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Thread: Another pay for spray debacle

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    I didn't realize RM was told specifically to respond for overhaul.
    I think it's still unclear if that's actually the case. The articles I've read were at best ambiguous about exactly what RM's role was at this incident and when they arrived.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I think it's still unclear if that's actually the case. The articles I've read were at best ambiguous about exactly what RM's role was at this incident and when they arrived.
    The public relations guy for RM is quoted in the article in OP's link stating that RM responded after fire was placed under control to provide overhaul and "mop up". Nothing ambiguous about it.

    Members of this forum have pointed out that their dpartments have in the past provided the service of sifting through the rubble for personal possessioins, pet remains, cash, etc. I'm sure the occupants did appreciate that help. This is something that is done after the emergency phase has passed. The question then is whether or not this is a function of a fire department. Each department has to make that policy call for themselves. My department will assist in certain areas such as helping locate medication, very valuable personal property (large amount of cash, jewelery), religious artifacts, etc. Basically things that need to be recovered immediately for medical or security reasons. But it is not our policy to stick around and recover personal property from a fire scene. Getting units back in service is a high priority. I suspect other large urban departments operate similarly. I don't believe it makes us cold-hearted. It has nothing to do with it being too much trouble to do it. It has nothing to do with a lack of humility. It has nothing to do with going the extra mile. It has nothing to do with the cloth we are cut from. Once you've risked your own life protecting the lives and property of others, there IS no extra mile, at least IMHO.
    Also IMHO, some of you could stand to drop the holier than thou attitude.
    I should point out that recovery of personal property after fire is under control, and assuming scene is safe, could easily be done by occupants, neighbors, friends and family. Yes it is hard for the occupants. But that's true regardless of who does "mop up". And to get back to the point of the OP, I still think $20,000 is too much for that particular service. Especially since homeowner declined to subscribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What are you the internet police? It's a forum, they tend to go many different directions. Live with it.
    So, what am I? The first guy to point out a thread that went off track? No one's ever done that before? Ever?

    By telling me to live with it, you are acting more like internet cop than I did!

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    The public relations guy for RM is quoted in the article in OP's link stating that RM responded after fire was placed under control to provide overhaul and "mop up". Nothing ambiguous about it.

    Members of this forum have pointed out that their dpartments have in the past provided the service of sifting through the rubble for personal possessioins, pet remains, cash, etc. I'm sure the occupants did appreciate that help. This is something that is done after the emergency phase has passed. The question then is whether or not this is a function of a fire department. Each department has to make that policy call for themselves. My department will assist in certain areas such as helping locate medication, very valuable personal property (large amount of cash, jewelery), religious artifacts, etc. Basically things that need to be recovered immediately for medical or security reasons. But it is not our policy to stick around and recover personal property from a fire scene. Getting units back in service is a high priority. I suspect other large urban departments operate similarly. I don't believe it makes us cold-hearted. It has nothing to do with it being too much trouble to do it. It has nothing to do with a lack of humility. It has nothing to do with going the extra mile. It has nothing to do with the cloth we are cut from. Once you've risked your own life protecting the lives and property of others, there IS no extra mile, at least IMHO.
    Also IMHO, some of you could stand to drop the holier than thou attitude.
    I should point out that recovery of personal property after fire is under control, and assuming scene is safe, could easily be done by occupants, neighbors, friends and family. Yes it is hard for the occupants. But that's true regardless of who does "mop up". And to get back to the point of the OP, I still think $20,000 is too much for that particular service. Especially since homeowner declined to subscribe.
    See here in lies the problem with some of what you FDNY guys say on here. Out of one side you guys say don't do what we do just because we do it, and out of the other side if we do something different, or something you don't do, you chastise, mock or get condescending about it. Something doesn't jive there. Honestly, I understand we are in different circumstances, but many times my career FD in the Metro Milwaukee area did these things after fires. I removed a deceased pet, I brought lives pets out, I recovered personal possesions for people after fires. It was part of that extra mile we went to provide service to our citizens.

    In the volly world these people are our neighbors and friends so it isn't such a huge step to do these things for them. Most iften it isn't like we are rushing off to another 35 calls that day. If another call did come in we are leaving to respond to it. It isn't that hard to figure out really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    See here in lies the problem with some of what you FDNY guys say on here. Out of one side you guys say don't do what we do just because we do it, and out of the other side if we do something different, or something you don't do, you chastise, mock or get condescending about it. Something doesn't jive there. Honestly, I understand we are in different circumstances, but many times my career FD in the Metro Milwaukee area did these things after fires. I removed a deceased pet, I brought lives pets out, I recovered personal possesions for people after fires. It was part of that extra mile we went to provide service to our citizens.

