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Thread: Proposed Government Shut-Down and the National Fire Academy

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    Why should the federal government be involved? Fire protection is a local matter. Let the states handle it. I'd imagine every state already has standards, training, fire prevention initiatives etc. Just another layer of unnecessary government. Kind of like the federal department of education, which as far as I know has no teachers and runs no schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by that. Will you rephrase your statement/question so that my small brain can put it into context?
    The government is partially shutdown. Causing it to be smaller. Fewer functions operating, fewer employees, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It's also an example of exactly what the federal government should be funding.
    Says who? Where is it written the NFA should be funded? What difference does the NFA make to my everyday life?
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    Well the federal government wishes to be in charge of all of our health care. Now once this is fully implemented and the government shuts down again how will that work ?
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    You can't take your NFA classes, but your president gives the OK for illegal immigrants to march on the mall.

    Let that sink in for a minute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    You can't take your NFA classes, but your president gives the OK for illegal immigrants to march on the mall.

    Let that sink in for a minute.
    The bigger picture is that conservatives constantly demand that government be made smaller. Now that a shutdown is in place (making government smaller) they complain about it.

    Let that sink in for a minute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The government is partially shutdown. Causing it to be smaller. Fewer functions operating, fewer employees, etc.
    The government is not smaller - parts of it are just shut down. If it were being made smaller, Federal employees would be getting RIF'ed or terminated. Federal assets (facilities, equipment, property, and etc.) would be declared as surplus and sold. As it is right now, all "idled" employees are still going to be paid (with back-pay) whenever they start getting checks again. They'll go back to their Federal office and use their Federal stuff to do their Federal job (which was owned and maintained by the Federal government before, during, and after the shutdown).

    Do we need Federal employees? Absolutely. They fulfill important needs on a daily basis - just as state and local government does.

    Nothing has been reduced - the switch has been turned "off" so to speak. When Federal government decides to turn the switch "on" again, it'll still be there and ready use.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Says who? Where is it written the NFA should be funded? What difference does the NFA make to my everyday life?
    Have you ever applied to, been accepted, and attended a course at the National Fire Academy? If you have, did you not appreciate both the experience of your instructors as well as the networking with your new friends/classmates?

    That alone is priceless.

    With regards to the funding of the NFA, I'd encourage you to research the 1973 document present to Congress entitled "America Burning". In that document, the National Commission on Fire Prevention and Control (NCFPC) recommended the establishment of the United States Fire Administration (USFA) "to provide a national focus for the Nation's fire problem, and to promote a comprehensive program with adequate funding to reduce life and property loss from fire".

    The NFA was thus created to become the county's pre-eminent Federal fire training and education institution. It's purpose, as detailed in 1973 report, was to "function as the core of the Nation's efforts in fire service education - feeding out model programs, curricula, and information..."

    Considering that there are very few Federal facilities created solely for the purpose of training our emergency responders, I'd say that is Federal money well-spent.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-09-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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    Government is indeed smaller when one considers there are fewer people enforcing regulations. Something conservatives demand.

    As far as the benefits of the NFA. So what? Why should anyone not in the fire service care about its benefits?

    I'd be willing to bet I can find any number of programs you don't like with a similar justification for their funding from those who benefit from them.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-09-2013 at 03:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Government is indeed smaller when one considers there are fewer people enforcing regulations. Something conservatives demand.
    Again, government is not "smaller" during this shut down. Parts of it are merely turned "off". When the Federal government turns the switch back to "on", everything will cranks back up.

    Here is an anecdote that may put this into perspective for you: if you go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread, you spent money, correct? If you do not eat the bread, but instead put it in your pantry and never eat it, are you saving money? No. Why? Because you already spent the money in the first place. In fact, if you don't eat it, you are wasting it (and money).

    The same concept applies during the shut down. Fewer employees are at work but all of the furloughed people are still employed. When paychecks start getting printed again, the furloughed people who were at the house in their jammies the whole time will get backpay. In fact, they'll get paid as if they were at work the whole time. Meanwhile, the folks who were not furloughed get the same pay even though they worked the whole time.

