You comment that the belay is being operated incorrectly is correct... and I think that's the point of Eric's original reply. And I think that Mike has added his agreement; that we need to constantly be moving forward, asking questions, doing testing, making sure that what we were doing is still appropriate.
You, you can probably make any technique, device or method fail, just do it incorrectly! Again I think the point they are trying to make is that the inclusion of the PMP in the TPB creates an opportunity for the TPB to be operated incorrectly AND a LOT of people (including instructors) don't even know that what they're doing is potentially dangerous. I have seen/heard plenty of people tell students to simply pull on the belay rope during a raising operation.. let the pulley mind the prusiks and all is well. NOT SO as the video shows.
We have to get the word out there because (sadly) most of the users aren't looking for updated information. Am I the only guy who thinks it's strange that there aren't any continuing education requirements (or for that matter any requirements) to be a technical rescue instructor?
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10-24-2013, 11:09 PM #21
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
10-25-2013, 11:12 PM #22
Dave, I agree!
I just do not like that someone shows a system with an incorrect technique and then states that system is unsafe. The system is safe if properly taught, and it is the job of instructors to not only show the correct method but the dangers of incorrect methods. Will become a talking point for any time we are using the TTWPB.
I too am now done with the soapbox. Onward to the next problems.~Drew
USAR TF Rescue Specialist
10-29-2013, 03:37 PM #23
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- eastern WA
I'll do the soap box thing too. Two things that bother me:
(1) For some (not all) agencies you can take the 40 hr Technician class and the Instructor 1 class and suddenly you're an instructor. Some agencies ignore the wisdom that 10,000 hrs of exposure is required to create a subject matter expert from the average novice. 10,000 hrs might seem like alot; but, 40 hrs seems like way too little.
(2) The casual manner in which many people belay; as if the belay is just there to use up extra gear and personnel. One thing that screams casual to me about the TPB is allowing the prusiks to loosen or not dressing them properly in the first place. The prusiks should be snug enough to make an audible sound as the belay line in pulled through them.
The minding action of the PMP can loosen prusiks; this is just as unsafe as back tension by the operator.
So, regardless of whether you use the PMP or not, keep your prusiks snug on the belay line.
And, use the pinch test. Prusiks that pass the pinch test are more likely to grab properly.
And that's all I have to say about that.
10-31-2013, 04:04 PM #24
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Southern Illinois
I would prefer to simply break into the line with a set-of-fours, if such is the solution to the problem. More options and working room on the rope behind the haul grab.
Aside from all of that, with a pulley behind the Prusiks in raising mode, even if one is properly handling the Prusiks for the belay, somebody/belayer still needs to pull all of that gained slack thru the pulley at some point. If you're doing it whilst belaying, then that means there is still a hand on that end of the rope, which contributes to the problem of the Prusiks not holding the rope in a dynamic event. Also, the very weight of the slack end of the pile of belay rope laying on the ground behind or next to the pulley could provide enough back tension on the rope to give a similar effect of someone holding the rope. And whether anyone is holding back tension or not on the rope behind the pulley is beside the point that the pulley sheave is lining the rope up perfectly with the tunnel of the Prusiks.
So again, once you've heard the test package hit the ground, you'll certainly think twice about the unnecessary pulley behind the Prusiks.
Last edited by EricUlner; 10-31-2013 at 04:09 PM. Reason: clarity
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