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Thread: Another pay for spray debacle

  1. #76
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    And having dealt with some what similar situations, I can almost guarantee that if they (surprise FD) had walked away without(requesting) salvage and overhaul , you would have heard "if they had only cooled it off my (guns/safe/computer/cash etc) could have been saved. Plus remember this is AZ where 15% RH is the norm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Choice (should) = consequences - I agree the amount seem out of whack, but again having seen a FD in the early 80s refuse to fight a fire in a non dues payers house get crucified on a national level. I have come to understand you are going to catch flack either way. Might as well get paid.
    In this case, what were the consequnces of his choice? The house was gone either way. RM, aside from the bill, appears to have been a total non-factor in that outcome. This particular case is not about RM providing fire protection. They provided no protection. Just mop up after the fact.
    Let's say he lived or will live in the house for 20 years. At $500 per year he would be into RM for $10,000. For what exactly? To show up and do mop up? For those who are going to say "it's like insurance and you pay it hoping not to ever need it", I disagree. At least the insurance company would show up and settle the claim. You know, do what they're expected to do. RM is not doing doing what they're expected to do, which is provide real fire protection to this home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    And having dealt with some what similar situations, I can almost guarantee that if they (surprise FD) had walked away without(requesting) salvage and overhaul , you would have heard "if they had only cooled it off my (guns/safe/computer/cash etc) could have been saved. Plus remember this is AZ where 15% RH is the norm.
    Who cares what would have been heard? That pales in comparison to private propery rights and private contractual agreements, or lack thereof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Who cares what would have been heard? That pales in comparison to private propery rights and private contractual agreements, or lack thereof.
    And you are making a HUGE assumption that the homeowner made a CHOICE to not pay for the subscription fee. Frankly, if that is the case, and he made that known, then NO ONE should have responded to the call and let the fire take its course.

    The fact that they did respond and they did work the fire leaves your assumption in doubt.

    Further private property rights do not allow you do engage in an activity that endangers neighboring property or lives. This fire may very well have endangered other structures and people and that may be why the Surprise FD responded initially and then they called RM to overhaul.
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    Let's take a look at another aspect of this. The house in question appears to be a one story single family of frame construction.

    R/M had one rig on scene for six hours, another for four hours.

    I've been to controlled burns where we cleared faster than that with the building completely on the ground...
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Who cares what would have been heard? That pales in comparison to private propery rights and private contractual agreements, or lack thereof.
    So I guess -RM should have just refused to respond -again we are just speculating, but we have responded to large structure fires and wildland fires from 20 plus miles away and arrived to a still active fire.(were they told "mop up duty?) and as to "who cares?" I would rather be bashed for doing something than bashed/sued for doing nothing. And also I personally would care if A the home owner got hurt trying to retrieve some belongings and B if a very valuable possession was damaged beyond saving due to a lack of salvage and overhaul. Again ,I am not defending the subscription system, but defending the agencies that are forced by a terrible system to be put in this spot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Let's take a look at another aspect of this. The house in question appears to be a one story single family of frame construction.

    R/M had one rig on scene for six hours, another for four hours.

    I've been to controlled burns where we cleared faster than that with the building completely on the ground...
    I hope on your controlled burns you weren't searching for grannys bible or what's left of the family dog.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And you are making a HUGE assumption that the homeowner made a CHOICE to not pay for the subscription fee. Frankly, if that is the case, and he made that known, then NO ONE should have responded to the call and let the fire take its course.

    The fact that they did respond and they did work the fire leaves your assumption in doubt.

    Further private property rights do not allow you do engage in an activity that endangers neighboring property or lives. This fire may very well have endangered other structures and people and that may be why the Surprise FD responded initially and then they called RM to overhaul.
    Let's face it. We are ALL making some assumptions here. But I believe the article stated that the homeowner was not a subscriber. So this is not an assumption. The fact that RM responded says nothing about WHY the homeowner didn't subscribe. The why of it IS an assumption. I suggested that it may have been an actual choice vs your assumption that he was just ignorant/uninformed.