    If the Federal government abolished an entire section of government - such as FEMA - and RIF'ed every employee and sold every one it FEMA's assets for cash, then THAT would be an example of smaller government.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As far as the benefits of the NFA. So what? Why should anyone not in the fire service care about its benefits?
    Ask that question out loud and see if you don't answer it yourself. The answer I immediately see is better-trained emergency response personnel. How can that not improve the readiness of a community?

    Flip this discussion around and ask the same question. Is someone is employed, earns a fair wage, is provided with benefits such as health insurance, owns a home, and pays their bills why would that person see the value in social programs (such as welfare, Section 8 housing, and etc.) that he or she is ineligible for?

    In the context of this discussion, the benefits (both tangible and intangible) of attending the NFA are available to all emergency responders regardless of their gender, race, political or religious beliefs, income level, sexual orientation, community demographics, and etc.

    A program that can impact so many people (both emergency responders and the communities they protect) is an invaluable asset. If you doubt that, look at the political make-up of the Congressional Fire Services Caucus (CFSC). If the Fire Service was not an important topic, why would so many politicians (all many political beliefs) be a part of CFSC?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'd be willing to bet I can find any number of programs you don't like with a similar justification for their funding from those who benefit from them.
    I am sure you could. Although I am usually not one to debate politics due to the futility of the discussion, I'll do so via PM. I'm actually kinda flattered that you picked me to share your political beliefs with. I will warn you though: I have commitments away from this board, such as a job and youngin's to raise. That being said, I'll respond to your PMs as time allows. I don't want you to sit on the edge of your seat awaiting my opinion.

    The original topic of this thread is the shutdown and it's effect on the NFA. For whatever reasons, you appear not to like the NFA. That is certainly your choice. I hope one day that you have the opportunity to experience it first-hand. You'll be glad you did.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-09-2013 at 04:49 PM.
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    [QUOTE=dfwfirefighter;1385990]
    Ask that question out loud and see if you don't answer it yourself. The answer I immediately see is better-trained emergency response personnel. How can that not improve the readiness of a community?

    Flip this discussion around and ask the same question. Is someone is employed, earns a fair wage, is provided with benefits such as health insurance, owns a home, and pays their bills why would that person see the value in social programs (such as welfare, Section 8 housing, and etc.) that he or she is ineligible for?

    In the context of this discussion, the benefits (both tangible and intangible) of attending the NFA are available to all emergency responders regardless of their gender, race, political or religious beliefs, income level, sexual orientation, community demographics, and etc.

    A program that can impact so many people (both emergency responders and the communities they protect) is an invaluable asset. If you doubt that, look at the political make-up of the Congressional Fire Services Caucus (CFSC). If the Fire Service was not an important topic, why would so many politicians (all many political beliefs) be a part of CFSC?



    I am sure you could. Although I am usually not one to debate politics due to the futility of the discussion, I'll do so via PM. I'm actually kinda flattered that you picked me to share your political beliefs with. I will warn you though: I have commitments away from this board, such as a job and youngin's to raise. That being said, I'll respond to your PMs as time allows. I don't want you to sit on the edge of your seat awaiting my opinion.

    The original topic of this thread is the shutdown and it's effect on the NFA. For whatever reasons, you appear not to like the NFA. That is certainly your choice. I hope one day that you have the opportunity to experience it first-hand. You'll be glad you did.


    As somebody who has attended the NFA several times, has attended at least 12 NFA regional programs and who is currently employed as an NFA Contract instructor, I echo DFW's thoughts. of course, I may be biased, but I have felt this way about the NFA and the training and educational opportunities it provides long before I started working for them as an instructor.

    The NFA through both the regional and on-campus programs, is an invaluable resource that provides a training opportunity and environment that cannot be duplicated on the state level.

