1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    120

    Default Trouble with total side removal on 4 door car.

    So I've been watching videos and physically attempting to make this happen like it does in the videos and it never works right.

    By total side removal I'm talking about the "batwing" maneuver to hinge both doors onto the front hinge and take out the B post.

    My issue is that every time I go to spread the door away from the rocker panel, it shears downward and into the rocker panel which never ends up ripping off. The last attempt I had to use a sawzall to complete the cut on the sheet metal that wouldn't snap away at a full 32" spread.

    I have tried both cutting the top of the B post prior to the spread and cutting it after. Cutting it after seems to be a bit more effective but I still haven't had success.


    Another issue is actually getting the cutter in below the hinge on the b post to make the relief cut. We have the holmatro core spreaders and it is very difficult to get them in place at a straight angle that doesn't point downward.

    Any suggestions?

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    232

    Default

    We cut the B post first, this allows the extra movement needed to rip the bottom. We also use Holmatro tools and in essence we are really just cutting two cuts, 1 on each side front & back, and using the tips of the spreader to then spread and ultimately just rip the bottom of the B post off the rocker. Those down angled cuts should facilitate that. You may find additional cutter or spreader moves are needed to finish the job. A key would be making sure the attack angle of the spreaders is pushing against the remaining good rocker and the now unconnected B post.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    868

    Default

    I don't remember ever having a need for the kind of full (two doors plus post) access you describe. I know, never say never, but it seems like overkill for the extrications I've seen. (Some were in Brooklyn)

    The toughest extrications I've been involved with all seemed to require a little trial and error along the way. Every car is different and every accident is different.

    And I am not an expert in this area, so I can't offer much more.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,088

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I don't remember ever having a need for the kind of full (two doors plus post) access you describe. I know, never say never, but it seems like overkill for the extrications I've seen. (Some were in Brooklyn)
    The most common situations where it would be a good technique are when someone is trapped in both the front and the back, on the same side; and when a front seat occupant is very tall or fat, or is heavily entrapped into the dash. The B post can be in the way pretty bad in those situations.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,165

    Default

    I don't think it makes a difference, but with our Genisis tools, we cut the top of the B post, then the bottom of the B post, as horizontal as we can. What makes the difference I think, is the position of the spreader. We're taught to have it as vertical as possible, which kind of puts an upward movement on the bottom of the B post. That should help it from ripping downward. Of course with some cars, it might just be the construction. You could also try cutting a small wedge out of the bottom of the B post to get the spreaders in a bit better.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    FiremanLyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    948

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I don't remember ever having a need for the kind of full (two doors plus post) access you describe. I know, never say never, but it seems like overkill for the extrications I've seen. (Some were in Brooklyn)

    The toughest extrications I've been involved with all seemed to require a little trial and error along the way. Every car is different and every accident is different.

    And I am not an expert in this area, so I can't offer much more.
    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    The most common situations where it would be a good technique are when someone is trapped in both the front and the back, on the same side; and when a front seat occupant is very tall or fat, or is heavily entrapped into the dash. The B post can be in the way pretty bad in those situations.
    After taking the Auto Extrication with Ron at TCC we always concider complete side removal on our pin-ins. The larger opening makes patient management and extrication easier on both the patient and firefighters and once you have a technique down (batwing and spreading like discribed or cutting a few more taking the rear door, B-post and front door) it only takes a couple more minutes than a single door pop. Those extra few minutes are well spent when you are actually treating a real patient with real injuries.

    Also, we commonly use the recip saw to take the top of the B-post making a pie cut on the roof. It removes the sharps hazard of metal in your access hole and makes the hole that much bigger.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,029

    Default

    One thing to remember about the 2 door (rippenblitz) is once you cut the B post flush you don't have anything to push against if you want to ram the dash. (I know you can do a dash lift, or clamp your spreaders to push against) but always think ahead.
    ?

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,088

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    One thing to remember about the 2 door (rippenblitz) is once you cut the B post flush you don't have anything to push against if you want to ram the dash. (I know you can do a dash lift, or clamp your spreaders to push against) but always think ahead.
    Good point. I could see trimming off the top stub for the B but leaving the bottom one, and maybe even preserving some of its height to help brace a ram. Since posts flare out in width at the bottom, that would make it an easier cut anyhow.

