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Thread: Another pay for spray debacle

  1. #121
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But how effective, and more importantly, how safe would they be?
    If they save my house from burning down, they were effective.

    Safe? Maybe not, but odds are they're going to be an "outside" department anyhow, at least at the start.

    Still, fire protection is generally considered to be a municipal responsibility - the idea that a bunch of individuals should have to band together simply shouldn't be a consideration. Let 'em form a fire district, or whatever it takes to make everyone covered responsible for fire protection, not just those who decide they want to participate.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Start up fire departments usually start with modest hand me down trucks and equipment. That equipment is usually donated by other fire departments. As for training, there may be state firefighter training association, adjoining fire departments or even retired firefighters that may help with training.

    They have to start somwhere. Most fire departments in this country either started with buckets, hand pulled equipment or even horse pulled apparatus. You have to start out somehow.

    In my opinion, their best option would be to annex into an adjoining fire district and start a substation in their local neighborhood. This would enable them to have a "main" fire department respond to their fires, at the same time, the substation they run would be responding, too. The main station of their district could give them hand me down equipment, allow them to attend training and mentor them.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIRE117 View Post
    Start up fire departments usually start with modest hand me down trucks and equipment. That equipment is usually donated by other fire departments. As for training, there may be state firefighter training association, adjoining fire departments or even retired firefighters that may help with training.

    They have to start somwhere. Most fire departments in this country either started with buckets, hand pulled equipment or even horse pulled apparatus. You have to start out somehow.

    In my opinion, their best option would be to annex into an adjoining fire district and start a substation in their local neighborhood. This would enable them to have a "main" fire department respond to their fires, at the same time, the substation they run would be responding, too. The main station of their district could give them hand me down equipment, allow them to attend training and mentor them.
    Agreed, but that still requires that they convince a majority of the voters to pony up for fire protection, and seemingly based on history, that may not happen.

    Again, we are dealing with the "what are the chances that it will happen to me" mentality. We battle the same battle in prevention when it comes to convincing folks that their house could catch fire. Unless you can convince them that it's a strong possibility, they won't buy in.

    Below is the Health belief Model. While it was designed as a guide for injury and illness prevention, it can be applied to fire prevention, or even when attempting to convince folks that they need a fire department. Basically unless somebody buys in to all of the elements, there is a good chance that they won't buy into what you are trying to convince them of.

    Perceived susceptibility (an individual's assessment of their risk of getting the condition). The greater the risk is of getting a certain medical condition, the more a person will engage in behaviors to decrease the risk. That's why people get vaccinations to prevent disease, brush their teeth to prevent gum disease, and workout to stay healthy.

    Perceived severity (an individual's assessment of the seriousness of the condition, and its potential consequences). For example, getting the flu seems like a fairly minor thing for most people, just bed rest for a few days and you're all better. However, for people who can't afford to take a few days off work, or for people who already have an underlying medical condition, getting the flu could be a very serious thing. Individual differences influence the perceived severity and varies greatly between people.

    Perceived barriers (an individual's assessment of the influences that facilitate or discourage adoption of the promoted behaviour). Perceived barriers is someone's own thoughts about the obstacles in the way of adopting a new behavior, and also the consequences of continuing an old behavior. The perceived barriers are the most influential construct because they determine if someone will adopt a new behavior or not, depending on if the benefits of the behavior outweigh the consequences.

    Perceived benefits (an individual's assessment of the positive consequences of adopting the behaviour). It's why people eat fruits and vegetables, use sunscreen, or get health screenings. Perceived benefits is opinion based, not everyone adopts the same behaviors. You only adopt behaviors that you think will decrease the chance of getting a disease that you think you are more susceptible to.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    If they save my house from burning down, they were effective.

    Safe? Maybe not, but odds are they're going to be an "outside" department anyhow, at least at the start.

    Still, fire protection is generally considered to be a municipal responsibility - the idea that a bunch of individuals should have to band together simply shouldn't be a consideration. Let 'em form a fire district, or whatever it takes to make everyone covered responsible for fire protection, not just those who decide they want to participate.
    Which is why they may have built outside of the municipality..... No municipal taxes and regulations. It's sorta like people live in the more rural parts of the parishes here.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sure, they could get "an apparatus" though likely it's going to be older and may have some significant issues, and probably peacemeal together some PPE, SCBA and other basic equipment.

    And probably find somebody to give them some very basic training.

    But how effective, and more importantly, how safe would they be?

    And how many members of this forum would tear them apart if a video surfaced of them fighting a fire with a peace meal apparatus with peace meal equipment, peace meal PPE and piecemeal training?

    Sure it would be great if they could get enough folks involved to actually be able to perform effective firefighting operations. It would be fantastic if they could get enough folks to come aboard financially so that they could buy a safe, reliable piece of equipment properly stocked with enough tools to do the job as well as purchase safe, basic PPE and SCBA.