    It certainly deserves all the funding it receives, and possibly a little bit more.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Again, government is not "smaller" during this shut down. Parts of it are merely turned "off". When the Federal government turns the switch back to "on", everything will cranks back up.
    In the context of government interference to the individual, it is smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    The same concept applies during the shut down. Fewer employees are at work but all of the furloughed people are still employed. When paychecks start getting printed again, the furloughed people who were at the house in their jammies the whole time will get backpay. In fact, they'll get paid as if they were at work the whole time. Meanwhile, the folks who were not furloughed get the same pay even though they worked the whole time.
    See first response.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    If the Federal government abolished an entire section of government - such as FEMA - and RIF'ed every employee and sold every one it FEMA's assets for cash, then THAT would be an example of smaller government.
    See first response.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Ask that question out loud and see if you don't answer it yourself. The answer I immediately see is better-trained emergency response personnel. How can that not improve the readiness of a community?
    Prove to me that communities are safer because of the work done by the NFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Flip this discussion around and ask the same question. Is someone is employed, earns a fair wage, is provided with benefits such as health insurance, owns a home, and pays their bills why would that person see the value in social programs (such as welfare, Section 8 housing, and etc.) that he or she is ineligible for?
    The topic is the NFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    In the context of this discussion, the benefits (both tangible and intangible) of attending the NFA are available to all emergency responders regardless of their gender, race, political or religious beliefs, income level, sexual orientation, community demographics, and etc.
    Where is your quantifiable evidence of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    A program that can impact so many people (both emergency responders and the communities they protect) is an invaluable asset. If you doubt that, look at the political make-up of the Congressional Fire Services Caucus (CFSC). If the Fire Service was not an important topic, why would so many politicians (all many political beliefs) be a part of CFSC?
    Dunno why so many are members. What does that matter? I could ask that about any caucus group.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I am sure you could. Although I am usually not one to debate politics due to the futility of the discussion, I'll do so via PM. I'm actually kinda flattered that you picked me to share your political beliefs with. I will warn you though: I have commitments away from this board, such as a job and youngin's to raise. That being said, I'll respond to your PMs as time allows. I don't want you to sit on the edge of your seat awaiting my opinion.
    You're missing the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    The original topic of this thread is the shutdown and it's effect on the NFA. For whatever reasons, you appear not to like the NFA. That is certainly your choice. I hope one day that you have the opportunity to experience it first-hand. You'll be glad you did.
    I could care less about the NFA. The point is that conservatives are always talking about smaller government and that government should only provide essential services. The shutdown of the NFA only shows that it is not essential. There hasn't been an outbreak of conflagrations endangering the populace since the shutdown. I would submit it could go away tomorrow and no one outside of the fire service would notice. Except maybe those who gain financially from its existence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As somebody who has attended the NFA several times, has attended at least 12 NFA regional programs and who is currently employed as an NFA Contract instructor, I echo DFW's thoughts. of course, I may be biased, but I have felt this way about the NFA and the training and educational opportunities it provides long before I started working for them as an instructor.

    The NFA through both the regional and on-campus programs, is an invaluable resource that provides a training opportunity and environment that cannot be duplicated on the state level.

    It certainly deserves all the funding it receives, and possibly a little bit more.
    You help make my point. You benefit financially. So of course you believe it is a good program. I'm certain the same can be said for many programs you don't like.
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    I've never attended an NFA course on campus or off. I did go to the website and look at the course listings. It is VERY similar to the courses that New York's state office of fire prevention and control offers. I suspect this would be true of many of the other states. So why do we need a federal version? We have a federal fire administration to put a national focus on firefighting. Why? The fire service is very local in nature. It just duplicates effort and wastes money. Why do I need the NFA to offer a course that I can get in my home state? I should mention that in New York State neither the state nor the federal government provides fire services (prevention or suppression). Again, I'm sure this is true in most if not all states.
    I'm not saying there is no value whatsoever to these federal agencies or the courses/services provided. But do we really NEED them? Especially now when we simply cannot afford it. Are you all willing to borrow the money from China to keep this stuff up and running? If it all stopped tomorrow would you still provide emergency medical care? Extinguish fires? Mitigate utility emergencies? Provide technical rescue and extrication? Enforce LOCAL codes? Teach fire prevention LOCALLY? I think I know the answers.
    The most effective teachers in the fire service are the ones who learned by doing. Would it kill us to go back to that? At least until we're on better financial footing?
    The fire service is not the only offender. Not by a long shot. Nor are we the worst. The approach to government bureaucracy needs to change across the board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post

