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Thread: Another pay for spray debacle

  1. #61
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Again, the homeowner should have taken the responsibbility to KNOW, not assume, that he had fire protection. Geezus I am sick to death of people not taking any responsibility for anything and then afterwards saying "I didn't know." Well why the PHUKK didn't you know? I have known who my fire department was, and where they were, every place I ever lived, all the way back to when I was a kid.

    I agree that $20K seems excessive, but the home owner could have avoided all this by doing some research.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Maybe the City departments don't go outside the city they are paid to protect?
    We are all guessing here, but I think Bones has a good point. The city FD responded and as soon as possible turned it over to rural metro. and I agree 100% with fyredup - the home owners started the whole ball rolling.
    ?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    We are all guessing here, but I think Bones has a good point. The city FD responded and as soon as possible turned it over to rural metro. and I agree 100% with fyredup - the home owners started the whole ball rolling.
    Negative. The only way the homeowner could have started the ball rolling was by SUBSCRIBING to RM services. He did not do this. How or why he did not do this doesn't matter. Whether or not we, or anyone else, approves of his decision (or even an ignorance based non-decision) doesn't matter. This is NOT a guess. This is one of the few things we actually know for sure.

  4. #64
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    I live next to an city that has been trying to annex the areas right next to it. And I mean RIGHT next to it as in a stones throw from the city limits. This would make it possible for the city to collect taxes for the services it was already providing. Some citizens were happy and some were not. I agree that if you want the services you have to pay for them. It seems that the citizens in this particular area of Arizona have options or at least sound like they have options. Might just take a little planning.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
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  5. #65
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    The more I look at this the less it makes any kind of sense.

    Rural Metro has 2 stations in East Maricopa County, both South of Scottsdale. It would appear the home was 7 miles east of Surprise (pop 120,000), North West of Glendale (pop 200,000) and North of Scottsdale (pop 220,000). Rural Metro's stations are in Mesa, so all three of these not exactly tiny city fire departments are considerably closer than Rural Metro that would have had to pass through Scottsdale to get there.

    Why on earth would anybody pay $500 a year to a fire department 20 miles away when you have 3 that are much closer (Surprise's station was only 7 miles away), particularly when you are already paying a county fire tax?

    This doesn't add up right to me.
    From my earlier post:

    Plug this lat and lon into your favorite map program for a rough idea of where the fire was, per FoxPhoenix.com: N 33.75310 W 112.41223.

    R/M's website lists the following stations:
    Fountain Hills
    Cave Creek
    Carefree
    West County
    East County
    Rio Verde Foothills

    There are two "west county" stations. One appears to be not too far south of Surprise.
    They are located at:
    N 33.56591 W 112.42087 (the closer of the two to the fire)
    and N 33.48706 W 112.35846

    I would judge the closer station to be about 12 or so miles from the fire scene, and a straight shot up a main road.

    I'm taking the homeowner's side on this - while those of us in the business would probably even pay the nearest fire station a visit and find out some details, the fact that there was a "fire" line item on the tax bill would probably cause the average citizen to assume that they had some sort of organized fire protection.

    Obviously, that's not the case for that locale, and as I said earlier, I blame the appropriate municipality (the county) for that confusion.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  6. #66
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    From my earlier post:

    They are located at:
    N 33.56591 W 112.42087 (the closer of the two to the fire)
    and N 33.48706 W 112.35846

    I would judge the closer station to be about 12 or so miles from the fire scene, and a straight shot up a main road.

    I'm taking the homeowner's side on this - while those of us in the business would probably even pay the nearest fire station a visit and find out some details, the fact that there was a "fire" line item on the tax bill would probably cause the average citizen to assume that they had some sort of organized fire protection.

    Obviously, that's not the case for that locale, and as I said earlier, I blame the appropriate municipality (the county) for that confusion.
    Sorry I simply can't buy your jusitfying the home owner's laziness and complacency. I pay a fire protection fee seperate from my taxes and you know what that pays for? HYDRANT RENTAL FEES! Because I am not on city water, yet I am in the city limits, I am required to pay a quarterly fee for the privilege of the fire department being able to use hydrant water to extinguish a potential fire on my property. That fee is NOT the taxes that I pay for fire protection, but if someone did not research the charge they may assume it went to the fire department and not the water utility.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  7. #67
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Do you have to do your own searching to find out what taxes to pay? I have never thought about that. We don't have any private fire companies in my area and I don't live in a fire district so I guess I wouldn't have any options. We just call the volunteers and they show up.

