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Thread: Ladder with pump or without?

  1. #61
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    That is one point I have been trying get thru don't sell yourselves short,buy for the future needs not today's needs. With budgets being so ever changing and call volumes changing departments need to be more open to alternative thinking about apparatus features. I see a lot of local departments buying based on trends instead of studying local fire call history and population growth and the current district roads and what possibly can be future coverage issues. What fits today's needs may lead to a shortage in the future. Giving the apparatus the extra option may not be need now but in the future could be a saving grace.


  2. #62
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    I am retired from a rural VFD member and we looked at things from a limited resource angle.
    So seriously, in the majority of cases in today's fire service who doesn't? My #1 POC FD has 2 engines, a tender and a brush truck, my #2 POC FD has 2 engines, 2 tenders, a heavy rescue, and 2 brush trucks. It is not like we have multiple stations and unlimited equipment and manpower.

    The truth is in some cases a combination rig like a tanker pumper, or a rescue engine, or perhaps a quint, may be a good idea. But trying to force a combination rig in with no other motivation than " we looked at things from a limited resource angle" may not get you what you really need to get the job done. Further, what works for you in yur little corner of the world may be 100% wrong for almost everywhere else. There is no one size fits all in the fire service.
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  3. #63
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    That is one point I have been trying get thru don't sell yourselves short,buy for the future needs not today's needs. With budgets being so ever changing and call volumes changing departments need to be more open to alternative thinking about apparatus features. I see a lot of local departments buying based on trends instead of studying local fire call history and population growth and the current district roads and what possibly can be future coverage issues. What fits today's needs may lead to a shortage in the future. Giving the apparatus the extra option may not be need now but in the future could be a saving grace.
    And if you try to do too much with one rig you could be buying a morphodite, oversized, piece of junk that will be an abaltross around the neck of firefighters for the next 2 decades. Planning, as you said is vitally important, but it needs to be based on REALISTIC expectations and not pipe dreams of what, possibly, may be the future.
    Skysthelimit likes this.
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  4. #64
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ....but it needs to be based on REALISTIC expectations and not pipe dreams of what, possibly, may be the future.
    So me speccing out an airport crash rescue monster cause someday a 737 flying overhead may crash in my town is a bad idea?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .... Squint?
    Taint. Taint Ladder, taint engine.

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    I have a part-time job designing fire apparatus. Fyredup got it right. I see so many small communities that don't have a clue what they need except it has to be big and expensive. The fact that it's not the right fit for the FD or the community plays no part in it. There is a substantial difference in what you need and what you want.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So me speccing out an airport crash rescue monster cause someday a 737 flying overhead may crash in my town is a bad idea?
    Hmmm....I would think if you put an aerial on top of it you could justify it...

    I always thought when I was a CFR FF that our heavy rig, 2000 gpm pump, 3300 gallons of water, 500 gallons of foam, 500 pound of dry chem, with a roof and bumper turret, as well as a 200 foot 1 3/4 inch front preconnect, would have made an awesome first in rig for rural fires. Especially barn fires and such. But then again it weighed 77,000 pounds and was huge. Probably a lot of country roads it would have destroyed just driving on them.
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  8. #68
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim54 View Post
    I have a part-time job designing fire apparatus. Fyredup got it right. I see so many small communities that don't have a clue what they need except it has to be big and expensive. The fact that it's not the right fit for the FD or the community plays no part in it. There is a substantial difference in what you need and what you want.
    When I decided I was going to attempt to sell fire trucks my greatest frustration was going somewhere that siad they wanted to buy an engine and walking in to find they had no wish list or something so minimal that it was no help at all. I figured it wasn't my job to talk you into anything, it was my job to listen and perhaps throw out an idea here or there. If I esign the truck and it isn't what you wanted or needed it is definitely my fault, if after talking to you you still buy something that isn't what you want or need then it is your fault.

    No, I don't sell fire trucks anymore. I found it really wasn't for me.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabutler515 View Post
    Thanks for all the input! Our coverage area is mostly rural with two villages This here is a good reason to have pumping option ____________> couple hotels. This here is a good reason to have pumping option ____________>We have an Industrail park. We run the state turnpike.
    My main issue with this is the main reason they say we need a ladder with a pump is "if the ladder is the first on scene we can't do any thing until the engine gets there"! My response is usually a head shake and "Wow"!!
    We have a good mutual aid response.
    That why I posted this is to see what other departments are doing and have done!
    There's a lot of good information and points that I am getting so thanks!
    Read the marked areas.

  10. #70
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    Read the marked areas.
    In and of themselves, the 2 things you highlighted are not justifications for a quint. It is dependent on number of apparatus, specifically engines, and staffing. If they have enough engines then buying a quint simply because it may, possibly, someday, maybe, if a conflagration occurs, have to supply itself makes no sense at all. If they are down on pumping capacity then perhaps it makes sense to buy a quint. I can't see any reason at all, and especially in a rural setting, to buy a ladder truck with a pump and no onboard water. Talk about a morphodite if you are buying it to be able to pump if it arrives first or alone at a fire.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    When I decided I was going to attempt to sell fire trucks my greatest frustration was going somewhere that siad they wanted to buy an engine and walking in to find they had no wish list or something so minimal that it was no help at all. I figured it wasn't my job to talk you into anything, it was my job to listen and perhaps throw out an idea here or there. If I esign the truck and it isn't what you wanted or needed it is definitely my fault, if after talking to you you still buy something that isn't what you want or need then it is your fault.

    No, I don't sell fire trucks anymore. I found it really wasn't for me.
    I would think this would be a troubling predicament for anyone who is passionate about the fire service. So many varying opinions, and situation that what works well in one dept may not in another for numerous factors.

    Some FD's have no clue what they want or need, just they can't run the old truck anymore and need to replace it. They often only look as far as their nearest mutual aid (that they think is worthy) and at the magazines on the dayroom table and shoot from the hip. I know of many Fd's that go into sales meeting knowing only the type of apparatus (ladder, engine, rescue, tanker) and the amount they have budgeted.

    Others go all out to ensure they're specs represent the mission of the apparatus and are typically more knowledgeable than many of the salesmen who come calling.

    We have one local salesman who we had great dealings with, who knew the products and the options and was a true help in the process, but then ended up being totally off putting to a a few other local FD's. It may have been that he misread the audience in at least one case and went in too strong. I can imagine a salesman must be very patient and laid back until he knows the politics of the room. This tends to be hard for firefighters who end up in sales, as we tend to be pretty forward leaning.

  12. #72
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    I sold used apparatus for a while, and a couple of times I refused to sell a vehicle to a department because it was way off base to their needs/area. P!ssed em off big time. A couple threatened to sue me.
    ?

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