    But given some assumptions that I have about the communities' concern regarding fire protection and their funding of fire protection to this point, I going to go out on a limb and say that's probably not going to happen
    I would guess that is the way just about every fire department started. Someone or several someone's saw a need for fire protection, started with pretty much nothing and built themselves up to where they are today.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I would guess that is the way just about every fire department started. Someone or several someone's saw a need for fire protection, started with pretty much nothing and built themselves up to where they are today.
    I agree, but it's much more complicated today with regulations covering just about every single aspect of a fire departments operations.

    I think the toughest thing today is that in the past, much of the population would contribute to or at least support the department through taxes, without much complaint for the good of the community as a whole. You honestly see very little of that today, and that IMO, is the biggest challenge of any start up fire department or district.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I agree, but it's much more complicated today with regulations covering just about every single aspect of a fire departments operations.

    Are you kidding me with this statement by you? Heck man your combination FD violates FEDERAL LAW every single time you force, and you do force them, your paid guys to volunteer back without pay. Your blatant disregard for training standards set by the NFPA and other agencies makes your entire statement about as hypocritical as you have ever been.

    I think the toughest thing today is that in the past, much of the population would contribute to or at least support the department through taxes, without much complaint for the good of the community as a whole. You honestly see very little of that today, and that IMO, is the biggest challenge of any start up fire department or district.

    Frankly, anyone stupid enough not to explore the fire protection, ems delivery, and police protection of where they intend to live before moving there gets no sympathy from me. I am so tired of hearing the citizens won't pay the taxes for a fire department. BS. If it is part of the tax bill they will pay it. Fire protection is one of the primary public services that need to be provided. Time for the fire service to stop being both a chump and the barely thought of red headed step child. Further if the community as you say won't support or fund the FD, SHUT IT DOWN! I have no responsibility to serve a citizenry that cares so little about the fire department, and me as a firefighter, that they expect me to protect them with inadequate training, equipment and funding. You can call me a mercenary, or any other name you wish, but the truth is the cops don't fundraise for guns, bullets and squad cars, the DPW doesn't fund raise for trucks and equipment, so why should we suffer along doing it and having old junk for equipment? Sorry everything other than funding fire protection is a feeble excuse.
    Just more of the same old tired rhetoric from you LA.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

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  8. #128
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    Are you kidding me with this statement by you? Heck man your combination FD violates FEDERAL LAW every single time you force, and you do force them, your paid guys to volunteer back without pay. Your blatant disregard for training standards set by the NFPA and other agencies makes your entire statement about as hypocritical as you have ever been.

    My statement had nothing to do with my FD.

    Was simply referring to the fact that in the past a new department could pick up a used engine, some used SCBA and some used gear without worry6ing about compliance, and the donating department didn't have to worry about liability and being sued down the line if the donated equipment failed. members didn't have to have FFI in some states. Insurance requirements were not as tight and insurance was not so ungodly expensive.

    The fact is that that all this regulation and standards have made starting an FD difficult.

    And once again, LA has no minimum training standards so not requiring FFI for our members is not in voliation of any requirement.



    Frankly, anyone stupid enough not to explore the fire protection, ems delivery, and police protection of where they intend to live before moving there gets no sympathy from me. I am so tired of hearing the citizens won't pay the taxes for a fire department. BS. If it is part of the tax bill they will pay it.

    The trick is these folks probably live where they live so they can avoid paying very much in taxes. There are folks that move out into the rural areas and continue to live in a rural area because the taxes are low, and that is exactly what they want. many to most of them are fully aware of the limited services but have no issues in rolling the dice that they will never need fire. LE or EMS.

    And I agree .... If the time comes that they need these services they get what they pay for and have no right to complain.


    Fire protection is one of the primary public services that need to be provided.

    If the community decides as such. In the end, they are the ones that make the choice. If they vote it down, that is the communities' choice.

    Time for the fire service to stop being both a chump and the barely thought of red headed step child. Further if the community as you say won't support or fund the FD, SHUT IT DOWN! I have no responsibility to serve a citizenry that cares so little about the fire department, and me as a firefighter, that they expect me to protect them with inadequate training, equipment and funding. You can call me a mercenary, or any other name you wish, but the truth is the cops don't fundraise for guns, bullets and squad cars, the DPW doesn't fund raise for trucks and equipment, so why should we suffer along doing it and having old junk for equipment? Sorry everything other than funding fire protection is a feeble excuse.

    Agree.

    We provide the level of service they pay for.

    I would likely not leave if the funding to my VFD was reduced but I would tell the Chief my the amount of risk that I take will reflect what support the community is willing to provide.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #129
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    If that community wanted to get a volunteer fire department going, they would probably start out, with a pumper. I doubt there are any hydrants for a fire protection water supply, so a minimum of a 1,000 gallon water tank would be needed.

    Even if this newly organized volunteer fire department cannot make interior entry to structures, they still can do some good by: 1) Extinguishing small fires (initial attack) before they become bigger. 2) Attempt to keep a freeburning structure fire in check, until another FD arrives. 3) Protect exposures, such as adjoining structures and vegetation, from becoming involved. 4) Protect any trapped occupants in a vehicle crash from a fire, until an extrication team arrives, etc..

    If they can keep the FD going and keep honing their training, they can later add a water truck and other apparatus.

    Its their community. Its up to themselves to help themselves.

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