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Thread: Proposed Government Shut-Down and the National Fire Academy

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If it can't be done empirically, then its value is suspect.
    DFW -

    Since, as usual, scfire refuses to answer any questions directly asked of him (or provide more than callous, one-sentence responses for rebuttal), I'll explain what he means by "quantifying."

    Unless you can prove to him with specific data sets that the number of fires or injuries is lower in communities where their FD members have attended the NFA, than you have no way of proving to him that the NFA has any benefit at the local level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I guess we'll just have to disagree. Couple of points:
    You say the interaction between firefighters from different states is priceless. I disagree. It has a very real price attached. Members may enjoy the interaction. They may learn from the interaction. But it is NOT critical to the fire service that they do this.

    I know that personally, I have utilized information or programs acquired from members who I have attended classes with at the NFA. maybe that is the exception, but I doubt it.

    Is that critical? I guess that could be up for debate but I certainly think that at a minimum, that is a significant benefit from the NFA and is something that does have value.


    Departments all over the country have been able to manage and administer themselves for hundreds of years in some cases.

    That's true, but having a place where you can go to learn how to administer a department more effectively does have benefit.


    I disagree that they'd be unable to do it w/o a federal academy or fire administration.

    Never said that they couldn't, but following your argument the same thing can be said about state fire training agencies as well.

    Do you believe that they should not be funded as well?


    I have to repeat my point about learning by doing.

    So should teachers just "sorta learn by doing" in the classroom without education? How about tossing our firefighters and EMT's into the job without an educational process?

    I doubt that you would be in favor of that.

    So why should we expect fire department administrators to learn by doing without a facility to provide formal education regarding their job functions of planning, management and administration?


    There are way too many people running around teaching each other and not enough actually doing anything. I get tired of hearing from the so called experts. Some of them shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a classroom, not even as a student.
    That has very little to do with the NFA.

    The NFA was designed to develop and administer advanced level training to IC's, administrators and management in the areas of planning and administration.

    There quite honestly, is very little in the way of that type of training at the state level in most states.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    DFW, this is the bottom line.

    You've written extensively why the NFA is a worthwhile program that should be funded. Every government program has the same type of individuals such as yourself justifying its existence.

    The question is not whether or not they should be in existence, but how to pay for them.
    Honetly, there are very few government agencies that are essential.

    DOD, CIA, FBI, NSAA, FAA and to a limited extent the FDA are few that come to mind.

    Department of Education, EPA and most social programs including welfare, WIC, Food Stamps, unemployment insurance, Section 8 housing .... Not so much.

    In fact one could argue that social programs are not an essential government service at any level.

    The government is really only tasked with defense and safety, and one could argue that the NFA certainly falls into providing safety for the citizens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Unless you can prove to him with specific data sets that the number of fires or injuries is lower in communities where their FD members have attended the NFA, than you have no way of proving to him that the NFA has any benefit at the local level.
    I think he confused himself in the course of his own "argument".

    The "discussion" referenced the fact that anyone can apply to the NFA regardless of race, gender, political values, and etc. He told me to "quantify" that. I replied that I could "qualify" it and provided the NFA Equal Opportunity Statement. He countered that he indeed meant "quantify" and I asked him to elaborate on how, mathematically (or otherwise using a unit of measurement), one could qualify an EO statement. To that, I receive the following reply:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RKUfTb88Rs
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    ...and what type of individual is that?
    Individuals who justify their program funding from the federal government. There thousands of programs the feds fund for any number of issues. I have no doubt each of them has individuals saying why they're needed and cost very little.

    The NFA is just one drop in the ocean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Department of Education, EPA and most social programs including welfare, WIC, Food Stamps, unemployment insurance, Section 8 housing .... Not so much.
    The folks who utilized those programs to get back on their feet would disagree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In fact one could argue that social programs are not an essential government service at any level.
    I could argue that isn't the case. Especially for the children born to idiot parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The government is really only tasked with defense and safety, and one could argue that the NFA certainly falls into providing safety for the citizens.
    Not true. It's tasked with numerous other things besides those two. I can make the nexis to safety for many programs not on your list.

    The part that I like is the approval ratings for the House GOP's has plummetted through the floor.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-11-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Individuals who justify their program funding from the federal government. There thousands of programs the feds fund for any number of issues. I have no doubt each of them has individuals saying why they're needed and cost very little.
    The NFA is not "my" program - it is the tax payers' program. It is used to educate our first responders of all disciplines. Furthermore I do not work for the NFA (nor any other branch of the Federal government). I've attended, as a student, several NFA course both at the NETC and off-campus.

