (and/or tank) is such a subjective issue, it has to be examined department-by-department. Obviously, many department's struggle with the "what if the ladder shows up first with no pump or water?" Well, perform a rescue where practical and absolutely necessary (VEIS), confine the fire, but the 2.5 gallon cans on it, don't break windows until a hoseline is in place. Yes, it will seem like eternity waiting for the engine to arrive, but think about it - relative to the number of calls we go on, versus the amount of those that are fire related, versus the amount that are working fires, how often is that really going to happen? As someone who runs only dry ladder trucks (all RM ladder towers) in his department, I can give you the answer: RARELY, if ever.

    Our reason for running dry aerials? Our towers also run as heavy rescues (like Denver), so we need a lot of compartment space.
    You got my point. I am talking about a 750 or 1000 GPM 160 PSI, can be use to boost pressure or a quick attack from a water source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    You got my point. I am talking about a 750 or 1000 GPM 160 PSI, can be use to boost pressure or a quick attack from a water source.
    "quick attack " from a water source ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    An aerial whose other mission is to be the supply engine? While a quint may have a tank, the designation means nothing, it's the functional use. You could have a typical "quint" without the tank and in my eyes be even further from useful, as you'd prove it could never be first in, why not just save the money and buy a straight truck? Is this apparatus replacing another? If so, what was it and how was it used?
    I guess I didn't make myself clear enough with the preceding sentence and quotes (air quotes would have been unmistakable)? Call it what you want, but if you basically build a truck like most of the common "quints" are built today but without the tank, you'll have a "quad?" or what ever you want to call it that's even less useful. Now remove the hose altogether and be a pure aerial with a pressure boosting pump, and you'll be a truck that doesn't need an aerial tucked up it's caboose at the "big one".

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    Let me throw in another possible complication-POLITICS.

    We are a suburban 5 station department that used to run 2 truck/rescue companies (two pieces of apparatus, cross-manned) and 5 engines. Due to budget cuts, both truck companies were taken out of service. The chief sold a Tower Ladder Quint, a 75' Quint, and a Rescue to buy a used ladder with no pump or tank-so we could carry all the rescue gear on the ladder. One engine was taken out of service, and replaced by the no-pump ladder. It is the only ladder without a pump/tank in the county. It wasn't long before the ladder, running alone, got caught for extended times at fires without an engine company.

    The union tried to fight the budget cuts and argued against stationing a truck without a tank/pump by itself. They pointed out we bought the pump-less ladder from a city that replaced double company houses with single quints. Citizens complained the fire department was showing up at fires and couldn't put the fire out. The other chiefs in the county complained to our city and changed the mutual aid policy to exclude our truck, as they did not want a ladder without pump filling their stations, or tying up an engine for supply at fires.

    Based on all of this, the city administration forced the chief to keep 5 engines in service. The chief wants 4 engines/1 truck, so to make his point that we need the ladder in service, he will not allow us to redistribute any of the ladder company equipment. So, after being very truck company oriented for almost 20 years, we go to fires with no saws, no fans, and no ladders over 28'.

    Our 1990 quint, which was supposed to be moved to reserve after the purchase of the no pump ladder, has spent 9 months in the shop getting almost $100,000 worth of repairs, including a new motor. The plan when it returns is to cross man the ladders-Quint when first due, straight ladder on other calls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    Let me throw in another possible complication-POLITICS.

    We are a suburban 5 station department that used to run 2 truck/rescue companies (two pieces of apparatus, cross-manned) and 5 engines. Due to budget cuts, both truck companies were taken out of service. The chief sold a Tower Ladder Quint, a 75' Quint, and a Rescue to buy a used ladder with no pump or tank-so we could carry all the rescue gear on the ladder. One engine was taken out of service, and replaced by the no-pump ladder. It is the only ladder without a pump/tank in the county. It wasn't long before the ladder, running alone, got caught for extended times at fires without an engine company.

