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Thread: Creative AHDs

  1. #1
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    Default Creative AHDs

    Guys,
    Polling to see what constructive creations any of you have used for constructing AHDs. I'm a huge fan of the Vortex (and probably the Terradaptor and similar) but my volunteer department doesn't have anything like that. I'd love to hear some creative feedback, as well as photos if available, on what you have used to create an elevated anchor point. I've heard of things such as Hi Lift jacks, ladders, timbers, etc being used for monopods and bipods. I think rigging without manufactured AHDs has become a lost art. By the way, I just came across an old book from Dawson Nethercutt, that has many old ways of rigging timbers!


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    Forum Member MichaelXYZ's Avatar
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    There are quite a few ways to use a ladder. A-frame, ladder gin, interior and exterior leaning ladder.

    Here is a ladder gin.


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    Default

    And that being said, does anyone know of any agencies that teach improvised rigging of AHDs, such as we're discussing in this thread? Timbers, ladders, etc

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    I know the text you want to learn all about Gin Poles, A frames, block and tackle, sheerlegs, tripods, jib arms, pickets, etc.
    It is the United States Civil Defense Heavy Duty Rescue Course manual IG-14-3. Several; sites on line have the manual. It was the predesessor to todays FEMA FOG manuals / Heavy rescue classes and for the most part will help you with what you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1FF View Post
    And that being said, does anyone know of any agencies that teach improvised rigging of AHDs, such as we're discussing in this thread? Timbers, ladders, etc
    Dawson was the master at these skills. A great guy to learn from although I'm sure he is retired now since he was old (like me now) in the mid 80s. I have his book, too.

    Mike Dunn

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    I too have a copy of Nethercutt's book.... great resource!!!

    At the moment we don't have an Arizona Vortex hopefully once the 2014 budget gets approved it will be ordered. In the mean time we train on improvised AHDs as described in this thread.

    Vehicles down an embankment are a major risk for us though they don't happen too often, our crews know that a ladder gin off the side of the rig is our go to tactic for this scenario.
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    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by backsteprescue123 View Post
    I too have a copy of Nethercutt's book.... great resource!!!

    At the moment we don't have an Arizona Vortex hopefully once the 2014 budget gets approved it will be ordered. In the mean time we train on improvised AHDs as described in this thread.

    Vehicles down an embankment are a major risk for us though they don't happen too often, our crews know that a ladder gin off the side of the rig is our go to tactic for this scenario.
    Just keep in mind that the ladder gin is only rated for 1 person.
    For an embankment (depending on angle) I would just opt for anchoring off the engine with an RPM and have the rope go over the edge.

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    We have used some heavy 12' tall 6"x6"s, same ones we carry as whalers for trench. Used in both mono- and bipod with simple webbing wraps and thraps. Heavy, but worked well.

    Used the ladder gin for AHH in trench rescue, real nice because you don't need to be getting heavy equipment to close to a trench.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    Just keep in mind that the ladder gin is only rated for 1 person.
    For an embankment (depending on angle) I would just opt for anchoring off the engine with an RPM and have the rope go over the edge.
    OK, I'll bite…. Who says the ladder gin is only "rated" for a 1 person load? What, if anything, is this "rating" based on? Testing? Something from a ladder manufacturer?

    Sounds like another one of those that's-what-I-was-told-in-rope-class stories. Properly constructed the ladder gin is great, poorly/improperly rigged I can see it collapsing with less than a one person load.

    Dave
    backsteprescue123 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue Dave View Post
    OK, I'll bite…. Who says the ladder gin is only "rated" for a 1 person load? What, if anything, is this "rating" based on? Testing? Something from a ladder manufacturer?

    Sounds like another one of those that's-what-I-was-told-in-rope-class stories. Properly constructed the ladder gin is great, poorly/improperly rigged I can see it collapsing with less than a one person load.

    Dave
    I got the info from my Ca state OSFM Rescue Systems 1 training manual. It states on pp. 171
    Key Points
     All of the ladder rescue systems shown can support one-person
    loads.
     Rescue Systems 1 will use only one-person loads on all ladder
    rescue systems.
     The ladder “A” frame is capable of a two-person load if rigged
    properly and used safely.
    You can download a copy of the RS1 manual from this link:
    http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/training/dow...sftmanuals.php

    According to NFPA 1931, Roof ladders are rated for a max working load of 750 lbs. In NFPA 1983 7.8.4 General use portable anchor devices must have a MBS of 36 Kn.

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    All well and fine if the ladder is the anchor, but for this it is just a high directional. I would like to see the testing results for a ladder being used as a AHD when properly rigged. I would bet that it rates high enough for a two person load. The real issue I can see a team having is if something happen integrity wise to the ladder and a patient ended up more injured or killed and the family asked the ladder maker what they thought........ This is a truly gray area dealing with AHD sometimes. We have used trees, can anyone for sure tell me what a tree will fail at? I have done tree work for years and still will tell you its my best EDUCATED guess. I still can tell you a hand full of times though that a "sure thing" in my head with a tree failed me..... Keep in mind, in the end the lawyer is not your friend and they will always try to make you look like an under educated *****.

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    If we look at it using math.
    See image:


    The forces from the load and guy line can be seen as 600 lbs sin(20deg)= x sin(25deg)= ~485 lbs
    Now the vector sums of the load and guy lines on the ladder 600 lbs cos(20deg)+ 485 lbs cos(25deg) equals approx 1003 lbs. This number exceeds the NFPA 1931 ladder rating.

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    when was the last time you had made a rescue or a pick of 600 lbs? I know how to do all the math but I look at this in a realistic stance. I know NFPA says two people = 600lbs but that doesn't meet reality either. Although man are people getting lazy and fat anymore!!

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    What I mean about the last is it is rare to have a 600# load. If you did and a ladder was to be your choice more then one would be the way to have done it not one.

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    I do have a question for you all going along with the ladder being used as a AHD ( not asking for the right or wrong of using a ladder for this ). When you have used the ladder as an AHD, how have you gone about it? Do you use a roof ladder two fly, crane setup ( two ladders, one behind the other )? I have done a multitude of different ways for the given objective. Even had used a roof ladder as a floating platform while in a confined space to work on ( I was also on my own climbing lines as well). Depending on the setup will change the forces so was interested on how and why you go with what you do.

    Oh, I am pro ladder use for AHD, just like to give both sides of the conversation. Just know why you are doing what you are doing and the forces that apply before you act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfield View Post
    I do have a question for you all going along with the ladder being used as a AHD ( not asking for the right or wrong of using a ladder for this ). When you have used the ladder as an AHD, how have you gone about it? Do you use a roof ladder two fly, crane setup ( two ladders, one behind the other )? I have done a multitude of different ways for the given objective. Even had used a roof ladder as a floating platform while in a confined space to work on ( I was also on my own climbing lines as well). Depending on the setup will change the forces so was interested on how and why you go with what you do.

    Oh, I am pro ladder use for AHD, just like to give both sides of the conversation. Just know why you are doing what you are doing and the forces that apply before you act.
    I have done the crane setup and it worked well however most of the time we are just looking to use the AHD to make the slope evac a little easier. For the ladder gin we have done it with both an extension ladder and a roofer. We prefer to use the extension ladder just for the added bulk.(whether it actually contributes to the strength of the system, I couldn't tell you)

    Also, most of our slope evac's aren't going to be considered "high angle" we just use the AHD to make it a little easier.
    Fairfield likes this.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
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