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Thread: Proposed Government Shut-Down and the National Fire Academy

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Interestingly, if it wasn't for all the major programs being suspended, the politicians would have no reason to ever work this out. While it stinks to be effected by this (for some far more than others!) if there was no outrage, this would just be more partisan politics. Without cutting the funding to soldiers death benefits or a few other programs that set us ablaze, we'd ignore this too. Tack on another 4 years of the liberals "Robinhooding" the money away from the middle class as the Republicans have crashed the bus with their "all or nothing" push. Of course the Dems are not playing nice either but they're not getting much media attention for refusing to accept cuts or slow the ACA before it breaks us even further.

    And while I've enjoyed the NFA, I wouldn't for a second place this even on the list of "essential services" for the shut-down or forever. If you think having to miss your NFA class is a big deal try walking in a soldiers boots for a few days. The fact that this is even a topic here while soldiers families aren't being flown in to receive their bodies is a disgrace.
    Is the funding for the NFA even close to the importance of the funding for the military, including paying the death benefits and taking care of the families? Hell no. In fact, it's not even close.

    And I never stated that it was.

    Nor is it close to the importance of the FBI, CIA, NSA, FAA, TSA, Food & Drug and other similar security or critical regulatory agencies.

    But I do consider the NFA important to the fire service. It's our national Academy that offers education (not training .. And there is a major difference) that you cannot get at the local or state level, and offers networking opportunities that are not available anywhere else.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-11-2013 at 05:36 PM.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I never said it was your program.
    Then what did you mean by this?:

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Every government program has the same type of individuals such as yourself justifying its existence.
    So who are these "same type of individuals"?

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You just don't understand it.
    Apparently I don't. Please elaborate and explain "it".
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-11-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  3. #63
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just like Obumba's 37%?
    So what? Is the President up for election next year?

    You're not to savvy on politics, are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But I do consider the NFA important to the fire service. It's our national Academy that offers education (not training .. And there is a major difference) that you cannot get at the local or state level, and offers networking opportunities that are not available anywhere else.
    I don't consider it important. So why should I have to pay for it? You want to network, do it at your own expense.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-11-2013 at 08:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Then what did you mean by this?:
    Can't help you. It's apparent you lack the ability to understand the point of what a shutdown means.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Apparently I don't. Please elaborate and explain "it".
    Sorry. Not worth the effort.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    dfwfirefighter,

    You are wasting your time trying to get a clear, rational, sensible, response from scfire. He will just dance around and around and around and never answer your questions other than to try to act superior and make it your fault that his non-answers don't actually answer or explain anything he says.

    Frankly, for any rational person to say a temprorary government shutdown means we have smaller government is ludicrous and indefensible. For it to mean we have smaller government at least a portion of the furloughed employees wouldn't be called back to work after the politicians stop swinging their purses at each other.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Can't help you. It's apparent you lack the ability to understand the point of what a shutdown means.
    You are having difficulty in keeping up with your own posts. All I am doing is trying to glean some pieces of your vague plan to make Federal government operate better. Again, I state: please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Sorry. Not worth the effort.
    In my neck of the woods, we have a saying that describes folks like you:

    Big hat; no cattle.

    You seem to have been passionate about your stance so far. The problem is your assertions have width but no depth. Maybe you aren't as passionate about whatever your cause is after all? I hope that maybe I have caused you to rethink some of the lines you've drawn in the sand.

    I'm disappointed that you gave up that easily. Either way, I hope you appreciate the bigger perspective I've shown you.
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  7. #67
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    In my neck of the woods, we have a saying that describes folks like you:

    Big hat; no cattle.

    You seem to have been passionate ab
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    dfwfirefighter,

    You are wasting your time trying to get a clear, rational, sensible, response from scfire. He will just dance around and around and around and never answer your questions other than to try to act superior and make it your fault that his non-answers don't actually answer or explain anything he says.

    Frankly, for any rational person to say a temprorary government shutdown means we have smaller government is ludicrous and indefensible. For it to mean we have smaller government at least a portion of the furloughed employees wouldn't be called back to work after the politicians stop swinging their purses at each other.
    I already explained my rationale. I'll do it again. The context of "smaller" government used by conservatives is fewer bureaucrats enforcing regulations. That is going on during the shutdown.

    Can't make it any plainer than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    You are having difficulty in keeping up with your own posts. All I am doing is trying to glean some pieces of your vague plan to make Federal government operate better. Again, I state: please elaborate.
    I don't have a vague plan to make government operate better. I've stated no such thing. It is now obvious that you have difficulty keeping up with my posts because you either don't read them, or see things that aren't there.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I'm disappointed that you gave up that easily. Either way, I hope you appreciate the bigger perspective I've shown you.
    I'm disappointed that you lack basic comprehension skills.

    I understand your bigger perspective. I just don't understand why I should have to pay for it.

    My point all along is that you justify the existence of the NFA and why it should it be funded. I can point to any government program who has supporters for those programs like you in the same manner you support the NFA.

    Conservatives all claim they want to reduce spending. Seems to me programs like the NFA would be a good start.

    Consider this. There are four programs that consume all of the tax revenues collected.

    Social Security
    Medicare/Medicaid
    Defense
    Interest on the National Debt

    Everything else (i.e. NFA) is funded via deficit (aka borrowed) spending. So, as someone else asked, do you consider the NFA to be such a worthwhile program that the US should borrow money to pay for it?
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-12-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I already explained my rationale. I'll do it again. The context of "smaller" government used by conservatives is fewer bureaucrats enforcing regulations. That is going on during the shutdown.

    Can't make it any plainer than that.
    It is a temprary change that in the end will have no meaningful effect on anything and you know it. Odds are every furloughed employee will be paid for time lost while furloughed, or they will figure someway around to make up the lost income.

    All the regulations will be enforced once again when the idiotic game playing from both sides of the political spectrum ends.

    You make nothing plain, you sing, you dance, you use smoke and mirrors, and NEVER give a straight answer.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It is a temprary change that in the end will have no meaningful effect on anything and you know it. Odds are every furloughed employee will be paid for time lost while furloughed, or they will figure someway around to make up the lost income.

    All the regulations will be enforced once again when the idiotic game playing from both sides of the political spectrum ends.

    You make nothing plain, you sing, you dance, you use smoke and mirrors, and NEVER give a straight answer.
    I explained my statement. You choose to ignore it.

    That's your prerogative.

    Folks are feeling the effects of what "smaller" government would mean with this shutdown.

    You can continue to stick to this point. I'm okay with that. Especially since it is benefiting the President.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-13-2013 at 11:41 AM.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I explained my statement. You choose to ignore it.

    No you tried to explain your point which is ridiculous and indefensible.

    That's your prerogative.

    Thanks for thinking you can give me permission what to think or believe.

    Folks are feeling the effects of what "smaller" government would mean with this shutdown.

    Yeah, it is destroying lives here in Wisconsin where the governor, who hasn't made too many right moves since being elected, flipped the bird to the feds and has reopened every national park in Wisconsin. Frankly, I hope more people realize that more of the functions that the federal government does could be done much more cost efficiently at the state level with state employees. The government would not be smaller, just the employees would be state and local, not federal.

    You can continue to stick to this point. I'm okay with that. Especially since it is benefiting the President.

    I don't think it is benefitting either party, more and more people are showing pure disgust for both political parties and their power hungry agendas that abandon the true concerns of the average working American.
    The problem with being a zealot is you simply are blind to anything other than what you believe. I am no zealot and I claim no political party affiliation. I choose candidates not parties.
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  11. #71
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The problem with being a zealot is you simply are blind to anything other than what you believe. I am no zealot and I claim no political party affiliation. I choose candidates not parties.
    Polling shows your claim of it affecting both parties to be partially true. It is definitely affecting the GOP more.

    As the shutdown continues more and more people are realizing the impact government has to their everyday lives. If you're a tour operator whose livelihood depends upon the 18,000 folks who visit the Grand Canyon every month you'd be singing a different tune.

    So I'm hoping the House GOP follows Ted Cruz's leadership and continues to, "hold the line."

    I choose candidates as well. I just happen to believe the GOP has become a group that is indifferent to the middle class. Something that wasn't always the case.

    Everyday conservative groups are attacking public employees as being overpaid, underworked, and incompetent. I don't believe they no longer represent my values.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Polling shows your claim of it affecting both parties to be partially true. It is definitely affecting the GOP more.

    As the shutdown continues more and more people are realizing the impact government has to their everyday lives. If you're a tour operator whose livelihood depends upon the 18,000 folks who visit the Grand Canyon every month you'd be singing a different tune.

    So I'm hoping the House GOP follows Ted Cruz's leadership and continues to, "hold the line."

    I choose candidates as well. I just happen to believe the GOP has become a group that is indifferent to the middle class. Something that wasn't always the case.

    Everyday conservative groups are attacking public employees as being overpaid, underworked, and incompetent. I don't believe they no longer represent my values.
    Actually, the State of Arizona appopriated funds to re-open the Grand Canyon. Do try to keep current on your facts.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Actually, the State of Arizona appopriated funds to re-open the Grand Canyon. Do try to keep current on your facts.
    I'm aware that AZ just did that. Why? Because the Grand Canyon is one of the few economic engines in that part of the state.

    In CA the governor has stated he'll do no such thing and I support him. Two of the most popular national parks (Yosemite and Death Valley) reside in districts of congressional representatives that voted for the shutdown.

    I only used the Grand Canyon as an example. I thought I read that Utah has done the same thing. The point being is that conservatives clamor for smaller government. Well, shutting down the national parks (along with the NFA) and the collateral negative effect is what "smaller" government means.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-13-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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    No smaller government means the same as a fat person going on a diet. You lose some useless fat, you don't cut your leg off in the name of smaller government just for spite. And I know every special interest group considers their program essential and every one else "fat" - but I believe that a true bi-partisan committee could at the very least cut out duplication of services.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    No smaller government means the same as a fat person going on a diet. You lose some useless fat, you don't cut your leg off in the name of smaller government just for spite. And I know every special interest group considers their program essential and every one else "fat" - but I believe that a true bi-partisan committee could at the very least cut out duplication of services.
    The shutdown is showing people what "smaller" government looks like.

    The idea you are proposing isn't one being put forth by the GOP's refusal to fund the current obligations of the US.

    In fact, they are offering nothing than doing their jobs.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-13-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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    An example of how conservatives now view public servants.

    From Fox News' Stuart Varney:

    I’m sick and tired of a massive bloated federal bureaucracy living on our backs and taking money out of us, a lot more money than most of us earn in the private sector, then giving a furlough, and then getting their money back at the end of it. Sorry, I’m not for that. I want to punish these people. Sorry to say that. That’s what I want to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    An example of how conservatives now view public servants.

    From Fox News' Stuart Varney:
    The fact is that state and federal employees do earn more when comparing the same job to the private sector.

    And likely we could easily cut the number of federal and state workers by up to 10% and feel little impact if some work rules were changed to improve efficiency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that state and federal employees do earn more when comparing the same job to the private sector.

    And likely we could easily cut the number of federal and state workers by up to 10% and feel little impact if some work rules were changed to improve efficiency.
    You have battered wife syndrome. Instead of complaining about the high wages of federal and state employees, you should be asking why wages in the private sector are so low. While at the same time, wages in the exec ranks have gone through the roof.

    You can thank the conservative agenda over the last 30 years that attacked and destroyed organized labor. It has resulted in a shrinking middle class and stagnated wages.

    A recent CBO report concluded that less-educated federal workers make a bit more than their private-sector counterparts and receive more generous benefits. Workers with a complete or incomplete college education or a master’s degree tend to make about the same amount, again with more generous benefits. But highly educated federal workers earn less than their peers in the private sector.

    Since you live off a taxpayer funded job maybe you should start writing checks back to your employer. If you truly believe you are overpaid.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-14-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that state and federal employees do earn more when comparing the same job to the private sector.

    And likely we could easily cut the number of federal and state workers by up to 10% and feel little impact if some work rules were changed to improve efficiency.
    I have to say your complaining about wages seems a little hypocritical when the Fire Academy, a federal agency is paying you, and paying your expenses to fly from LA to WI to teach a class. Just saying...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I have to say your complaining about wages seems a little hypocritical when the Fire Academy, a federal agency is paying you, and paying your expenses to fly from LA to WI to teach a class. Just saying...
    Maybe it is.

    The simple fact is that government, at every level costs too much and needs to be reduced.

    And yes, that includes reducing welfare, food stamps, Section 8 housing, reducing unemployment time as well as every other arm of government, including the NFA and the FireAct and SAFER grant programs.

    And like business, the majority of those costs are labor.

    So either we reduce the costs by reducing salaries and benefits or we reduce the number of government employees. Those are the only 2 ways to reduce labor related costs.

    If the NFA told me tomorrow that they are changing to a regional instructor system where a regional instructor gets first crack at a class, and a instructor out of that designated region only gets a crack at that class if the instructors in the region can't teach it or none of the instructors in that region bids on it as a way to reduce travel costs, that would be fine.

    That would make sense.

    Or even if they decided to go to full-time regional instructors and the contract instructors were kicked out the door, that would be fine as well if it was determined that it would reduce delivery costs.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 10-15-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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