    In the volly world these people are our neighbors and friends so it isn't such a huge step to do these things for them. Most iften it isn't like we are rushing off to another 35 calls that day. If another call did come in we are leaving to respond to it. It isn't that hard to figure out really.
    I'm calling you out on the FDNY bullspit. I speak for myself and myself only. As for me, I did not chastise, mock, or get condescending about anything except the $20,000 bill that the RM spokesperson admitted was for "mop-up". I took exception to posts such as your own that were holier than thou in that the type of cloth we are cut from came up. Going the extra mile came up with the insinuation that we don't. Being humble enough to help came up as if we have no humility. The idea that it was too much trouble for us came up. It is not too much trouble. We just operate differently.
    Why is it that we have to constantly acknowledge that things are different for many of you but many of you won't give us the same courtesy. I have made it clear over and over again that I don't expect any department to operate like we do (unless they are lucky enough to have the resources that we do).
    Why should anyone chastise me (or the FDNY) for not operating the way that they do in their departments?
    Who is it that's really talking out both sides of their mouth?

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    If I were a homeowner in a pay for spray territory, I'd be putting together a VFD.

    IMO, doing the right thing when someone's house is on fire shouldn't depend on a subscription list.

    I'm a capitalist at heart but the fire service as a for-hire business seems jacked up to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I'm calling you out on the FDNY bullspit. I speak for myself and myself only. As for me, I did not chastise, mock, or get condescending about anything except the $20,000 bill that the RM spokesperson admitted was for "mop-up". I took exception to posts such as your own that were holier than thou in that the type of cloth we are cut from came up. Going the extra mile came up with the insinuation that we don't. Being humble enough to help came up as if we have no humility. The idea that it was too much trouble for us came up. It is not too much trouble. We just operate differently.
    Why is it that we have to constantly acknowledge that things are different for many of you but many of you won't give us the same courtesy. I have made it clear over and over again that I don't expect any department to operate like we do (unless they are lucky enough to have the resources that we do).
    Why should anyone chastise me (or the FDNY) for not operating the way that they do in their departments?
    Who is it that's really talking out both sides of their mouth?
    First of all, my original "Cut from a different cloth" comment wasn't even directed at you, it was directed at johnsb, so the fact that you took afront at it seems kind of funny.

    I have posted more times than you are aware of my respect for the FDNY. The funny part is it is almost like when ever someone question what you do, or says we do something differently than you do, it is like we have personally insulted the Holy Grail. Maybe some of you need to take your own advice and realize that we don't all do what you do just because you do it. There is a great big world outside of the city limits of New York and it is not an insult that we don't all aspire to be the FDNY.

    I am far from holier than thou. I know my limits and I know the limits of my fire departments, including my former career FD. We do not have the total resources on our on duty staff that you can muster for a first alarm. Because we do what we do is not an attack on what you do. The fact that we have time for more detailed customer service after a call speaks of our different environments. Not of us feeling we are better than you.

    Humility is a funny thing. Look at your original posts on here. You came off as an arrogant a z z and more than I called you on it. I have been called arrogant and hostile...well when you are as great as I am then phuck those that don't like me! (Um, incase it wasn't clear that was meant to be humorous)

    Relax a bit, every post isn't directed at you, or an attack on the FDNY.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF-Andy View Post
    If I were a homeowner in a pay for spray territory, I'd be putting together a VFD.

    IMO, doing the right thing when someone's house is on fire shouldn't depend on a subscription list.

    I'm a capitalist at heart but the fire service as a for-hire business seems jacked up to me.
    That would be a great thing, except the funding or the volunteer manpower may not be there, and may never be there.

    The reality that today, it would be very hard to organize, staff and fund a VFD unless the community has some very motivated residents with all the training and administrative demands.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-18-2013 at 05:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    The public relations guy for RM is quoted in the article in OP's link stating that RM responded after fire was placed under control to provide overhaul and "mop up". Nothing ambiguous about it.
    OK, my mistake. I really didn't read the article that the OP linked since I had read other articles about it prior to seeing the thread. What I did read was ambiguous about their role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    First of all, my original "Cut from a different cloth" comment wasn't even directed at you, it was directed at johnsb, so the fact that you took afront at it seems kind of funny.