    The sidewall removal also makes it easier to remove a patient with the ram still in place when the dash has been rolled.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Hi BrooklynBravest

    Good question, carrying out the technique you mention has many downsides, mainly the ones you have mentioned.
    The direction that the B-post takes a long with the sill we greatly depend on vehicle construction and strength in the post and sill.
    One main point is to get the cut at the base of the B-post as Horizontal as possible this will enable it to tear straight across without pulling out the sill. This is not always easily completed due to tool size and access problems.

    As you have realised it doesn't always go to plan, I have made a video of it ripping/tearing with ease then on other occasions it has ripped the sill as well causing a right mess.

    We cut the top of the B-post last, this prevents it from potentially coming in to contact with the patient when we are trying to tear the base of the post.

    Don't worry if the rip/tear doesn't go to plan just make sure you have an alternative method to move too that still allows for a timely extrication.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    120

    Default

    Yea I think I am going to cut the B post at the top last from now on. Without being attached at the top it started pulling downwarn with the spread nearly being in my face let alone if it went towards the patient.

    I had like 4 cars at my disposal to practice on however I pleased and tried it both ways. 2 out of 4 times i was entirely successful on spreading the post off the other 2 were a hassle.

    The other 2 times I got in there with a sawzall and a pretty lengthy blade and got it done.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    120

    Default

    It was suggested to me the other day two alternative methods for this technique.

    One was to cut a diagonal between the rocker and B post, and insert the tips directly into the cut and push away. I didn't like this one very much.

    The other was to make the same horizontal cut, and spread from the footwell under the rear seat into the back of the B post. Haven't tried it yet but it seems like a very viable way to sheer the post off with ease. Only issue I see is you probably need to use a 32" spreader.

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    firedan525's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    108

    Default

    After I get the back door open I like to cut the top of the B post then throw a few pieces of cribbing underneath the rocker. I get my cutters in there and cut a horizontal cut as low to the floor as I can then reposition and make another cut at a 45 degree angle up to cut a "wedge" out. This is helpful because it will give you a bit more maneuverability with you spreader tips to get your spread angled outward.

    Name:  3rd door.jpg
Views: 516
Size:  20.0 KB

    Take your spreader tips and place in the cut but before opening that bad boy up, slightly tilt them outward and get your bite at that angle.

    Name:  3rd door2.jpg
Views: 477
Size:  39.0 KB

    Name:  3rd doorspreadertilt.jpg
Views: 466
Size:  13.3 KB

    Doing this I have never had an issue.

    I let the probie finish it off.

    Name:  3rd door3.jpg
Views: 474
Size:  48.8 KB
    Last edited by firedan525; 12-15-2013 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Give a better explaination

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4

    Default

    In todays modern vehilce designs if you have a stable Pt complaining of back and / or neck pain total side removal is the only proper extrication technique, Other wise you have to manipulate the pt around the b- post to get them out. Total side removal reclin the back of the seat and slide them out diagonally on the LSB,

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    120

    Default

    I can't figure out what in the world I keep doing wrong.

    When I do it, 50% of the time it works, the other 50% instead of shearing the B post it pushes the B post and takes the side skirt with it, which keeps the door attached...

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    firedan525's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    108

    Default

    It happens bro. Just like I said in my post, try to get a decent wedge cut out as low as you can. This is sometimes hard to do based on where the vehicle is, or where it was struck. If you can though get a good chunk cut out low on the B post and crib underneath, you can angle your spreaders outward to get the outward shear needed.
    Last edited by firedan525; 08-04-2014 at 02:37 PM.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    5

    Default

    When you expose the trim on the B-Pillar look for a seam where the pillar connects to the bottom sill. The idea is to ensure you cut above that seam as what happens is once you start ripping the B-pillar is it will rip down to the seam and then follow it across. However if you cut through the seam it will continue to rip downwards and it doesn't tear properly.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. vehicle stability, door removal, and dash roll videos
    By sewerzuk in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-27-2011, 12:05 PM
  2. Door Removal Operation
    By omcia in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10-20-2009, 04:17 PM
  3. Side Impact SRS & Door Removal
    By Hamy91 in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-04-2009, 02:56 PM
  4. New Door Removal Tech.
    By AFFF in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-12-1999, 05:16 PM
  5. 3rd. door removal on pick-up trucks.
    By RS401 in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-03-1999, 06:34 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register