Like Tree7Likes
  • 3 Post By captnjak
  • 4 Post By FyredUp

Thread: Vindicator Nozzle

  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    245

    Default Vindicator Nozzle

    Anyone using the Vindicator nozzle? Your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,058

    Default

    My #1 POC FD tested them and I liked the low pressure they worked at and the high flow they gave. We tested one on 1 3/4 inch hose where we got a flow of 167 gpm with a nozzle pressure of 25 psi with a range of about 50 or 60 feet.

    I liked them, but we didn't buy them. Why you ask? Because a couple of guys thought they were too loud. I stood there in total disbelief...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    dfwfirefighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Lone Star State
    Posts
    350

    Default

    My department has utilized them on a few engine companies in each battalion since about 2001. A few thoughts:

    Their use was initially a "field test" to determine their suitability in our department. The field test never "officially" began and therefore, never ended.

    To my knowledge, if the "field test" Vindicator nozzle becomes unusable due to damage or maintenance, it is replaced with a "standard" nozzle.

    The Vindicator nozzles received mixed reviews: people either loved them and wanted to use them on every fire, OR they absolutely hated them (and would often take them off, replace it with a spare "regular" nozzle, and put it in a compartment).

    I've never used one.

    As a side-note, my department uses Task Force Tips nozzles and appliances exclusively and we love their products.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 10-03-2013 at 12:31 PM.
    DFW



    "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    As a side-note, my department uses Task Force Tips nozzles and appliances exclusively and we love their products.
    It's a funny thing about nozzles, everyone seems to have their own idea of what is best or what they like. My career FD never used TFTs, my #1 POC FD went away from them about a decade ago, and my #2 POC FD is making the transition away from them now.

    Different strokes for different folks. I would have loved to have a Vindicator on at least one line on my #1 POC FD for those times during the day when staffing was VERY limited and high flow was needed immediately. But I was out voted.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    We bought the Vindicator Heavy Attack to evaluate and are happy with the results. We've not purchased any more as of yet, but most of the crews like it for the flow range offered. We tested ours and found we could flow 275 gpm on a 1.75" line with two guys and it was easy. They could take it to 300 gpm but it started to be work at that point. The max we could do was 340 gpm from the 1.75" but sticking it on a 2.5" went up to 430 gpm. It was much easier to control at higher flows than with our Elkhart SM-20F's or 15/16" smoothbores. For our guys it's a choice of the Vindicator or the smoothbore, the fog tips stay in the compartments for LPG issues.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    dfwfirefighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Lone Star State
    Posts
    350

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I would have loved to have a Vindicator on at least one line...
    That is what the Vindicator nozzle companies have. It is usually mounted on the rear pre-connect. The two pre-connected crosslays have "regular" TFT nozzles.
    DFW



    "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    My #1 POC FD tested them and I liked the low pressure they worked at and the high flow they gave. We tested one on 1 3/4 inch hose where we got a flow of 167 gpm with a nozzle pressure of 25 psi with a range of about 50 or 60 feet.

    I liked them, but we didn't buy them. Why you ask? Because a couple of guys thought they were too loud. I stood there in total disbelief...
    The noise could be a problem. What if the occupants were asleep during the fire. Would you really want to wake them unnecessarily?

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    The noise could be a problem. What if the occupants were asleep during the fire. Would you really want to wake them unnecessarily?
    Now that is some funny ****te right there. I suppose the occupants would file a complaint!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    354

    Default

    We evaluated one a month ago. Currently use Elkhart SM30 on 200' 1'-3/4"pre-connect.
    Tested ours first and it was hooked up to 3 different monitors. One at the connection to the engine that measured discharge pressure. Another measured GPM. The third measured nozzle back pressure.

    Test with our SM30 pumping at our normal PDP 125 PSI. We flowed 167 GPM with 75 Nozzle Pressure. One person operating. It was manageable but difficult to move with ease or without strain. We all guessed prior to the test that we'd get about 200 GPM with 125 PDP. To get to 200 GPM with SM30 we had to increase PDP to 150psi. Back pressure on nozzle was 90 and totally unable to be moved while flowing by one person.