    It seems to me that if the information about fire coverage does not show up on Face Book or the internet, most people would remain blissfully unaware until disaster struck, and then be ****ed off that no one told them about it.
    It shouldn't be a mystery but it looks like the Hardy boys would not be able to figure out some area's fire policies.
    Last edited by conrad427; 11-13-2013 at 03:59 PM.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  8. #68
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    Disagree 100% - If you live in a subscription type fire prevention area, its your duty to make the choice to pay. I spent almost 15 years in a dirt poor rural FD that charged $35.00 a year. When we went to a non payer property, almost to a person they offered to pay the $35.00 -(after the fact) in AR the ceiling for billing is $500.00 - and to collect takes a full days worth of leg work. If you can get it at all. No sympathy for the homeowner at all. Captnjak - when you have fought fire with hand me down/home made gear you will have a different view of the non payers. And for the record I now live in an area that has a fire tax.
    ?

  9. #69
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Sorry I simply can't buy your jusitfying the home owner's laziness and complacency.
    If you live in a subscription type fire prevention area, its your duty to make the choice to pay.
    What? You mean there are places that don't have municipal fire protection? But I pay a tax for fire protection! It says so right here on my tax bill! What's this "subscription" thing you're talking about?

    While we can't rule out the very real possibility that the homeowner in question did, indeed, know about the subscription arrangement and thus chose to roll the dice by not paying up, it still comes down to who told them? Neighbors? The county? The previous property owner? Did R/M send them something in the mail, or maybe come knocking on their door to explain the situation? Is there a sign next to the road entering the area?

    It strikes me as ironic that less than 20 miles from one of the more progressive fire departments in the country, there are homes with zero municipal fire protection.

    Yes, the homeowner should have been aware of the need for a subscription. The big question is why he should even have to worry about it...

    Keep in mind, too, that R/M stands to make out like a bandit on this (assuming they collect). If the home owner had paid the subscription fee, they'd have gotten (wait for it) $500. Twenty grand worth of manpower and equipment for a measly $500. Far better, from a business standpoint, to nail the non-subscribers than to collect the fee.
    Last edited by tree68; 11-13-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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  10. #70
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    We can dance this around and around and around but the truth is we know absolutely nothing about whether the homeowner was notified or not. What I am saying though, LOUD AND CLEAR, is everywhere I have ever lived as an adult I made it my business to know who my fire, police and EMS protection were supplied by, what day garbage went out, whether we had curbside recycling, and so on. As I stated earlier I am so completely tired of people taking the "Nobody told me, Not my fault" position that it makes me want to vomit big green slimy bile infested chunks all over their front steps.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  11. #71
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As I stated earlier I am so completely tired of people taking the "Nobody told me, Not my fault" position that it makes me want to vomit big green slimy bile infested chunks all over their front steps.
    I did that once, but it was cafeteria spaghetti.
    As I said before, if it isn't on FaceBook, a whole crapload of the population does not know about it.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  12. #72
    Forum Member WVFD705's Avatar
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    Again there's no point in paying for fire protection that has no chance of getting there on time, anyway. Not to mention the house was gone and the bill was for overhaul. Why would a homeowner whom already lost his house want to pay for overhaul? His stuff already burned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Disagree 100% - If you live in a subscription type fire prevention area, its your duty to make the choice to pay. I spent almost 15 years in a dirt poor rural FD that charged $35.00 a year. When we went to a non payer property, almost to a person they offered to pay the $35.00 -(after the fact) in AR the ceiling for billing is $500.00 - and to collect takes a full days worth of leg work. If you can get it at all. No sympathy for the homeowner at all. Captnjak - when you have fought fire with hand me down/home made gear you will have a different view of the non payers. And for the record I now live in an area that has a fire tax.
    It is either his duty to pay or his choice to pay. Can't be both.

    Duty=have to pay.

    Choice=wants to pay.

