Thread: SOP Stupidity

  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    107

    Default SOP Stupidity

    Every department obviously has to have a set of policies to work under, hey it just makes sense. But in today's day and age it seems that they are getting stupider and stupider, and as a result, longer and longer! Recently I was reviewing the SOPs of the EMS squad I joined up with, and I found multiple prime examples!

    For starters there is an entire page of SOPs regarding saluting. There is a very important sentence near the end that says salutes are not to be rendered when uncovered (no cap)... Ill bet you can guess what we don't have... that's right, covers!

    Additionally there is an entire SOP regarding what we may not carry. Instead of just saying that weapons are disallowed, it goes on to say: (paraphrasing) one may not carry guns cudgels, cap-stun, bazookas, flame-throwers, or swords. Oh and then it goes on to say that only EMS/Fire marketed knives are allowed... kind of 'wackerish' to only allow sharp objects that have an EMS logo on them....

    These are just a few highlights from my organisations, anyone else have any stupidly-funny SOPs they would care to share? Doesn't have to just be Fire/EMS, but any organisation.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,895

    Default

    Not a sop fan, but if they are not in place hard to discipline a person

    And unfortunately you have to spell out the absurd, to avoid loop holes

    Yes we have some like yours that everyone is in violation because of the wording
    But ours are reviewed on an ongoing basis to clean them up

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Miller337's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    933

    Default

    Look now laddie as we get old and tired we need to do things to amuse ourselves which doesn't require a great deal of physical effort. So we tend to look for ways to do this without leaving our desks whenever possible. You are part of a wonderful pool of ready victims to screw with lad, young, brash, easily excited, oh so smart after somehow getting though the academy. Let old men have a little fun before they die will you kid. You snot up again I'll write an SOP about arranging the silverware in the silverware drawer and send it out to ALL my old crustie friends who will send it to ALL their old crustie friends one of whom along the way will put it in the new updated SOPs you'll receive in your box. See how this works now laddie?

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,037

    Default

    The dumbest thing is having SOPs as opposed to SOGs.
    ?

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Miller337's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    The dumbest thing is having SOPs as opposed to SOGs.
    I don't entirely agree with you on this bro. If every incident we went to was exactly the same with the same personnel and equipment we could right SOGs for everything. But I kinda think it has been a lot of years for you, and you haven't made it to that second exactly the same incident with exactly the same people and equipment.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    I don't entirely agree with you on this bro. If every incident we went to was exactly the same with the same personnel and equipment we could right SOGs for everything. But I kinda think it has been a lot of years for you, and you haven't made it to that second exactly the same incident with exactly the same people and equipment.
    Im confused -- aren't SOPs( standard operating Procedure) -? Which I understood to be more rigid than SOGs (standard operating guidelines)- I was always under the impression that guidelines gave some leeway to the working men, and the higher ups an out if someone following a rigid procedure(which may prove flawed) gets someone hurt. Maybe old age has set in, and it was the other way around.
    ?

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    876

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Im confused -- aren't SOPs( standard operating Procedure) -? Which I understood to be more rigid than SOGs (standard operating guidelines)- I was always under the impression that guidelines gave some leeway to the working men, and the higher ups an out if someone following a rigid procedure(which may prove flawed) gets someone hurt. Maybe old age has set in, and it was the other way around.
    I would tend to agree although it may just be a matter of semantics. One department's SOP may be the equivalent of another department's SOG.

    Either way they shouldn't be so rigid as to get someone hurt. We have clear SOP's for everything but the IC can alter them at any time (as long as he has a good reason).

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,682

    Default

    According to our department attorney...the only legal difference between a SOP and a SOG is 1 letter.

    Either way...they are your defined operations and you better be able to defend why you didn't follow them.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    It's easy to make them flexible. We put a statement in the beginning of ours that says something like this:

    "These Standard Operating Guidelines are a guideline to begin operations but because the emergency scene is fluid and ever changing we recognize that variances and changes from these guidelines may be necessary for a positive outcome. The Incident Commander has the power to deviate from these SOGs if the circumstances call for it."

    Just more cover your *** BS that may or may not mean a damn thing in the end.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    SOP's, SOG's, are exactly that. They are guidelines which a department writes, so the members will have a clear view and idea how the COD wants the department ran or I should say, what he expects the member to abide with.

    Having said that, most SOP's and or SOG's are just guidelines. You can't live by that alone. Some are stretched and some are bent in some way.

    If one say's "No firearms im the fire house", it simply means that. Leave them at home or locked up in your car or POV.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Chenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rural WI
    Posts
    1,237

    Default

    As much as it pains me to say it, they have to be that detailed, and that dumbed down, because some people don't think, can't think, or simply have no common sense.

    The last time something got brought up at Dept 1 that several of us thought was common sense, but wasn't in the bylaws, it turned into a gigantic schitt show, because it wasn't in the bylaws/SOG's. So while I hate the fact that when I read SOG's, I feel like I'm being treated like a kindergartner, I completely understand why they are so dumbed down, and explain everything.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    107

    Default

    The way it is with my other department, SOPs are the rigid 'you may not do this' type of rules, whereas the SOGs are 'We understand that the fireground is dynamic, so you may do this, this, or this, at your discretion.

    The part about the 'way out' is sickening. It seems like way too many people are concerned with covering their arse than with what needs to be done.

    I see your point about how they have to spell it out. I am sure someone, somewhere came to work with a bazooka!

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Highschoolvolunteer View Post
    The way it is with my other department, SOPs are the rigid 'you may not do this' type of rules, whereas the SOGs are 'We understand that the fireground is dynamic, so you may do this, this, or this, at your discretion.

    The part about the 'way out' is sickening. It seems like way too many people are concerned with covering their arse than with what needs to be done.

    I see your point about how they have to spell it out. I am sure someone, somewhere came to work with a bazooka!
    Bazookas are so passe... I prefer an RPG... (and for those who cannot comprehend my post, it is sarcasm.... )
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    876

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bazookas are so passe... I prefer an RPG... (and for those who cannot comprehend my post, it is sarcasm.... )
    Too late! PC police are surrounding your house at this very moment.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Mcvfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2

    Default

    As my EMR instructor says "Theres no SOP for the poor idiot who fell out of a tree and hit every branch on the way down into a bonfire"

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,294

    Default

    There's another "layer" to SOP's and SOG's - "Best Practices." I've heard the term described as less restrictive that either an SOP or an SOG.

    In the end, though, it does come down to the action one takes being defensible if it doesn't square with whatever the document is called.

    It would seem to me that each actually has a place. SOP's for those things that need to be done just so, SOG's and/or best practices for things that usually go best when done as described but are subject to variables, as HSV mentions.

    As Fyred points out, including a disclaimer to those that may need to bent from time to time helps, too.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Stupidity is rampant
    By LVFD301 in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 09-28-2009, 11:18 AM
  2. Youthfull Stupidity (thanks tOasty)
    By Trident762 in forum Probie House: The Place for Newbies
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-08-2007, 10:46 AM
  3. Stupidity Personified!
    By mcaldwell in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-03-2006, 12:10 AM
  4. first-degree stupidity
    By captk12 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-03-2005, 11:08 AM
  5. Stupidity in action
    By nozzelvfd in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 05-13-2005, 06:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register