Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36
Like Tree7Likes

Thread: US system of fire fighting more dangerous than other ones?

  1. #21
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Manpower is the answer, and I full well know exactly what Jasper 45 meant. When we as professional firefighters, paid or volunteer, talk about manpower in the sense that Jasper 45 did, we mean properly trained and doing the right thing. Not a bunch of yard breathers, or T-shirt firefighters, milling around trying to look good but not get dirty or really do any work.

    Come out into small rural volly land where sometime the entire response of the original department during the day may be 4 to 6 guys and the pucker factor is strong doing the best you can while waiting for mutual aid to arrive. At my former career FD we knew we had 13 guys minimum coming on a working still, and twice that on a box, I believe Milwaukee runs 3 and 2 and that gets them 20 plus guys on a working still.
    He said there were guys and rigs and handlines everywhere. Then he repeated that there were guys everywhere. That's all he really said. I did not get from his post all that you did. I responded with a point that manpower doesn't always equal productive manpower and I gave examples. Similar to the ones you gave. He accused me of being nitpicky, although I wasn't trying to be. Or critical either.
    This appears to break down along cultural lines. The members of short staffed or lightly staffed departments believe manpower is the answer. I am not anti-staffing. But we get over 50 firefighters on a structural fire. And the first 30 are there within minutes, with the balance shortly behind them. At most fires about half of them never really do much work, if any at all. I've seen YouTube videos of house fires with 10 or 12 firefighters on the roof. Not a good thing. I guess I'm saying that manpower is the answer up to a point. There is definitely such a thing as too much. Of course it's great to have if something escalates.
    I was teaching a tactics class once when a guy from a rural department asked what our staffing was on a house fire. When I told him, he started to laugh and asked why we didn't just pick the house up and dump the fire out the back door!


  2. #22
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,036

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    A bunch of guys running around doesn't put out fires. A sufficient number of streams flowing the required amount of water puts fires out. And properly placed firefighters searching and overhauling effectively will support the function of extinguishment.
    And it takes manpower to operate a sufficient number of streams flowing the required amount of water, plus a bunch of corksoakers providing them the water.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  3. #23
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    224

    Default

    One difference I can point to, and correct me if I'm wrong, is architecture and building materials.

    In Europe, you had two World Wars rage through, plus countless other major conflicts etc. This taught you lessons in how to construct buildings and cities to weather such things better. Ie stone and concrete and masonry hold up better and don't lend themselves to massive firestorms like wooden buildings do. From what I've gathered, your buildings tend to be more compartmentalized as well.

    Here, we've never seen the likes of the massive destruction that occurred during the wars. Most of our oldest cities were begun when wood was extremely plentiful, and skilled masons were scarce and costly. Much of that still remains, now tinder dry and renovated so many times that you never know what you'll find inside. Wood is still the least expensive building material, but the rising costs, both of materials and labor, have led to using smaller dimension lumber and pre made components. The outsides are most often sided with vinyl or aluminum siding over a plastic wrap moisture barrier, and chipboard or pressed fiber panels.

    Fill that house with tons of hydrocarbon based synthetics, seal it up tight, add long discovery and response times, and you have a recipe for disaster.

    In other words: in North America, the majority of homes are almost ALL fuel. Newer construction can be compared to vertical lumberyards. Small dimension lumber surrounded by interconnected voids, allowing the fire to spread in all directions easily. Fire can also spread from the outside in very quickly- totally bypassing any sprinkler systems or firestopping. You could say they're the ultimate expression of the throwaway mentality. I doubt they'll last hundreds of years like some of the old style ones have. They are literally death traps under fire conditions.

    Also add in that most firefighters a) only work a handful of real structure fires in their careers, and b) also have to train for and deal with a million other emergencies. Means we're less experienced, and not as well trained and focused as we could be.

    This only addresses the LODD's stemming from actual structure fires. Wildfires, esp in the arid west cause many more, as do traffic accidents, stress, and health and fitness related matters.

  4. #24
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    And it takes manpower to operate a sufficient number of streams flowing the required amount of water, plus a bunch of corksoakers providing them the water.
    I think I've explained my point here. Manpower alone isn't enough. That's what I said and that's what I meant.

    I'm glad you agree that manpower is useless if they're not being properly utilized to operate streams and supply water.

  5. #25
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    He said there were guys and rigs and handlines everywhere. Then he repeated that there were guys everywhere. That's all he really said. I did not get from his post all that you did. I responded with a point that manpower doesn't always equal productive manpower and I gave examples. Similar to the ones you gave. He accused me of being nitpicky, although I wasn't trying to be. Or critical either.

    Seriously, Jasper 45 is a member of the Milwaukee Fire Department, a well trained, highly skilled, proud traditioned, Fire Department. They are not a bunch of yokals running around with no concept of what they are doing.