    It is amazing how "difficult" the Feds are when it comes to handling their business. I don't think Dr. Onieal and his staff had any say so in the abrupt manner the campus was closed due to the lapse in funding but "how" it locked its doors disappoints me nonetheless.
    A government shutdown is not business as usual, so there isn't a whole lot of experience with it at the ground level. The rules seem to change on an almost daily basis as the agency lawyers interpret, and reinterpret the laws of the shut down as the apply to the individual agency.

    Who is exempt (show up for work and get paid because you are funded by non appropriated funds), excepted (show up for work or get fired, but you don't get paid until this mess gets fixed) and non excepted (stay home and maybe get paid, or maybe not at the whim of congress) also changes as the shut down progresses and it is found your job is essential after all, or maybe they decide they can get by without you for a bit.

    Quite a mess for people just trying to do their job, unlike the nitwits in DC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    In the context of government interference to the individual, it is smaller.
    It is not smaller unless everything that was shut-down was surplused and sold and everyone who was furloughed was RIF'ed. That is reducing the size of government.

    Owning 10 shirts and only wearing two (2) of them is not reducing the amount of clothes you wear - it is underutilizing 80% of what you already own.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The topic is the NFA.
    Read the next paragraph of the original post and you'll see that I indeed put my example in the context of the NFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Where is your quantifiable evidence of this?
    I think you meant "qualify" - not "quantify". "Quantifying" something involves units of measurement (i.e. mathematics). I will, however, be happy to "qualify" it for you. On the application to attend a NFA or EMI course (both of which are housed at the NETC in Emmitsburg, Maryland), the Equal Opportunity Statement is listed on the second page and states the following:

    "NFA and EMI are Equal Opportunity institutions. They do not discriminate on the basis of age, gender, race, color, religious belief, national origin, or disability in their admissions and student-related procedures. Both schools make every effort to ensure equitable representation of minorities and women in their student bodies. Qualified minority and women candidates are encouraged to apply for all courses."

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You're missing the point.
    Apparently I am. Please elaborate and explain your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I could care less about the NFA. The point is that conservatives are always talking about smaller government and that government should only provide essential services. The shutdown of the NFA only shows that it is not essential. There hasn't been an outbreak of conflagrations endangering the populace since the shutdown. I would submit it could go away tomorrow and no one outside of the fire service would notice. Except maybe those who gain financially from its existence.
    Training emergency responders is, as you say, an essential service. You assert that the shutdown of the NFA "only shows that it is not essential". I counter that with a request for you to qualify your statement. Could it be that the training and networking opportunities the NFA has provided since it's inception in the 1970's has paid untold dividends (both tangible and intangible) to both our nation's communities and the responders that protect them?

    Regarding the "NFA going away tomorrow and no one outside of the fire service would notice", I counter that assertion with the following:

    1) The NFA is co-located with FEMA's EMI at the NETC. This means that the NETC trains emergency responders from many backgrounds, such as local, state, and Federal government as well as responders from both the private industry as well as foreign countries. By co-locating these institutions at the same location, it reduces the need to duplicate efforts such as housing, feeding, and training personnel. That is an example of responsible and responsive government.

    2) Many of the "industry standards" of emergency response are created, modified, and implemented through the NFA. Why? Where else can you benefit from such as diverse group of people from all aspects of emergency response? This includes both the faculty and the students. An example is the National Incident Management System (NIMS). Many people from varied backgrounds were able to provide input to the creation and implementation of NIMS. Better yet, as issues are identified with it, these groups can recommend changes for implementation.

    I am not sure where you are going with your last statement regarding people benefiting financially from the NFA. Folks do, in fact, benefit from the NFA's existence.

    Once example I can think of is the cafeteria. One of the logistical issues of operating the NETC is feeding three (3) meals per day to each student. To accomplish this task, the Federal government outsources this task to a vendor. Does the vendor benefit financially from it? Absolutely. If not, why else would the vendor do it?