    Vindicator test with same hose. PDP 150 PSI, 244 GPM, 32 back pressure on nozzle. Easily moved by one person. Reach was the same distance as SM30. At 125 PDP we reached 232 GPM with 30 back pressure.

    Still waiting for field test nozzle. There are many factors that play into these numbers and each pumper needs to be individually calibrated to get correct flows.

  10. #10
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,314

    Default

    We run a Vindicator Heavy Attack (VHA) on both my engine at work as well as the volunteer station.

    Because of our water availability, station spacing, quick response times, and a number of other factors, we very rarely use ours at work. Fires that we can't bring under control with the preconnects are either handled by the BlitzFire or in worst case, the tower ladder that sits in the bay next to the engine. 90% of our fires are handled with the 1.75" (either 15/16" smoothbore or a 175 @ 75 fog) or 2.5" (1 1/4" smoothbore) preconnects.

    Although we don't have nearly the fire load at my volunteer house because of our rural nature, we do use the VHA more. With a 53-square-mile first due, we naturally have a longer response times to our incidents, there's a greater chance for the fire to be well-involved, or become more well-involved as it becomes a ventilation-controlled fire prior to our arrival. It's nice to be able to have a manageable, high-volume (225+ GPM) handline to make a quick knock on a fire in it's advanced stages.

    I would NEVER recommend more than a single Vindicator for an engine company. First, the number of times you'll likely use it versus your medium-caliber automatic, fixed flow, or smoothbore nozzles is very low. Secondly, if you have that much fire - put the high-caliber device in service!
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    A couple of you have mentioned not using the VHA due to it's higher flow? Isn't that the same argument we've used to up the gpm using 1.75" over 1.5" for years, saying the only bad thing about dragging a higher flow line is the relative ease? Surely we agree that more water means the fire goes out quicker? I hope our firefighters are better than years passed so we're not worrying about wasted water.

    If the engine crew can deploy a 225 gpm+ line with the same ease as a smoothbore or fog tipped 1.75" line with a 180 gpm flow, what would be the downside?

    Unlike Box187 I'd not have any issue with tipping out any 1.75" line that currently has a smoothbore as there'd be little difference. I'd ask why they get used so little? Those that still run fog tips will have the largest issues as they tend to "need" the hydraulic vent and pattern adjustment.

    OK, I should concede that we found the VHA doesn't like low flows, the lack of pressure in the line coupled with the weight of the nozzle makes it kink at the connection very easy. So during overhaul it would not be the greatest tool for wetting and washing.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 10-04-2013 at 05:58 AM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Golzy12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    476

    Default

    I haven't used the vindicator yet but it sounds like the rep is going to be coming in to give us his sales pitch in the near future. How can a nozzle with such high flow at so little nozzle pressure possibly have good reach. It seems like magic based on what some of you have said so far....

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Golzy12 View Post
    I haven't used the vindicator yet but it sounds like the rep is going to be coming in to give us his sales pitch in the near future. How can a nozzle with such high flow at so little nozzle pressure possibly have good reach. It seems like magic based on what some of you have said so far....
    Our tests included a non-scientific observation of reach. We found nearly every time the nozzles were pretty close at the same flows. Of course how much reach do we really need on the 1.75"? It's rare that this is the choice when reach is most important. Interior firefights rarely challenge the reach of any properly functioning nozzle, short those in large non-compartmentalized spaces.

    As for why high flow little break-up works on the Vindicator? Maybe because it's not trying to be a perfect laminar stream like the smoothbore, subject to any turbulence and it doesn't break the stream into tiny droplets that are as easily effected as the pattern widens?
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 10-04-2013 at 04:57 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    A couple of you have mentioned not using the VHA due to it's higher flow? Isn't that the same argument we've used to up the gpm using 1.75" over 1.5" for years, saying the only bad thing about dragging a higher flow line is the relative ease? Surely we agree that more water means the fire goes out quicker? I hope our firefighters are better than years passed so we're not worrying about wasted water.