    I have posted more times than you are aware of my respect for the FDNY. The funny part is it is almost like when ever someone question what you do, or says we do something differently than you do, it is like we have personally insulted the Holy Grail. Maybe some of you need to take your own advice and realize that we don't all do what you do just because you do it. There is a great big world outside of the city limits of New York and it is not an insult that we don't all aspire to be the FDNY.

    I am far from holier than thou. I know my limits and I know the limits of my fire departments, including my former career FD. We do not have the total resources on our on duty staff that you can muster for a first alarm. Because we do what we do is not an attack on what you do. The fact that we have time for more detailed customer service after a call speaks of our different environments. Not of us feeling we are better than you.

    Humility is a funny thing. Look at your original posts on here. You came off as an arrogant a z z and more than I called you on it. I have been called arrogant and hostile...well when you are as great as I am then phuck those that don't like me! (Um, incase it wasn't clear that was meant to be humorous)

    Relax a bit, every post isn't directed at you, or an attack on the FDNY.
    That's right, the post was aimed at johnsb. A post in which you condemned him and his department as not going as far in customer service as you and your department do. Hence, the "cut from different cloth" putdown. I guess you are allowed to comment on other departments' policies and procedures but FDNY can't?

    By the way, I'm not paranoid. You directly referenced us FDNY guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    That's right, the post was aimed at johnsb. A post in which you condemned him and his department as not going as far in customer service as you and your department do. Hence, the "cut from different cloth" putdown. I guess you are allowed to comment on other departments' policies and procedures but FDNY can't?

    By the way, I'm not paranoid. You directly referenced us FDNY guys.
    Here is my original response to johnsb, directly quoted from right here on FH.com.

    I am not asking you to do a damn thing actually. But I can tell you twice I have found dead pets, a cat and a dog, and brought them out, respectfully, covered, and turned them over to the home owner with my sincere condolences. Fortunately, neither was burned and had died of smoke inhalation. In both cases the home owners were grateful for my care and sympathy.

    It's about service, and going that extra step to do the right thing, and if the few minutes it took me to do that are too much bother for you then so be it. I guess we are cut from different cloth.
    I was wondering if you could show me where I mentioned the FDNY here. I mentioned the FDNY in a later post after you pi ss ed all over yourself about what I said to someone else.

    Honestly, I don't care what your policies are, or your procedures, or anything else for that matter. I care what ours are and how we make them work for us. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know what works for us and some extra customer service is one thing that does.

    You have a huge chip on your shoulder and taking it out on me is an act of futility on your part.
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    I'm a firm believer in municipal departments. The whole private fire companies idea seems like a really bad one to me. Bargain hunting for fire protection isn't smart. And what level of training do you get with a private company?

    As for the seemingly high bill, I have never seen what my department, or any other for that matter, charges for a response. $150/truck per hour doesn't seem unreasonable. However, to charge that much for labor....you better take the bottom line figure and spread it between 20 firefighters.

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    As for retrieving items from a burned home for the occupants, I think that is a great service. The occupant is having the worst day of their life, by losing their home. They get some consolation, by having some important items retrieved.

    You also do not want the occupants going into the structure themselves, to recover items, as they could hamper a fire cause investigation, as well as be subject to injury.

    If your FD does not retrieve items, there is probably a reason, like getting the trucks back into service for the next call. If you do retrieve items, that is great. Let's not beat each up over it. Each department does things somewhat different.
    Last edited by FIRE117; 11-19-2013 at 02:42 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Here is my original response to johnsb, directly quoted from right here on FH.com.



    I was wondering if you could show me where I mentioned the FDNY here. I mentioned the FDNY in a later post after you pi ss ed all over yourself about what I said to someone else.

    Honestly, I don't care what your policies are, or your procedures, or anything else for that matter. I care what ours are and how we make them work for us. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know what works for us and some extra customer service is one thing that does.

    You have a huge chip on your shoulder and taking it out on me is an act of futility on your part.
    So we can all agree that you did indeed put down johnsb and/or his department's policies? I certainly believe you did. You have not denied it.