    Another example is the instructors. While the NFA does have a core group of full-time personnel, the bulk of the instructional staff are "contractors" of the Federal government. They submit a bid to instruct a particular course that they are qualified to teach. As in most cases with the government, the lowest qualified bidder "wins" and is paid to teach the course at the NFA. Using "contract" instructors creates a diverse pool of personnel to teach courses while saving the expense of employing numerous full-time people.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-10-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I've never attended an NFA course on campus or off. I did go to the website and look at the course listings. It is VERY similar to the courses that New York's state office of fire prevention and control offers. I suspect this would be true of many of the other states.

    I just checked the Office of Fire prevention and Control's website, and while they have a dew classes that mirror those at the NFA, there are not very many and just about all of them are in the area of arson and inspection. There are no NFA caliber classes for prevention and education, command and control and EMS management.

    I know that is also the case in Vermont, as I was a involved in training there, and it's not the case in any state in the immediate area of LA.

    The classes at NFA are unique, and serve a role for those interested in planning, management, and to a limited extent theory.


    So why do we need a federal version?

    Again, most of what the NFA offers is not available at the state level. In addition, as DFW has already pointed out, the interaction of members from across the country is priceless, and cannot be duplicated at the state level.

    We have a federal fire administration to put a national focus on firefighting. Why? The fire service is very local in nature. It just duplicates effort and wastes money.

    But local fire leaders need a place to go for education regarding the management and administration of a fire department, and that is what the NFA offers.

    Why do I need the NFA to offer a course that I can get in my home state?

    Again, I doubt you could get what the NFA offers in most states.

    I should mention that in New York State neither the state nor the federal government provides fire services (prevention or suppression). Again, I'm sure this is true in most if not all states.

    I'm sure state forestry provides suppression in most states. It's also the case here. And if you look at CalFire, they not only provide wildland protection but also provide structural response.

    In LA, the State Fire Marshal's Office provides rescue response to statewide disasters. They also have a statewide smoke detector distribution program and provide juvenile firesetting intervention training.


    I'm not saying there is no value whatsoever to these federal agencies or the courses/services provided. But do we really NEED them? Especially now when we simply cannot afford it. Are you all willing to borrow the money from China to keep this stuff up and running? If it all stopped tomorrow would you still provide emergency medical care? Extinguish fires? Mitigate utility emergencies? Provide technical rescue and extrication? Enforce LOCAL codes? Teach fire prevention LOCALLY? I think I know the answers.

    With all due respect, one of the biggest problems in some quarters of the fire service is the belif that we do not need education, just training. Training, which is provided at the local and state level putgs out fires and responds to rescues and EMS calls.

    Education provides the leaders with the knowledge to administer and manage public education, EMS and department operations including the "business" side of the department, and that is what the NFA provides.

    The fact is that our leaders need to be educated beyond the street and beyond the state level if we are to be successful in the new world we face.


    The most effective teachers in the fire service are the ones who learned by doing. Would it kill us to go back to that?

    Disagree.

    The most effective managers and administrators, which is what the NFA produces, come from a combination of time on the street and time in an educational environment where they learn how to effectively manage department divisions and operations.


    At least until we're on better financial footing?
    The fire service is not the only offender. Not by a long shot. Nor are we the worst. The approach to government bureaucracy needs to change across the board.
    Again, we disagree on the value of the NFA.

    To me, it's critical to the fire service.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    I guess we'll just have to disagree. Couple of points:
    You say the interaction between firefighters from different states is priceless. I disagree. It has a very real price attached. Members may enjoy the interaction. They may learn from the interaction. But it is NOT critical to the fire service that they do this.
    Departments all over the country have been able to manage and administer themselves for hundreds of years in some cases. I disagree that they'd be unable to do it w/o a federal academy or fire administration.
    I have to repeat my point about learning by doing. There are way too many people running around teaching each other and not enough actually doing anything. I get tired of hearing from the so called experts. Some of them shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a classroom, not even as a student.