    This appears to break down along cultural lines. The members of short staffed or lightly staffed departments believe manpower is the answer. I am not anti-staffing. But we get over 50 firefighters on a structural fire. And the first 30 are there within minutes, with the balance shortly behind them. At most fires about half of them never really do much work, if any at all. You seem to contradict yourself here and then seem to justify staffing cuts saying half of the 50 don't do anything. It's easy to talk the way you do when you know you have the cavalry rolling in behind you at EVERY fire. Now how about a reality check? My career FD is a suburb of Milwaukee and on a still we got 13 firefighters, twice that on a box but that includes mutual aid companies. I believe Milwaukee runs 3 and 2 to a still giving them over 20 on that initial call. Now take it out into the rural where some FDs are lucky to get 4 to 8 guys during a daytime call without mutual aid and often the mutual aid is in the same situation. Tell those guys manpower isn't the answer when you pull up to a fully engulfed barn fire with an engine and a tender. You talked about 50, get real, that isn't how the majority of the world works. I have great respect for the FDNY but it seems some of you have little respect for anyone that isn't you or doesn't do what you do.I've seen YouTube videos of house fires with 10 or 12 firefighters on the roof. Not a good thing. I guess I'm saying that manpower is the answer up to a point. There is definitely such a thing as too much. Of course it's great to have if something escalates. Generally those fires are big city FDs with people standing around. My career FD never had anyone standing around because with limited staffing everyone was working and usually multi-tasking.

    I was teaching a tactics class once when a guy from a rural department asked what our staffing was on a house fire. When I told him, he started to laugh and asked why we didn't just pick the house up and dump the fire out the back door! He laughed because like I said above your real world isn't even a fantasy to a rural department with 20 or less members. Go out and run with those guys a while and you will NEVER say again that you have too many guys with guys standing there waiting for something to do.
    Sometimes you just have to free your mind and see the world through other's eyes.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  6. #26
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Sometimes you just have to free your mind and see the world through other's eyes.
    You are putting words in my mouth. A couple of points:

    I did not know where jasper works. It doesn't matter. I did not accuse him or Milwaukee FD of being yokels (with or without any concept of what they are doing).

    I did not justify staffing cuts. I made a point of saying I was not anti staffing.

    I don't need a reality check. I know that not all departments are like mine. I stated that staffing attitudes seem to line up culturally according to where we work. I acknowledged that there are departments that are lightly staffed or short staffed.

    I have no lack of respect for those outside the FDNY. I don't expect anyone to do what we do. Don't lump me in with anyone (FDNY or otherwise) who does. Take a couple of FDNY engines, tell them to draft from a pond, fill some tankers, transport the water to the scene and supply an operating pumper and there will probably be some hiccups. Because we don't routinely do what many of you do. I have never denied this.

    Sometimes we DO have too many guys. More than we can use. Riding with a lesser staffed department won't change that.

    Finally, you say I should free my mind and see through other's eyes? Wouldn't you have an equal responsibility to free YOUR mind and see through MY eyes? Seems it should be a two way street. Maybe you need to ride with us for a while.

  7. #27
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,783

    Default

    My bad. When I spoke, I guess in my head I was talking about guys qualified to do the job. You know, stretch hose, advance lines, force entry, vent, etc...my bad, on assuming that.
    In my world, it GENERALLY takes two people to place a ladder...more than that to operate a handline, carry generators, drag victims, place shoring, rig rope systems, place trench panels, etc...maybe that's just me...

    I stand by my statement. Actually, I stand by my bosses statement, made twenty years ago, or so. If you need that explained to you, so be it.

    As far as Germany...I dunno, if they kill fewer guys and have way more guys doing the stuff we do, maybe we should check into what they're doing.

    Don, thanks for the props. Given the past month, or so, very much undeserved.

  8. #28
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    My bad. When I spoke, I guess in my head I was talking about guys qualified to do the job. You know, stretch hose, advance lines, force entry, vent, etc...my bad, on assuming that.
    In my world, it GENERALLY takes two people to place a ladder...more than that to operate a handline, carry generators, drag victims, place shoring, rig rope systems, place trench panels, etc...maybe that's just me...

    I stand by my statement. Actually, I stand by my bosses statement, made twenty years ago, or so. If you need that explained to you, so be it.

    As far as Germany...I dunno, if they kill fewer guys and have way more guys doing the stuff we do, maybe we should check into what they're doing.

    Don, thanks for the props. Given the past month, or so, very much undeserved.
    There was no offense meant toward you or your department. Or that old boss of yours. I was just making the point that there is a not so subtle difference between "there were guys everywhere" and "the guys were working like a well oiled machine" (or something along those lines).
    And yes, apparently I did need it explained to me. For reasons already put forth.

  9. #29
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,783

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    There was no offense meant toward you or your department. Or that old boss of yours. I was just making the point that there is a not so subtle difference between "there were guys everywhere" and "the guys were working like a well oiled machine" (or something along those lines).
    And yes, apparently I did need it explained to me. For reasons already put forth.
    Bad thing about the on-line thing...s h i t ain't always conveyed...too many assumptions make for too many needless arguments and stress...I could have worded my post better...we all learn


    My sole point is staffing covers all the work that needs to be done. If you have too many (tongue-in-cheek) guys on scene, it's "all covered".
    Last edited by Jasper 45; 10-24-2013 at 09:55 PM.