    You did reference FDNY in a subsequent post. That's what I responded to. What's the difference which post it was in? It was in this thread. I pointed out what I feel is your hypocracy in telling FDNY guys they should not tell other guys or departments what to do or how to do it. Yet you do this constantly. No one on this forum is in your league when it comes to challenges, put downs, call outs, condemnations, etc. But you have a pretty thin skin when it comes to someone calling you out.

    I have no chip on my shoulder. I have not ****ed myself.

    I'm not taking anything out on you. I'm challenging some of your statements and positions. And yes it may be an act of futility to expect you to admit to your own statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    So we can all agree that you did indeed put down johnsb and/or his department's policies? I certainly believe you did. You have not denied it.

    You did reference FDNY in a subsequent post. That's what I responded to. What's the difference which post it was in? It was in this thread. I pointed out what I feel is your hypocracy in telling FDNY guys they should not tell other guys or departments what to do or how to do it. Yet you do this constantly. No one on this forum is in your league when it comes to challenges, put downs, call outs, condemnations, etc. But you have a pretty thin skin when it comes to someone calling you out.

    I have no chip on my shoulder. I have not ****ed myself.

    I'm not taking anything out on you. I'm challenging some of your statements and positions. And yes it may be an act of futility to expect you to admit to your own statements.
    Golly, considering the way you kicked the door in when you came in here originally and were a complete a z z hat and got called on it by several people, you telling me I am a bad guy is pretty hysterical.

    Once again, and I'll type slower this time so maybe you can comprehend it, I NEVER mentioned the FDNY until you went all menopausal on me about something I said to someone else. I guess I didn't know johnsb was an FDNY firefighter too. He must be, right? For you to get all bent about what I said to HIM, not you.

    It seems like you have chip on your shoulder and anything that you can construe as an insult towards the FDNY, no matter how far you have to reach or stretch what was really said, is a reason for you to go all indignant. While I respect the FDNY, and it is interesting to watch what you guys do, I don't want to be you, or emulate you, or your department. Which amazingly, follows the advice of some of your fellow FDNY firefighters right here on FH.com.

    Try to calm down, I fear you are on your way to stroking out if you don't.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-19-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Golly, considering the way you kicked the door in when you came in here originally and were a complete a z z hat and got called on it by several people, you telling me I am a bad guy is pretty hysterical.

    Once again, and I'll type slower this time so maybe you can comprehend it, I NEVER mentioned the FDNY until you went all menopausal on me about something I said to someone else. I guess I didn't know johnsb was an FDNY firefighter too. He must be, right? For you to get all bent about what I said to HIM, not you.

    It seems like you have chip on your shoulder and anything that you can construe as an insult towards the FDNY, no matter how far you have to reach or stretch what was really said, is a reason for you to go all indignant. While I respect the FDNY, and it is interesting to watch what you guys do, I don't want to be you, or emulate you, or your department. Which amazingly, follows the advice of some of your fellow FDNY firefighters right here on FH.com.

    Try to calm down, I fear you are on your way to stroking out if you don't.
    So you've never chimed in and commented on a post aimed at someone else? Really? Is that the story you're sticking with? I think the members of this forum can decide for themselves what level of BS that rises to.

    And where did I call you a BAD guy?

    You've mentioned the FDNY way more times than I ever have. Who's really got the chip on their shoulder? I held off on even stating what department I work with for a long time after joining this site. One of the reasons was that I did not want guys such as yourself making assumptions about me or my statements, or lumping me in with THEIR perceived notions of the FDNY. There are about 14,000 uniformed members and I don't speak for them, nor them for me. The few times I've defended my department and/or it's policies I did not need to reach or stretch whatsoever, because it was brought up by someone else.

    I got called out by several people when I started here. Lots of putdowns, accusations, name calling etc. I was called a pretender, a wannabe, a troll, a fake, a know nothing johnnie and some other choice names. Some of which I've never even heard before. Since I'm a 27 year FDNY member and a chief officer who works in one of the busiest parts of NYC, I guess those were all inaccurate. So now if we disagree, or I call you out on something the way you so quickly do to others, a new set of insults is needed. Now I'm thin-skinned and over protective of the FDNY. But like I pointed out earlier, I rarely mention the FDNY by name. Maybe you should work on some more new insults, which will probably turn out to be inaccurate as well.

    You should go back to some of our old back and forths. You'll see there were some who defended me and pointed out that you were out of line in some of your attacks. No name calling or putdowns, just noting what they saw in front of them. The chorus who joined in behind you never really rebutted a point I made. Most of them just bhey just belittled me and called me names.