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    When the fire service starts to agree on National standards of fire service...I'll consider the NFA something that matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    It is not smaller unless everything that was shut-down was surplused and sold and everyone who was furloughed was RIF'ed. That is reducing the size of government.

    Owning 10 shirts and only wearing two (2) of them is not reducing the amount of clothes you wear - it is underutilizing 80% of what you already own.
    In your opinion. Fewer people making rules and enforcing them is making government smaller in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I think you meant "qualify" - not "quantify". "Quantifying" something involves units of measurement (i.e. mathematics). I will, however, be happy to "qualify" it for you. On the application to attend a NFA or EMI course (both of which are housed at the NETC in Emmitsburg, Maryland), the Equal Opportunity Statement is listed on the second page and states the following:

    "NFA and EMI are Equal Opportunity institutions. They do not discriminate on the basis of age, gender, race, color, religious belief, national origin, or disability in their admissions and student-related procedures. Both schools make every effort to ensure equitable representation of minorities and women in their student bodies. Qualified minority and women candidates are encouraged to apply for all courses."
    No. I meant quantify.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Apparently I am. Please elaborate and explain your point.
    The NFA is not an essential service.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Training emergency responders is, as you say, an essential service. You assert that the shutdown of the NFA "only shows that it is not essential". I counter that with a request for you to qualify your statement. Could it be that the training and networking opportunities the NFA has provided since it's inception in the 1970's has paid untold dividends (both tangible and intangible) to both our nation's communities and the responders that protect them?
    Only if you believe that training wouldn't occur if the NFA didn't exist. Which isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Regarding the "NFA going away tomorrow and no one outside of the fire service would notice", I counter that assertion with the following:

    1) The NFA is co-located with FEMA's EMI at the NETC. This means that the NETC trains emergency responders from many backgrounds, such as local, state, and Federal government as well as responders from both the private industry as well as foreign countries. By co-locating these institutions at the same location, it reduces the need to duplicate efforts such as housing, feeding, and training personnel. That is an example of responsible and responsive government.

    2) Many of the "industry standards" of emergency response are created, modified, and implemented through the NFA. Why? Where else can you benefit from such as diverse group of people from all aspects of emergency response? This includes both the faculty and the students. An example is the National Incident Management System (NIMS). Many people from varied backgrounds were able to provide input to the creation and implementation of NIMS. Better yet, as issues are identified with it, these groups can recommend changes for implementation.
    So what? Did the fire service manage to do those things before the creation of the NFA?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I am not sure where you are going with your last statement regarding people benefiting financially from the NFA. Folks do, in fact, benefit from the NFA's existence.
    Folks like LAFE who get paid to teach.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Once example I can think of is the cafeteria. One of the logistical issues of operating the NETC is feeding three (3) meals per day to each student. To accomplish this task, the Federal government outsources this task to a vendor. Does the vendor benefit financially from it? Absolutely. If not, why else would the vendor do it?
    There you go. A collateral benefactor.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Another example is the instructors. While the NFA does have a core group of full-time personnel, the bulk of the instructional staff are "contractors" of the Federal government. They submit a bid to instruct a particular course that they are qualified to teach. As in most cases with the government, the lowest qualified bidder "wins" and is paid to teach the course at the NFA. Using "contract" instructors creates a diverse pool of personnel to teach courses while saving the expense of employing numerous full-time people.
    More proof of my point.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    You know all the same arguments against NFA apply to State training as well. I mean why not leave training to individual departments, those that can will, those that can't won't.

    If the FDNY can provide adequate training for 15,000 career firefighters, then Podunk should be able to manage to train their 6.73 volunteers too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    In your opinion. Fewer people making rules and enforcing them is making government smaller in my opinion.
    Not using all of the stuff you "own", i.e. facilities, equipment, employees, and etc., is underutilizing your resources. You will save some operating expenses but you still own the capital assets. It is not making government smaller.

    If 10 people were employed by the Federal government and five (5) were furloughed due to the "shutdown", all you've accomplished is using less to do more. In this example you are wasting 50% of your assets and increasing the workload of the remaining assets by 50%. You've accomplished nothing except underutilizing the stuff you already own.