    I agree that there is an overall public safety issue that must be addressed. I don't know what kind of agreements, contracts and/or local laws are in effect that dictate who can operate and where they can operate and under what circumstances they can operate. It seems to me that a private for profit company should absolutely be prohibited from making those calls on their own due to the obvious conflict of interest. Otherwise they could show up anytime and anywhere they want and say it was necessary and dropo a bill on the homeowner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    I hope on your controlled burns you weren't searching for grannys bible or what's left of the family dog.
    It may be a nice thing to do but I don't see searching for granny's bible or the remains of the family dog as a core function of the fire service. Especially if someone is going to drop a $20,000 tab on my head for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    It may be a nice thing to do but I don't see searching for granny's bible or the remains of the family dog as a core function of the fire service. Especially if someone is going to drop a $20,000 tab on my head for it.
    Life and property -different core function I guess
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Life and property -different core function I guess
    Protecting life and property from fire (through prevention and suppression)-yes.

    Recovery of property after fire-not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Protecting life and property from fire (through prevention and suppression)-yes.

    Recovery of property after fire-not so much.
    A few years ago we recovered a strongbox during overhaul at the request of the homeowner as they stated it was critically important.

    Turned out it had $30K in cash. Some of the bills were damaged but they were all replaced by the treasury .... So there are times that recovery of property can be very important. And we have had other times where smaller amounts of cash were recovered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    A few years ago we recovered a strongbox during overhaul at the request of the homeowner as they stated it was critically important.

    Turned out it had $30K in cash. Some of the bills were damaged but they were all replaced by the treasury .... So there are times that recovery of property can be very important. And we have had other times where smaller amounts of cash were recovered.
    Been there and done that , but the family bibles, the pictures of the long lost relatives etc. have had far more impact.
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    Photo albums, family heirlooms, and sadly the bodies of deceased pets all have special meaning to the property owners. Truth is it doesn't matter what value we place on them, it is the value the homeowner places on them that matter. I own somethings that were my Dad's, most likely they would mean abolutely nothing to the cassual observer, but they mean everything to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Photo albums, family heirlooms, and sadly the bodies of deceased pets all have special meaning to the property owners. Truth is it doesn't matter what value we place on them, it is the value the homeowner places on them that matter. I own somethings that were my Dad's, most likely they would mean abolutely nothing to the cassual observer, but they mean everything to me.
    When I teach an "intro" class - I try and instill a "don't judge and one mans trash is another mans treasure" in the new guys. We cant always make a stop -but an organized/respectful salvage is making the best of a bad situation. I know personally , I would feel terrible if an elderly person got hurt trying to salvage something after I left. And I know you need to get in service as soon as possible, but their is a happy medium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    When I teach an "intro" class - I try and instill a "don't judge and one mans trash is another mans treasure" in the new guys. We cant always make a stop -but an organized/respectful salvage is making the best of a bad situation. I know personally , I would feel terrible if an elderly person got hurt trying to salvage something after I left. And I know you need to get in service as soon as possible, but their is a happy medium.
    There are professional clean up and salvage companies. Unless they are critical items like keys, wallets, etc. or high value items like a safe, we leave that stuff for them. I definitely ain't dragging out dead animals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    There are professional clean up and salvage companies. Unless they are critical items like keys, wallets, etc. or high value items like a safe, we leave that stuff for them. I definitely ain't dragging out dead animals.
    Guess we are getting off track, but you and me couldn't be further apart ---"high value items like a safe" -Im not saying stay and haul every little thing out, but IN MY OPINION -it is not our place to set a value on an item., in fact unless it is submerged -a safe is actually lower priority than a lot of items . I try and get with the homeowner and locate personal items that time can be a factor in salvaging. And as far as the pets -- is that the policy of your fire department ? If so -I really think your chief should make a public statement to that effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    There are professional clean up and salvage companies. Unless they are critical items like keys, wallets, etc. or high value items like a safe, we leave that stuff for them. I definitely ain't dragging out dead animals.
    I am not asking you to do a damn thing actually. But I can tell you twice I have found dead pets, a cat and a dog, and brought them out, respectfully, covered, and turned them over to the home owner with my sincere condolences. Fortunately, neither was burned and had died of smoke inhalation. In both cases the home owners were grateful for my care and sympathy.

    It's about service, and going that extra step to do the right thing, and if the few minutes it took me to do that are too much bother for you then so be it. I guess we are cut from different cloth.
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    My original point wasn't about whether or not to do salvage. I've certainly been involved in more than a few fires where we made that effort. I'm certainly in favor of it.

    It was about the fact that R/M had one unit on the scene for four hours, and another for six, for a single family dwelling (and that doesn't count the time Surprise was there). Salvage is one thing. Polishing the silver is something entirely different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    My original point wasn't about whether or not to do salvage. I've certainly been involved in more than a few fires where we made that effort. I'm certainly in favor of it.

    It was about the fact that R/M had one unit on the scene for four hours, and another for six, for a single family dwelling (and that doesn't count the time Surprise was there). Salvage is one thing. Polishing the silver is something entirely different.
    That's right.

    Polishing the silver, etc.

    For $20,000.

    For a homeowner who did not subscribe to their service.

    All these stories about bibles and pets, etc. are heartwarming but we're getting way off track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    That's right.

    Polishing the silver, etc.

    For $20,000.

    For a homeowner who did not subscribe to their service.

    All these stories about bibles and pets, etc. are heartwarming but we're getting way off track.
    My comments about personal salvage were in response to trees post saying he spent less time on a controlled burn than that. And I made the point that comparing a controlled burn overhaul to a structure fire is apples to oranges . Again without knowing all the facts , we are guessing, but did that time include travel? securing or transporting a water supply? The previous mentioned and discounted salvage of personal items ? And one more -did they have a true accounting of all the occupants ? -I bet if they missed a body in the rubble there would be far more piling on than there is for them "polishing silver" -- again ,it sounds excessive,but I still don't get so many people wanting to give the home owners a pass. And capjak -Glad my stories "warmed your heart"
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    My comments about personal salvage were in response to trees post saying he spent less time on a controlled burn than that. And I made the point that comparing a controlled burn overhaul to a structure fire is apples to oranges . Again without knowing all the facts , we are guessing, but did that time include travel? securing or transporting a water supply? The previous mentioned and discounted salvage of personal items ? And one more -did they have a true accounting of all the occupants ? -I bet if they missed a body in the rubble there would be far more piling on than there is for them "polishing silver" -- again ,it sounds excessive,but I still don't get so many people wanting to give the home owners a pass. And capjak -Glad my stories "warmed your heart"
    Didn't mean to sound condescending but I guess I did. My bad. Just tried to make my point.

    As far as finding bodies in the rubble and/or accounting for occupants, that is not a function of salvage. If people are unaccounted for or scene has not been searched to complete satisfaction, then salvage does not begin. Fire ops would still be ongoing, searches would still be ongoing and fire should not be placed "under control". This is not splitting hairs; there is a major distinction between salvage and search. IF RM was called for salvage, there should have been no question about missing occupants, bodies in the rubble, etc.

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    Dang -I wrote a long response and the computer ate it. I didn't realize RM was told specifically to respond for overhaul. My point is when there is still a slight doubt as to victims , a final "search" can be part of a systematic salvage/overhaul. Im talking after a secondary search of the "usual" areas has been done. If you are working on a fire that has burned for an extended time , many times if there is a body, they have become "part of the back ground" And it is usually more efficient to perform a 'gentle" systematic overhaul as part of your final "search" This is especially true at night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    There are professional clean up and salvage companies. Unless they are critical items like keys, wallets, etc. or high value items like a safe, we leave that stuff for them. I definitely ain't dragging out dead animals.
    It's called customer service. We dig through the house to find anything that the owner asked us to find that has value to them. We remove their dead pets and have even buried a few over the years. Guess what it doesn't hurt to humble yourselves and go the extra mile for someone that is having the worst day of their life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    That's right.

    Polishing the silver, etc.

    For $20,000.

    For a homeowner who did not subscribe to their service.

    All these stories about bibles and pets, etc. are heartwarming but we're getting way off track.
    What are you the internet police? It's a forum, they tend to go many different directions. Live with it.

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