    I'll leave it to the other members of this forum to decide for themselves which one of us more often does any of the following:

    Going menopausal
    Needing to calm down
    Getting indignant
    Getting "bent"
    Being ready to stroke out
    Having a chip on his shoulder

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That would be a great thing, except the funding or the volunteer manpower may not be there, and may never be there.

    The reality that today, it would be very hard to organize, staff and fund a VFD unless the community has some very motivated residents with all the training and administrative demands.

    I don't think it would be hard to do if there was a need, particularly after a loss like this....... The Training and Administrative stuff may or may not be important. I can tell you that if I found myself in a situation like this, I'd be finding a piece of apparatus and a few friends and start going at it. I will also tell you that NFPA can stuff it in a case like this.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    So you've never chimed in and commented on a post aimed at someone else? Really? Is that the story you're sticking with? I think the members of this forum can decide for themselves what level of BS that rises to.

    And where did I call you a BAD guy?

    You've mentioned the FDNY way more times than I ever have. Who's really got the chip on their shoulder? I held off on even stating what department I work with for a long time after joining this site. One of the reasons was that I did not want guys such as yourself making assumptions about me or my statements, or lumping me in with THEIR perceived notions of the FDNY. There are about 14,000 uniformed members and I don't speak for them, nor them for me. The few times I've defended my department and/or it's policies I did not need to reach or stretch whatsoever, because it was brought up by someone else.

    I got called out by several people when I started here. Lots of putdowns, accusations, name calling etc. I was called a pretender, a wannabe, a troll, a fake, a know nothing johnnie and some other choice names. Some of which I've never even heard before. Since I'm a 27 year FDNY member and a chief officer who works in one of the busiest parts of NYC, I guess those were all inaccurate. So now if we disagree, or I call you out on something the way you so quickly do to others, a new set of insults is needed. Now I'm thin-skinned and over protective of the FDNY. But like I pointed out earlier, I rarely mention the FDNY by name. Maybe you should work on some more new insults, which will probably turn out to be inaccurate as well.

    You should go back to some of our old back and forths. You'll see there were some who defended me and pointed out that you were out of line in some of your attacks. No name calling or putdowns, just noting what they saw in front of them. The chorus who joined in behind you never really rebutted a point I made. Most of them just bhey just belittled me and called me names.

    I'll leave it to the other members of this forum to decide for themselves which one of us more often does any of the following:

    Going menopausal
    Needing to calm down
    Getting indignant
    Getting "bent"
    Being ready to stroke out
    Having a chip on his shoulder
    And yet, despite proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the comment that has you all worked up wasn't even directed at you, or your department, you are still going on and on about it.

    Chief officer huh? I'm impressed. Congratulations for working your way up the ranks of the FDNY.

    Have a nice night.

    By the way, I'm done with this. It rests on your shoulders whether you wish to continue this or let it go.
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    You didn't need to prove who the comment was directed at. That was never an issue. You just did that to deflect from the real issue which was your hypocracy as pointed out earlier. You've never defended the comment itself which was a condescending remark toward another member. Which you are entirely entitled to make. But you then call out others (such as any FDNY guy) as soon as they do the same thing. You can't have it both ways and still be taken seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I don't think it would be hard to do if there was a need, particularly after a loss like this....... The Training and Administrative stuff may or may not be important. I can tell you that if I found myself in a situation like this, I'd be finding a piece of apparatus and a few friends and start going at it. I will also tell you that NFPA can stuff it in a case like this.....
    Sure, they could get "an apparatus" though likely it's going to be older and may have some significant issues, and probably peacemeal together some PPE, SCBA and other basic equipment.

    And probably find somebody to give them some very basic training.

    But how effective, and more importantly, how safe would they be?

    And how many members of this forum would tear them apart if a video surfaced of them fighting a fire with a peace meal apparatus with peace meal equipment, peace meal PPE and piecemeal training?

    Sure it would be great if they could get enough folks involved to actually be able to perform effective firefighting operations. It would be fantastic if they could get enough folks to come aboard financially so that they could buy a safe, reliable piece of equipment properly stocked with enough tools to do the job as well as purchase safe, basic PPE and SCBA.

    But given some assumptions that I have about the communities' concern regarding fire protection and their funding of fire protection to this point, I going to go out on a limb and say that's probably not going to happen
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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