    In the case of the FEMA, if the Federal government permanently shut them down, sold all of their stuff and RIF'ed all of the employees, THAT would be making making government smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No. I meant quantify.
    How do you "quantify" the Equal Opportunity Statement on the NFA/EMI admissions application. One can easily "qualify" it as I did, but to "quantify"?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The NFA is not an essential service.
    It is NOT an essential service. Neither are most of the social programs that the taxpayers (i.e. have a job, earn a wage, and pay taxes) are usually not eligible for.

    The NFA is, however, a very useful service. It facilitates training to emergency responders of all disciplines at a very inexpensive price.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Only if you believe that training wouldn't occur if the NFA didn't exist. Which isn't the case.
    Training does occur locally, at the state level, and at the Federal level. The NFA is an example of training provided at the Federal level that augments what occurs locally.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So what? Did the fire service manage to do those things before the creation of the NFA?
    It did and it continues to do so. The NFA not only provides management training to emergency responders, but it also facilitates the creation, modification, and implementation of many of the industry standards we've come to practice on a day-to-day basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Folks like LAFE who get paid to teach.
    Yes. Those who are employed by the NFA as either full-time personnel or contractors are paid for their services - be it administrative, instruction, facility management, and/or etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There you go. A collateral benefactor.
    Again, those who provide a service are compensated for it. If a food service vendor bids for operating the cafeteria for a fiscal year and is awarded the contract, they become a contractor (hence the name) and are paid for providing their service. The same principle applies to those who bid to teach a class and are awarded the bid.

    The same principle applies to you and your job. Your employer hired you to perform a job. By virtue of accepting the job, you agreed to the terms and conditions of that employment. Your boss pays you X to perform Y. Your boss benefits from you doing the job he hired you to do. You benefit from your boss paying you the wage you agreed to when you accepted the offer of employment.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    More proof of my point.
    ...and that is?
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-10-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Not using all of the stuff you "own", i.e. facilities, equipment, employees, and etc., is underutilizing your resources. You will save some operating expenses but you still own the capital assets. It is not making government smaller.

    If 10 people were employed by the Federal government and five (5) were furloughed due to the "shutdown", all you've accomplished is using less to do more. In this example you are wasting 50% of your assets and increasing the workload of the remaining assets by 50%. You've accomplished nothing except underutilizing the stuff you already own.

    In the case of the FEMA, if the Federal government permanently shut them down, sold all of their stuff and RIF'ed all of the employees, THAT would be making making government smaller.
    I already addressed this issue in the context of how conservatives want smaller government.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    How do you "quantify" the Equal Opportunity Statement on the NFA/EMI admissions application. One can easily "qualify" it as I did, but to "quantify"?
    If it can't be done empirically, then its value is suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    It is NOT an essential service. Neither are most of the social programs that the taxpayers (i.e. have a job, earn a wage, and pay taxes) are usually not eligible for.
    There you said it. We're not discussing social programs. We're discussing the NFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    The NFA is, however, a very useful service. It facilitates training to emergency responders of all disciplines at a very inexpensive price.
    It may very well be useful, and be inexpensive. But it isn't free. It costs tax dollars. That is the point of reducing spending and making government smaller. You already stated the NFA is not essential.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    It did and it continues to do so. The NFA not only provides management training to emergency responders, but it also facilitates the creation, modification, and implementation of many of the industry standards we've come to practice on a day-to-day basis.
    Which could easily be done without the NFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Yes. Those who are employed by the NFA as either full-time personnel or contractors are paid for their services - be it administrative, instruction, facility management, and/or etc.
    Agreed. All costing tax dollars for a service you admitted was not essential.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Again, those who provide a service are compensated for it. If a food service vendor bids for operating the cafeteria for a fiscal year and is awarded the contract, they become a contractor (hence the name) and are paid for providing their service. The same principle applies to those who bid to teach a class and are awarded the bid.
    See above response.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    The same principle applies to you and your job. Your employer hired you to perform a job. By virtue of accepting the job, you agreed to the terms and conditions of that employment. Your boss pays you X to perform Y. Your boss benefits from you doing the job he hired you to do. You benefit from your boss paying you the wage you agreed to when you accepted the offer of employment.
    See above response.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I already addressed this issue in the context of how conservatives want smaller government.
    Please rephrase your response. I do not understand your context.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If it can't be done empirically, then its value is suspect.
    Please elaborate on this.

    I do not understand your response in the context of proving, quantifiably, my response in regards to the NFA/EMI Admission Application's Equal Opportunity Statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There you said it.
    Said what? That the NFA is not "essential". There are very few things that are considered "essential".

    A side-note is that is the term "essential" is relative. It depends on your perspective.

    For example, "essential" to me means something is needed for existence. One example is "air". We must have air to breathe? Why? Because it is essential. We will die without it.

    My paycheck is essential because I cannot pay my bills and provide for my family without it.

    In the context of government, what really is essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We're not discussing social programs. We're discussing the NFA.
    We are discussing the NFA (of which you said it was unnecessary). I pointed out that there are many other problems - often with exponentially larger budgets - that provide far less of an impact that the NFA does. In fact, if you look at many of the social programs the Federal government provides, the NFA's operating budget is minuscule, i.e. fractions of a penny, compared to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It may very well be useful, and be inexpensive. But it isn't free. It costs tax dollars. That is the point of reducing spending and making government smaller. You already stated the NFA is not essential.
    What do you propose the government get rid of (not underutilize by shutting downing temporarily - I mean get rid of) to truly make government smaller? By the way, "getting rid of" means to divest, sell, stop using, and etc. all assets, people, and processes to accomplish a task, or, in the context of the government, the goals and objectives a program. Truly reducing the size of government means getting rid of the entire infrastructure to support an entire program or part of the government - not just parking a car you already own in the garage and not using it.

    What is your proposal to make the size of government smaller? In the context of one of my earlier examples, this would mean getting rid of eight (8) of the 10 shirts in your closet (which would leave you with two (2). That is truly reduced - not underutilized).

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which could easily be done without the NFA.
    How do you propose this be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Agreed. All costing tax dollars for a service you admitted was not essential.
    Slow down Dick Tracy. We are not unraveling clues to the JFK conspiracy. We are discussing the impact of the government "shut down" on the NFA.

    Are you proposing that those who work for the someone, i.e. the government, private industry, and etc., should not be paid for their services?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    More proof of my point.
    Please elaborate on this. I've asked this several times but you appear to be unwilling and/or unable to do so.

    To assist you in your response, my request was for you to tell me what, exactly, your point is. Also, what is this "proof" and what does it allege?
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-10-2013 at 11:47 PM.
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    DFW, this is the bottom line.

    You've written extensively why the NFA is a worthwhile program that should be funded. Every government program has the same type of individuals such as yourself justifying its existence.

    The question is not whether or not they should be in existence, but how to pay for them.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    ...so why not elaborate on your positions with a response other than "see above", "proves my point", or some other 4-5 word response thats asks more questions than it answers?

    I suspect that you do not have any basis for much of your assertions. Feel free to prove me wrong.

    The original post of this thread discussed the NFA and the effects the "shutdown" may have on it. I asserted that I hope it is not permanently cut. From that point, you have attempted to turn this into a political debate. I would not even really call this a debate as you don't debate or discuss much of anything other than to "respond" by providing a 3-5 word reply.

    You opened the door; I walked through it.

    If you'd prefer to discuss this via PM instead of publicly in this thread, that is fine with me.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-11-2013 at 09:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Every government program has the same type of individuals such as yourself justifying its existence.
    ...and what type of individual is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The question is not whether or not they should be in existence, but how to pay for them.
    Based on the following replies you've posted, I don't think that is the question at all:

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Where is it written the NFA should be funded? What difference does the NFA make to my everyday life?
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The shutdown of the NFA only shows that it is not essential.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I would submit it could go away tomorrow and no one outside of the fire service would notice. Except maybe those who gain financially from its existence.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As far as the benefits of the NFA. So what? Why should anyone not in the fire service care about its benefits?
    DFW



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