    In addition, it doesn't appear as if he lives in a subscription type fire protection area. It appears that he lives 20 miles away from a subscription type private business who somehow showed up at the request of God knows who and against his stated (or at least strongly implied) wishes.Furthermore, they billed him exhorbitantly. Kind of like selling plywood for $200 a sheet just prior to a big storm. Illegal in many places (if not all).

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    We can dance this around and around and around but the truth is we know absolutely nothing about whether the homeowner was notified or not. What I am saying though, LOUD AND CLEAR, is everywhere I have ever lived as an adult I made it my business to know who my fire, police and EMS protection were supplied by, what day garbage went out, whether we had curbside recycling, and so on. As I stated earlier I am so completely tired of people taking the "Nobody told me, Not my fault" position that it makes me want to vomit big green slimy bile infested chunks all over their front steps.
    You are making the assumption that his stance is "nobody told me, it's not my fault". Maybe he was fully informed and made a choice not to subscribe to a service that really offers little to no real fire protection for his property. Even if he wasn't fully informed, HE DID NOT SUBSCRIBE! It does not matter why. What gives this private business the right to show up and perform a service he did not ask for and then bill him (exhorbitantly, no less)?

    Your decisions, while obviously responsible and mature, have nothing to do with this or any other homeowner's decisions.
    HuntPA likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    It is either his duty to pay or his choice to pay. Can't be both.

    Duty=have to pay.

    Choice=wants to pay.

    In addition, it doesn't appear as if he lives in a subscription type fire protection area. It appears that he lives 20 miles away from a subscription type private business who somehow showed up at the request of God knows who and against his stated (or at least strongly implied) wishes.Furthermore, they billed him exhorbitantly. Kind of like selling plywood for $200 a sheet just prior to a big storm. Illegal in many places (if not all).
    Choice (should) = consequences - I agree the amount seem out of whack, but again having seen a FD in the early 80s refuse to fight a fire in a non dues payers house get crucified on a national level. I have come to understand you are going to catch flack either way. Might as well get paid.
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    And having dealt with some what similar situations, I can almost guarantee that if they (surprise FD) had walked away without(requesting) salvage and overhaul , you would have heard "if they had only cooled it off my (guns/safe/computer/cash etc) could have been saved. Plus remember this is AZ where 15% RH is the norm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Choice (should) = consequences - I agree the amount seem out of whack, but again having seen a FD in the early 80s refuse to fight a fire in a non dues payers house get crucified on a national level. I have come to understand you are going to catch flack either way. Might as well get paid.
    In this case, what were the consequnces of his choice? The house was gone either way. RM, aside from the bill, appears to have been a total non-factor in that outcome. This particular case is not about RM providing fire protection. They provided no protection. Just mop up after the fact.
    Let's say he lived or will live in the house for 20 years. At $500 per year he would be into RM for $10,000. For what exactly? To show up and do mop up? For those who are going to say "it's like insurance and you pay it hoping not to ever need it", I disagree. At least the insurance company would show up and settle the claim. You know, do what they're expected to do. RM is not doing doing what they're expected to do, which is provide real fire protection to this home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    And having dealt with some what similar situations, I can almost guarantee that if they (surprise FD) had walked away without(requesting) salvage and overhaul , you would have heard "if they had only cooled it off my (guns/safe/computer/cash etc) could have been saved. Plus remember this is AZ where 15% RH is the norm.
    Who cares what would have been heard? That pales in comparison to private propery rights and private contractual agreements, or lack thereof.

  19. #79
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Who cares what would have been heard? That pales in comparison to private propery rights and private contractual agreements, or lack thereof.
    And you are making a HUGE assumption that the homeowner made a CHOICE to not pay for the subscription fee. Frankly, if that is the case, and he made that known, then NO ONE should have responded to the call and let the fire take its course.

    The fact that they did respond and they did work the fire leaves your assumption in doubt.

    Further private property rights do not allow you do engage in an activity that endangers neighboring property or lives. This fire may very well have endangered other structures and people and that may be why the Surprise FD responded initially and then they called RM to overhaul.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  20. #80
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Let's take a look at another aspect of this. The house in question appears to be a one story single family of frame construction.

    R/M had one rig on scene for six hours, another for four hours.

    I've been to controlled burns where we cleared faster than that with the building completely on the ground...
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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