    The union tried to fight the budget cuts and argued against stationing a truck without a tank/pump by itself. They pointed out we bought the pump-less ladder from a city that replaced double company houses with single quints. Citizens complained the fire department was showing up at fires and couldn't put the fire out. The other chiefs in the county complained to our city and changed the mutual aid policy to exclude our truck, as they did not want a ladder without pump filling their stations, or tying up an engine for supply at fires.

    Based on all of this, the city administration forced the chief to keep 5 engines in service. The chief wants 4 engines/1 truck, so to make his point that we need the ladder in service, he will not allow us to redistribute any of the ladder company equipment. So, after being very truck company oriented for almost 20 years, we go to fires with no saws, no fans, and no ladders over 28'.

    Our 1990 quint, which was supposed to be moved to reserve after the purchase of the no pump ladder, has spent 9 months in the shop getting almost $100,000 worth of repairs, including a new motor. The plan when it returns is to cross man the ladders-Quint when first due, straight ladder on other calls.
    This what I am saying in a nut shell. The only reason to have a pump is to provide another tool on the apparatus. It is no different then adding a generator. Having a pump helps if you get a big fire and need more pressure on the fire ground. A ladder with out a monitor seems to be a common thing,even a 500 GPM monitor can useful, the water way can be used to supply hand lines on a higher fire floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    This what I am saying in a nut shell. The only reason to have a pump is to provide another tool on the apparatus. It is no different then adding a generator. Having a pump helps if you get a big fire and need more pressure on the fire ground. A ladder with out a monitor seems to be a common thing,even a 500 GPM monitor can useful, the water way can be used to supply hand lines on a higher fire floor.
    SuperFire123,

    I have to ask...Are you a firefighter, a junior, a wannabe or what? Because so much of what you posts shows either little or no knowledge of fire apparatus, or standards that apply to them, or in reality, makes no sense at al when talking about tactics.
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    I am retired from a rural VFD member and we looked at things from a limited resource angle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    I am retired from a rural VFD member and we looked at things from a limited resource angle.
    I think building a ladder with a pump but no tank would give you less than optimal use for the expense. kinda like the worst of two worlds. or maybe more like straddling the fence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you and perhaps if you had read any of my other posts you would see I have been a supporter of the quint in specific FDs. My comment that you quoted was in direct rebuttal to what SuperFire123 said.
    Not saying you are a supporter or non-supporter. Just making the statement that people should not blame the truck for their manpower situations.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post

    Quint:
    1. >75 aerial with a pre-piped waterway
    2. 1000GPM pump or greater
    3 >300 gallons of water.
    4. >85 feet of ground ladders
    5. 30CF of supply line storage and 7CF of attack line storage

    ...
    Hmmm....had a 50' Ladder with pre-piped waterway, 1500 pump, 450 water, ~45' ground ladders, 1000' of 5", 500' of 2 1/2", 2 x 200' 1 3/4" preconnects. Not a Quint? a "Junior" Quint?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Not saying you are a supporter or non-supporter. Just making the statement that people should not blame the truck for their manpower situations.
    It isn't responsible for the manpower shortage, it is just jammed down the throats of firefighters where staffing was cut as the "end all, be all, solluntion" to the staffing cuts. And that my friend is a Damnable LIE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Not saying you are a supporter or non-supporter. Just making the statement that people should not blame the truck for their manpower situations.
    True enough the blame rests squarely on those who don't work to solve the issues and set themselves up for failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hmmm....had a 50' Ladder with pre-piped waterway, 1500 pump, 450 water, ~45' ground ladders, 1000' of 5", 500' of 2 1/2", 2 x 200' 1 3/4" preconnects. Not a Quint? a "Junior" Quint?
    Not a quint - an engine company with an elevated master stream. Some places call them (be it a Squrt, Snoozle, Teleboom, WaterChief, etc) "trucks" but I suppose it's up to interpretation.

    The Squrt I purchased a couple of years ago was referred to as a truck by that department - it was replaced with a 105' quint.
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    The following can be found in NFPA 1901 2009 edition.

    3.3.146* Quint. Fire apparatus with a permanently mounted
    fire pump, a water tank, a hose storage area, an aerial ladder
    or elevating platform with a permanently mounted waterway,
    and a complement of ground ladders.