  10. #30
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    You are putting words in my mouth. A couple of points:

    I did not know where jasper works. It doesn't matter. I did not accuse him or Milwaukee FD of being yokels (with or without any concept of what they are doing).

    I did not justify staffing cuts. I made a point of saying I was not anti staffing.

    I don't need a reality check. I know that not all departments are like mine. I stated that staffing attitudes seem to line up culturally according to where we work. I acknowledged that there are departments that are lightly staffed or short staffed.

    I have no lack of respect for those outside the FDNY. I don't expect anyone to do what we do. Don't lump me in with anyone (FDNY or otherwise) who does. Take a couple of FDNY engines, tell them to draft from a pond, fill some tankers, transport the water to the scene and supply an operating pumper and there will probably be some hiccups. Because we don't routinely do what many of you do. I have never denied this.

    Sometimes we DO have too many guys. More than we can use. Riding with a lesser staffed department won't change that.

    Finally, you say I should free my mind and see through other's eyes? Wouldn't you have an equal responsibility to free YOUR mind and see through MY eyes? Seems it should be a two way street. Maybe you need to ride with us for a while.
    My mind is free, I am somewhat jealous of the fact that you can overwhelm many fires with manpower, trained, skilled experienced manpower. What you seem to fail to understand, perhaps because you don't know people well enough here, when the average firefighter talks about needed manpower to kick a fire's azz he is talking about trained, skilled firefighters, not yard breathers.

    I would love to come ride. Send me the liability waiver and I will be on my way as soon as I can fit it in to my teaching schedule.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  11. #31
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    My mind is free, I am somewhat jealous of the fact that you can overwhelm many fires with manpower, trained, skilled experienced manpower. What you seem to fail to understand, perhaps because you don't know people well enough here, when the average firefighter talks about needed manpower to kick a fire's azz he is talking about trained, skilled firefighters, not yard breathers.

    I would love to come ride. Send me the liability waiver and I will be on my way as soon as I can fit it in to my teaching schedule.
    No I don't know people well enough here. After all, it's for the most part an anonymous forum. So when the "average" firefighter speaks I don't think any of us should presume to know what the hell he's talking about.

    I admit that it's different for the handful that actually do know each other.

    Unfortunately there is no waiver for ride alongs because there are basically NO ride alongs allowed. "Official" approval is next to impossible to get.

  12. #32
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    No I don't know people well enough here. After all, it's for the most part an anonymous forum. So when the "average" firefighter speaks I don't think any of us should presume to know what the hell he's talking about.

    Just like earning your bones in the firehouse to get accepted there is a "time in grade" learning curve here at FH.com. Once you are here a while you will develop a sense of who knows the job and who is a probie and who is to be avoided.

    I admit that it's different for the handful that actually do know each other.

    Some of us do actually know each other and have met, some just know each other from here and experience of past exchanges.

    Unfortunately there is no waiver for ride alongs because there are basically NO ride alongs allowed. "Official" approval is next to impossible to get.

    Well then, as excited I was about the offer it seems it is not a possibility.
    It is hard sometimes to express certain things clearly in the printed word.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #33
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    Bad thing about the on-line thing...s h i t ain't always conveyed...too many assumptions make for too many needless arguments and stress...I could have worded my post better...we all learn


    My sole point is staffing covers all the work that needs to be done. If you have too many (tongue-in-cheek) guys on scene, it's "all covered".
    There goes my impression of you, ya former hillbilly whacker
    IAFF

  14. #34
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    My bad. When I spoke, I guess in my head I was talking about guys qualified to do the job. You know, stretch hose, advance lines, force entry, vent, etc...my bad, on assuming that.
    In my world, it GENERALLY takes two people to place a ladder...more than that to operate a handline, carry generators, drag victims, place shoring, rig rope systems, place trench panels, etc...maybe that's just me...

    I stand by my statement. Actually, I stand by my bosses statement, made twenty years ago, or so. If you need that explained to you, so be it.

    As far as Germany...I dunno, if they kill fewer guys and have way more guys doing the stuff we do, maybe we should check into what they're doing.

    Don, thanks for the props. Given the past month, or so, very much undeserved.
    Andy, you know I have your back. The negative press is a few bad apples in an entire orchard of good people that are good firefighters. keep your chin up and this too shall pass with those deserving punishment dealt with appropriately.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #35
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It is hard sometimes to express certain things clearly in the printed word.
    So I've noticed. But it seems so clear inside my head!

  16. #36
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    So I've noticed. But it seems so clear inside my head!
    Ya gotta watch what those voices say to you....
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-24-2009, 11:32 PM
  2. Fighting Feelings For Fighting Fires
    By fireunderdog in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 07-01-2008, 11:24 AM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-01-2008, 05:50 PM
  4. SMOKE or FIRE? Which is most dangerous?
    By PaulGRIMWOOD in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 09-26-2005, 12:13 PM
  5. Fighting Fire Down Under
    By SmokenJoe in forum Wildland Firefighting
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-15-2002, 11:14 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts