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Thread: Proposed Government Shut-Down and the National Fire Academy

  1. #81
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The simple fact is that government, at every level costs too much and needs to be reduced.
    So how much of your pay do you give back since you believe government paid labor costs too much?

    Put your money where your mouth is.

    Otherwise you just continue to prove you are a complete moron.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-16-2013 at 10:26 AM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."


  2. #82
    Forum Member dfwfirefighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I don't think Dr. Onieal and his staff had any say so in the abrupt manner the campus was closed due to the lapse in funding but "how" it locked its doors disappoints me nonetheless.
    I've heard from a few friends about how the government under-utilization occurred at the NFA.

    There was a full-house of one- and two-week courses occurring at the time. An aquaintance of mine was just starting the second week of their two-week course. Word came down the pipeline that the government under-utilization would occur on Tuesday. His course had completed enough of the work that the instructors proposed that if the class was willing, they'd stay as long as necessary - all night into Tuesday morning, if needed to complete the course and mail the certificates at a later date.

    His class, and several others that were in position to do such that, conducted class in a similar manner that night. I think the security officers allowed the instructors and student until 0100 on Tuesday morning to utilize the NFA facilities.

    Tuesday morning at 0800, everyone was assembled in the auditorium and notified that the under-utilization had taken effect and that they had 1.5 hours to pack their bags and head out on the buses.

    The classes that had just started on Monday and several of the others classes will have to be made up - either in person in a subsequent NFA offering or via correspondence/mail.

    Any certificates earned during the under-utilization will be mailed whenever the "light switch" is turned back on.

    It certainly is nice to see that, in spite of situations beyond their control, that both the NFA faculty and staff, the instructors, and students made the best out of a unique occurrence.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-16-2013 at 09:18 AM.
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  3. #83
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    If people want to cut Federal spending I suggest an amendment that prevents a state from receiving more spending in tax dollars than it produces. Currently 16 states are propping up the rest of the freeloaders. Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas are the only states that receive $1 or less (most less, some like Minnesota far less) in Federal spending for every dollar of taxes they provide to the Federal Government.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I've heard from a few friends about how the government under-utilization occurred at the NFA.
    Is this the latest euphemism? I've heard slim down and partial shutdown.

    I wish there were more stories like yours in the media that shows the professionalism of the frequently portrayed as slothful and incompetent federal government. I've seen very little pointing out that nearly half of the government is being forced to show up for work unpaid, and for the most part they are coming to work (everyone has a few turds in the workforce that will find a way to milk a situation).
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  4. #84
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    If people want to cut Federal spending I suggest an amendment that prevents a state from receiving more spending in tax dollars than it produces. Currently 16 states are propping up the rest of the freeloaders. Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas are the only states that receive $1 or less (most less, some like Minnesota far less) in Federal spending for every dollar of taxes they provide to the Federal Government.
    Bingo!! There is a great article in today's LA Times about ranchers in S. Dakota who voted to send crazy tea party types to congress and are now complaining that the shutdown is affecting their subsidies. They want their subsidies to offset losses incurred by their herds of cattle being frozen to death (literally). Their representative had no problem voting against aid for Hurricane Sandy victims yet (like others like Ted Cruz) now want the taxpayer to provide a safety net for their livelihoods.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Bingo!! There is a great article in today's LA Times about ranchers in S. Dakota who voted to send crazy tea party types to congress and are now complaining that the shutdown is affecting their subsidies. They want their subsidies to offset losses incurred by their herds of cattle being frozen to death (literally). Their representative had no problem voting against aid for Hurricane Sandy victims yet (like others like Ted Cruz) now want the taxpayer to provide a safety net for their livelihoods.
    Yes. And senators who voted no for Sandy aid were real quick to put out their hands for aid after the recent flash floods. Of course, those people should have been helped and were. That's how the federal gov't should work.

  6. #86
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Yes. And senators who voted no for Sandy aid were real quick to put out their hands for aid after the recent flash floods. Of course, those people should have been helped and were. That's how the federal gov't should work.
    Totally agree.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Forum Member dfwfirefighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    Is this the latest euphemism? I've heard slim down and partial shutdown.
    That was a phrase I coined myself. This thread started out as a simple discussion of the affect(s) the government "shut-down" would have on the NFA. A few posters turned this into tried to spin this topic into a political statement about their beliefs.

    After a few posts from a few posters, it became very apparent to me what the "shut down" was - it was a deliberate under-utilization of resources. One poster argued that this was an example of "smaller" government. I countered that it is not smaller government - it is underutilized government.

    Why do I say "under-utilized"? All of the stuff that was shut down is still owned by the government. To make it smaller, programs would have to be permanently discontinued, the assets would have to be declared as surplus and sold, and the employees would have to be let go. THAT is smaller government.