    If the engine crew can deploy a 225 gpm+ line with the same ease as a smoothbore or fog tipped 1.75" line with a 180 gpm flow, what would be the downside?
    I shook my head at those comments too. If the flow of the nozzle is 225 and you only need 60 gallons to put the fire out you shut the nozzle off after about 16 seconds. It is the nozzle operator that prevents water damage, not the nozzle or flow rate creating water damage. Personally, I would rather have the higher flow and not need it than get my azz kicked trying to make a lesser stream do what it can't.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #15
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,314

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I shook my head at those comments too. If the flow of the nozzle is 225 and you only need 60 gallons to put the fire out you shut the nozzle off after about 16 seconds. It is the nozzle operator that prevents water damage, not the nozzle or flow rate creating water damage. Personally, I would rather have the higher flow and not need it than get my azz kicked trying to make a lesser stream do what it can't.
    If that's the case, we'll take a pre-connected BlitzFire in and shut it off in 8 seconds - more knockdown in half the time! ;-)

    In all seriousness though, it IS a training issue, but I've personally witnessed the Vindicator causing far more water damage on a simple kitchen fire than the fire itself did. I don't know about your departments, but mine certainly aren't running any more fires than we have in the past, so when we do catch of job and a different nozzle is added into the mix, it can be difficult for the members to adjust to the different approach to fire knockdown that's required.

    As much as I am a proponent of the nozzle in some situations, I wouldn't use it as my every day nozzle. It's noticeably heavier and obviously much longer than my standard 15/16" smooth bore and its got that blasted pistol grip on it. Could I use it as my primary preconnect? Sure. But when I'm finding success in my fires with the standard no frills 185GPM smoothbore, that'll continue to be my choice.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  16. #16
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,314

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Golzy12 View Post
    How can a nozzle with such high flow at so little nozzle pressure possibly have good reach. It seems like magic based on what some of you have said so far....
    I'd say it's reach is comparable to other smoothbores. But how much reach do you really need for a standard room-and-contents in a 12x14 bedroom?
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    But you're gonna float the furniture out the front door you bunch of barbarions!
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    But you're gonna float the furniture out the front door you bunch of barbarions!
    Just think of it as doing the homeowner a favor. You've saved them the trouble of hauling that smoke stinking, soot stained sofa out anyway.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    104

    Default

    I just don't understand why a Vindicator nozzle is able to have less reaction force than a smooth bore? I thought reaction force was directly related to the flow at specific pressures.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FatherPierce View Post
    I just don't understand why a Vindicator nozzle is able to have less reaction force than a smooth bore? I thought reaction force was directly related to the flow at specific pressures.
    I don't claim to be an expert on the Vindicator but I believe it has to do with the air induction at the base of the nozzle. The design is very similar to a foam tip that inducts air to aerate the foam.

    And then again I could be 100% wrong.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I don't claim to be an expert on the Vindicator but I believe it has to do with the air induction at the base of the nozzle. The design is very similar to a foam tip that inducts air to aerate the foam.

    And then again I could be 100% wrong.
    I thought I was wrong once... it turned out that I was just mistaken...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deputychiefgonzo View Post
    i thought i was wrong once... It turned out that i was just mistaken...
    booooooo!

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    We have used the vindicator for years and it works very well. I don't care for the version on the master stream, even though it flows over 1000 gpm I don't feel it has the reach and hit that a solid stream has.
    Never had a wind driven fire with it, but I have similar concerns about its ability to get deep to the seat

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Wanting a used Vindicator Light Attack Nozzle
    By chiefanthony in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-17-2009, 03:22 PM
  2. Vindicator Nozzle Info
    By CaptJake30 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-12-2007, 09:14 PM
  3. Vindicator Nozzle class/demo at PFD
    By mohican in forum Ohio
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-26-2005, 04:02 PM
  4. Vindicator Nozzle
    By FireSar in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 11-09-2004, 11:29 PM
  5. Vindicator Nozzle
    By billy in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-13-2002, 07:24 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register