    So, my question still stands in the context of me:

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    ...and what type of individual is that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    The NFA is not "my" program - it is the tax payers' program. It is used to educate our first responders of all disciplines. Furthermore I do not work for the NFA (nor any other branch of the Federal government). I've attended, as a student, several NFA course both at the NETC and off-campus.
    I never said it was your program. Your missing the point. I'm sure other programs have individuals like you who believe those programs are beneficial and should be funded by the taxpayers. That scenario is replicated thousands of times in any number of government departments.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    So, my question still stands in the context of me:
    I've answered. You just don't understand it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The folks who utilized those programs to get back on their feet would disagree with you.

    One could easily argue that it's simply not the responsibility of government to help get folks back on their feet or take care of their every need.

    That is the responsibility of the citizen, not the government.

    I would have no issues with reducing social spending by 50% ..... or more.



    I could argue that isn't the case. Especially for the children born to idiot parents.

    Again as a taxpayer ..... Not my problem.

    Would I support far more scaled back programs for children where the parents have no way to abscond with the $$$$$ to spend on booze, drugs and other vices ? Maybe.

    Would I be less opposed to food stamps if they couldn't buy prepared food, chips, candy and soda, or they had to show picture ID with every single purchase so they couldn't sell the card for cash ---- drugs, booze and other crap? Yup.

    The fact is it's not our responsibility but thanks to LBJ, it's become that way, and there is a significant portion of the population that is riding the wave and have no desire or no need to stand up and take friggin responsibility for their own damn lives.



    Not true. It's tasked with numerous other things besides those two. I can make the nexis to safety for many programs not on your list.

    As a liberal, I'm sure you can.

    The part that I like is the approval ratings for the House GOP's has plummetted through the floor.
    Just like Obumba's 37%?
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    Default NFA Really?

    Interestingly, if it wasn't for all the major programs being suspended, the politicians would have no reason to ever work this out. While it stinks to be effected by this (for some far more than others!) if there was no outrage, this would just be more partisan politics. Without cutting the funding to soldiers death benefits or a few other programs that set us ablaze, we'd ignore this too. Tack on another 4 years of the liberals "Robinhooding" the money away from the middle class as the Republicans have crashed the bus with their "all or nothing" push. Of course the Dems are not playing nice either but they're not getting much media attention for refusing to accept cuts or slow the ACA before it breaks us even further.

    And while I've enjoyed the NFA, I wouldn't for a second place this even on the list of "essential services" for the shut-down or forever. If you think having to miss your NFA class is a big deal try walking in a soldiers boots for a few days. The fact that this is even a topic here while soldiers families aren't being flown in to receive their bodies is a disgrace.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 10-11-2013 at 02:08 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Interestingly, if it wasn't for all the major programs being suspended, the politicians would have no reason to ever work this out. While it stinks to be effected by this (for some far more than others!) if there was no outrage, this would just be more partisan politics. Without cutting the funding to soldiers death benefits or a few other programs that set us ablaze, we'd ignore this too. Tack on another 4 years of the liberals "Robinhooding" the money away from the middle class as the Republicans have crashed the bus with their "all or nothing" push. Of course the Dems are not playing nice either but they're not getting much media attention for refusing to accept cuts or slow the ACA before it breaks us even further.

    And while I've enjoyed the NFA, I wouldn't for a second place this even on the list of "essential services" for the shut-down or forever. If you think having to miss your NFA class is a big deal try walking in a soldiers boots for a few days. The fact that this is even a topic here while soldiers families aren't being flown in to receive their bodies is a disgrace.
    Is the funding for the NFA even close to the importance of the funding for the military, including paying the death benefits and taking care of the families? Hell no. In fact, it's not even close.

    And I never stated that it was.

    Nor is it close to the importance of the FBI, CIA, NSA, FAA, TSA, Food & Drug and other similar security or critical regulatory agencies.

    But I do consider the NFA important to the fire service. It's our national Academy that offers education (not training .. And there is a major difference) that you cannot get at the local or state level, and offers networking opportunities that are not available anywhere else.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-11-2013 at 05:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I never said it was your program.
    Then what did you mean by this?:

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Every government program has the same type of individuals such as yourself justifying its existence.
    So who are these "same type of individuals"?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You just don't understand it.
    Apparently I don't. Please elaborate and explain "it".
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-11-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just like Obumba's 37%?
    So what? Is the President up for election next year?