    In the context of what is going on now, government is not smaller - it is just not being used. The light switch, so to speak, is still there ready to be turned "on". When they turn it on, everything will still be there and will still work. After everyone gets back into their rhythm, like it or not, and independent of your political affiliation, all will be back to what our government considers "normal". That is not smaller government. It is an example of under-utilization.
    slackjawedyokel likes this.
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  8. #88
    Forum Member Miller337's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Here and there;1386730]If people want to cut Federal spending I suggest an amendment that prevents a state from receiving more spending in tax dollars than it produces. Currently 16 states are propping up the rest of the freeloaders. Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas are the only states that receive $1 or less (most less, some like Minnesota far less) in Federal spending for every dollar of taxes they provide to the Federal Government.

    While I tend to agree with you in many ways. Here is part of the problem the feds have millions of acres of land in Montana which the sales of timber and mining was to fund the schools. F.S. and enviromentalists have virtually ruined these programs. I personally believe the feds should have to sell the land like it was supposed to be to be utilized and taxed.
    Montana has about 700 miles of interstate highway which is maintained for everyone to use. Do you want to make it a toll road?
    I truly believe that the more involvement the feds have the more something costs and less efficient it operates. I really don't have a good idea how to fix it at this point it is so screwed up.

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    While I tend to agree with you in many ways. Here is part of the problem the feds have millions of acres of land in Montana which the sales of timber and mining was to fund the schools. F.S. and enviromentalists have virtually ruined these programs. I personally believe the feds should have to sell the land like it was supposed to be to be utilized and taxed.
    Montana has about 700 miles of interstate highway which is maintained for everyone to use. Do you want to make it a toll road?
    I truly believe that the more involvement the feds have the more something costs and less efficient it operates. I really don't have a good idea how to fix it at this point it is so screwed up.
    [/QUOTE]

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  10. #90
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    ...nearly half of the government is being forced to show up for work unpaid...
    Uh, you do know that every single one of them will receive their pay....it was just delayed in getting to them. None of them are working for free.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #91
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    [QUOTE=Miller337;1386819]
    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    If people want to cut Federal spending I suggest an amendment that prevents a state from receiving more spending in tax dollars than it produces. Currently 16 states are propping up the rest of the freeloaders. Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas are the only states that receive $1 or less (most less, some like Minnesota far less) in Federal spending for every dollar of taxes they provide to the Federal Government.

    While I tend to agree with you in many ways. Here is part of the problem the feds have millions of acres of land in Montana which the sales of timber and mining was to fund the schools. F.S. and enviromentalists have virtually ruined these programs. I personally believe the feds should have to sell the land like it was supposed to be to be utilized and taxed.
    Montana has about 700 miles of interstate highway which is maintained for everyone to use. Do you want to make it a toll road?
    I truly believe that the more involvement the feds have the more something costs and less efficient it operates. I really don't have a good idea how to fix it at this point it is so screwed up.
    Not sure where you get the idea the land was supposed to be sold and taxed. A lot of land was given away, stripped of resources than abandoned which is why the idea of public land was proposed in the first place, so it could be managed for later generations. The forests in the east were bought by the government, just cut over trashed land restored over generations. The left over land (the land too crappy to homestead) eventually went to the BLM.

    As far as taxing the land, the Feds actually do pay property tax to the states where they have land to make up for the lack of taxable development. The USFS has been paying for rural developments since the 80s when the timber cut was drastically cut back to help make up for the loss of local income. Of course without those public lands the railroads probably would have cut all the trees leaving nothing anyway. They were well on their way to doing that in 1890 when the first forest reserves were established.

    DFW, sorry for joining in the derailment, I probably should have just kept my mouth shut but I find it amusing that with the exception of Texas the bulk of the cut government spending mantra comes out of the states that receive more in taxes than they give.

    I actually agree with your Government under utilization title, it has been a stupid situation with those of us who were still at work not being able to do anything but strictly emergency work. I lost the last 3 weeks I had with my crew to finish up project work instead sitting around watching TV and playing volleyball while waiting for "The Big One". They get laid off for the season Saturday so that is just work that won't get done until next year.

    I do appreciate the positive experiences you passed on from the employees of the NFA. Despite the common image as loafers in my experience most government workers actually do want to do a good job and help the people they exist to help. As much of the public thinks firefighting is a pretty cush job involving lots of time in front of the tube, eating on the tax payers dime and getting paid to sleep I would think many here would be less quick to twist the knife in the backs of others.


    Bones, there was no guarantee of pay for those sent home until the last minute (passed when they passed the CR and debt limit). While "working for free" may be a bit of an exaggeration for those of us who were excepted, being told to keep coming to work and we will eventually pay you when DC gets its collective head out of its rectum is not far from it. We don't know when that will be but eventually it will happen, BTW here is a note you can give to your creditors.

    Silly me for getting irritated about my employer stiffing me on payday, while they borrowed my salary and retirement funds to pay their bills.

  12. #92
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    As far as taxing the land, the Feds actually do pay property tax to the states where they have land to make up for the lack of taxable development.
    True. Google the term "PILT."

    Payments in Lieu of Taxes.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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