    9.2.1 The apparatus shall be equipped with a fire pump that
    meets the requirements of Chapter 16 and has a minimum
    rated capacity of 1000 gpm (4000 L/min).

    9.3 Aerial Device. The apparatus shall be equipped with an
    aerial ladder or an elevating platform with a permanently installed
    waterway that meets the requirements of Chapter 19.

    19.2 Aerial Ladder Requirements.
    19.2.1 The aerial ladder shall consist of two or more ladder
    sections that, together with the steps and platforms on the
    apparatus body, provide continuous egress for fire fighters
    and civilians from an elevated position to the ground.

    19.2.2 The rated vertical height of an aerial ladder shall be at
    least 50 ft (15 m) and shall be measured vertically with the
    ladder at maximum elevation and extension from the outermost
    rung of the outermost fly section to the ground.



    9.4 Water Tank. The apparatus shall be equipped with a water
    tank(s) that meets the requirements of Chapter 18 and that
    has a minimum certified capacity (combined, if applicable) of
    300 gal (1100 L).

    9.5* Equipment Storage. A minimum of 40 ft3 (1.1 m3) of
    enclosed weather-resistant compartmentation that meets the
    requirements of Section 15.1 shall be provided for the storage
    of equipment.

    9.6* Hose Storage. Hose bed area(s), compartments, or reels
    that comply with Section 15.10 shall be provided to accommodate
    the following:

    (1) A minimum hose storage area of 30 ft3 (0.8 m3) for 2 1/2 in.
    (65 mm) or larger fire hose

    (2) Two areas, each a minimum of 3.5 ft3 (0.1 m3), to accommodate
    1 1/2 in. (38 mm) or larger pre-connected fire hose lines


    9.7.1.1 The quint shall carry a minimum of 85 ft (26 m) of
    fire department ground ladders to include at least one extension
    ladder, one straight ladder equipped with roof hooks,
    and one folding ladder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    True enough the blame rests squarely on those who don't work to solve the issues and set themselves up for failure.
    If the implication here is the problem lies on the shoulders of the firefighters I adamantly disagree. The problem lies with city administrations that don't know our job, and don't care to listen or learn, then cut staffing to bare bones and fire chiefs that care more about keeping their jobs than doing the right thing, or even worse, are hired from the outside with no personal ties to the firefighters, purposely to cut staffing.

    My former Union worked with the Fire chief to keep 12 firefighters from being laid off. Sadly, things have changed and while no one has been laid off staffing has dropped through attrition and daily minimums keep dropping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hmmm....had a 50' Ladder with pre-piped waterway, 1500 pump, 450 water, ~45' ground ladders, 1000' of 5", 500' of 2 1/2", 2 x 200' 1 3/4" preconnects. Not a Quint? a "Junior" Quint?
    .... Squint?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If the implication here is the problem lies on the shoulders of the firefighters I adamantly disagree. The problem lies with city administrations that don't know our job, and don't care to listen or learn, then cut staffing to bare bones and fire chiefs that care more about keeping their jobs than doing the right thing, or even worse, are hired from the outside with no personal ties to the firefighters, purposely to cut staffing.

    My former Union worked with the Fire chief to keep 12 firefighters from being laid off. Sadly, things have changed and while no one has been laid off staffing has dropped through attrition and daily minimums keep dropping.
    Clearly the latter of the two. Hard to fault the guys who come to work and are forced to do more with less. My issue is that quints allow the current chief or the next "hatchet" chief to cut staffing while telling lay people no reduction in service is to be expected. The general public doesn't understand company tactics and despite our reputation as stellar educators, they don't know how many firefighters it takes to mount an offensive attack (or why they'd want one).

    To me, 95% (5% shmit luck) of the time a quint can only be one or the other, so you in essences have one less functional piece of apparatus, in a volunteer setting maybe that's all you can staff right now, in a career job, it's likely there will be a day that's all they will staff.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-30-2013 at 05:05 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words
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