    You're not to savvy on politics, are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But I do consider the NFA important to the fire service. It's our national Academy that offers education (not training .. And there is a major difference) that you cannot get at the local or state level, and offers networking opportunities that are not available anywhere else.
    I don't consider it important. So why should I have to pay for it? You want to network, do it at your own expense.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-11-2013 at 08:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Then what did you mean by this?:
    Can't help you. It's apparent you lack the ability to understand the point of what a shutdown means.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Apparently I don't. Please elaborate and explain "it".
    Sorry. Not worth the effort.
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    dfwfirefighter,

    You are wasting your time trying to get a clear, rational, sensible, response from scfire. He will just dance around and around and around and never answer your questions other than to try to act superior and make it your fault that his non-answers don't actually answer or explain anything he says.

    Frankly, for any rational person to say a temprorary government shutdown means we have smaller government is ludicrous and indefensible. For it to mean we have smaller government at least a portion of the furloughed employees wouldn't be called back to work after the politicians stop swinging their purses at each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Can't help you. It's apparent you lack the ability to understand the point of what a shutdown means.
    You are having difficulty in keeping up with your own posts. All I am doing is trying to glean some pieces of your vague plan to make Federal government operate better. Again, I state: please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Sorry. Not worth the effort.
    In my neck of the woods, we have a saying that describes folks like you:

    Big hat; no cattle.

    You seem to have been passionate about your stance so far. The problem is your assertions have width but no depth. Maybe you aren't as passionate about whatever your cause is after all? I hope that maybe I have caused you to rethink some of the lines you've drawn in the sand.

    I'm disappointed that you gave up that easily. Either way, I hope you appreciate the bigger perspective I've shown you.
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    In my neck of the woods, we have a saying that describes folks like you:

    Big hat; no cattle.

    You seem to have been passionate ab
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    dfwfirefighter,

    You are wasting your time trying to get a clear, rational, sensible, response from scfire. He will just dance around and around and around and never answer your questions other than to try to act superior and make it your fault that his non-answers don't actually answer or explain anything he says.

    Frankly, for any rational person to say a temprorary government shutdown means we have smaller government is ludicrous and indefensible. For it to mean we have smaller government at least a portion of the furloughed employees wouldn't be called back to work after the politicians stop swinging their purses at each other.
    I already explained my rationale. I'll do it again. The context of "smaller" government used by conservatives is fewer bureaucrats enforcing regulations. That is going on during the shutdown.

    Can't make it any plainer than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    You are having difficulty in keeping up with your own posts. All I am doing is trying to glean some pieces of your vague plan to make Federal government operate better. Again, I state: please elaborate.
    I don't have a vague plan to make government operate better. I've stated no such thing. It is now obvious that you have difficulty keeping up with my posts because you either don't read them, or see things that aren't there.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I'm disappointed that you gave up that easily. Either way, I hope you appreciate the bigger perspective I've shown you.
    I'm disappointed that you lack basic comprehension skills.

    I understand your bigger perspective. I just don't understand why I should have to pay for it.

    My point all along is that you justify the existence of the NFA and why it should it be funded. I can point to any government program who has supporters for those programs like you in the same manner you support the NFA.

    Conservatives all claim they want to reduce spending. Seems to me programs like the NFA would be a good start.

    Consider this. There are four programs that consume all of the tax revenues collected.

    Social Security
    Medicare/Medicaid
    Defense
    Interest on the National Debt

    Everything else (i.e. NFA) is funded via deficit (aka borrowed) spending. So, as someone else asked, do you consider the NFA to be such a worthwhile program that the US should borrow money to pay for it?
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-12-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I already explained my rationale. I'll do it again. The context of "smaller" government used by conservatives is fewer bureaucrats enforcing regulations. That is going on during the shutdown.

    Can't make it any plainer than that.
    It is a temprary change that in the end will have no meaningful effect on anything and you know it. Odds are every furloughed employee will be paid for time lost while furloughed, or they will figure someway around to make up the lost income.

    All the regulations will be enforced once again when the idiotic game playing from both sides of the political spectrum ends.

    You make nothing plain, you sing, you dance, you use smoke and mirrors, and NEVER give a straight answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It is a temprary change that in the end will have no meaningful effect on anything and you know it. Odds are every furloughed employee will be paid for time lost while furloughed, or they will figure someway around to make up the lost income.

    All the regulations will be enforced once again when the idiotic game playing from both sides of the political spectrum ends.

    You make nothing plain, you sing, you dance, you use smoke and mirrors, and NEVER give a straight answer.
    I explained my statement. You choose to ignore it.

    That's your prerogative.

    Folks are feeling the effects of what "smaller" government would mean with this shutdown.

    You can continue to stick to this point. I'm okay with that. Especially since it is benefiting the President.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-13-2013 at 11:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I explained my statement. You choose to ignore it.

    No you tried to explain your point which is ridiculous and indefensible.

    That's your prerogative.

    Thanks for thinking you can give me permission what to think or believe.

    Folks are feeling the effects of what "smaller" government would mean with this shutdown.

    Yeah, it is destroying lives here in Wisconsin where the governor, who hasn't made too many right moves since being elected, flipped the bird to the feds and has reopened every national park in Wisconsin. Frankly, I hope more people realize that more of the functions that the federal government does could be done much more cost efficiently at the state level with state employees. The government would not be smaller, just the employees would be state and local, not federal.

    You can continue to stick to this point. I'm okay with that. Especially since it is benefiting the President.

    I don't think it is benefitting either party, more and more people are showing pure disgust for both political parties and their power hungry agendas that abandon the true concerns of the average working American.
    The problem with being a zealot is you simply are blind to anything other than what you believe. I am no zealot and I claim no political party affiliation. I choose candidates not parties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The problem with being a zealot is you simply are blind to anything other than what you believe. I am no zealot and I claim no political party affiliation. I choose candidates not parties.
    Polling shows your claim of it affecting both parties to be partially true. It is definitely affecting the GOP more.

    As the shutdown continues more and more people are realizing the impact government has to their everyday lives. If you're a tour operator whose livelihood depends upon the 18,000 folks who visit the Grand Canyon every month you'd be singing a different tune.

    So I'm hoping the House GOP follows Ted Cruz's leadership and continues to, "hold the line."

    I choose candidates as well. I just happen to believe the GOP has become a group that is indifferent to the middle class. Something that wasn't always the case.

    Everyday conservative groups are attacking public employees as being overpaid, underworked, and incompetent. I don't believe they no longer represent my values.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Polling shows your claim of it affecting both parties to be partially true. It is definitely affecting the GOP more.

    As the shutdown continues more and more people are realizing the impact government has to their everyday lives. If you're a tour operator whose livelihood depends upon the 18,000 folks who visit the Grand Canyon every month you'd be singing a different tune.

    So I'm hoping the House GOP follows Ted Cruz's leadership and continues to, "hold the line."

    I choose candidates as well. I just happen to believe the GOP has become a group that is indifferent to the middle class. Something that wasn't always the case.

    Everyday conservative groups are attacking public employees as being overpaid, underworked, and incompetent. I don't believe they no longer represent my values.
    Actually, the State of Arizona appopriated funds to re-open the Grand Canyon. Do try to keep current on your facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Actually, the State of Arizona appopriated funds to re-open the Grand Canyon. Do try to keep current on your facts.
    I'm aware that AZ just did that. Why? Because the Grand Canyon is one of the few economic engines in that part of the state.

    In CA the governor has stated he'll do no such thing and I support him. Two of the most popular national parks (Yosemite and Death Valley) reside in districts of congressional representatives that voted for the shutdown.

    I only used the Grand Canyon as an example. I thought I read that Utah has done the same thing. The point being is that conservatives clamor for smaller government. Well, shutting down the national parks (along with the NFA) and the collateral negative effect is what "smaller" government means.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-13-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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    No smaller government means the same as a fat person going on a diet. You lose some useless fat, you don't cut your leg off in the name of smaller government just for spite. And I know every special interest group considers their program essential and every one else "fat" - but I believe that a true bi-partisan committee could at the very least cut out duplication of services.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    No smaller government means the same as a fat person going on a diet. You lose some useless fat, you don't cut your leg off in the name of smaller government just for spite. And I know every special interest group considers their program essential and every one else "fat" - but I believe that a true bi-partisan committee could at the very least cut out duplication of services.
    The shutdown is showing people what "smaller" government looks like.

    The idea you are proposing isn't one being put forth by the GOP's refusal to fund the current obligations of the US.

    In fact, they are offering nothing than doing their jobs.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-13-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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