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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    In regards to my upcoming promotion???!!!??? to asst. training officer, I have a few more questions. Is it a reasonable idea to train the guys that want train and leave the dead weight behind? A lot of training officers would beat their head into the wall trying to get everyone to train. I have a few new guys and some others that are well motivated, as well as others that could care less and only achieve the 30 hour minimum. I figure the other guys will either see that they are being left behind and participate or fade away and quit. I cant raise the training standard(not enough votes) but I should be able to get the guys some extra training. What do you guys think? Good idea or am I setting myself up for failure?
    I applaud your effort man. I have a friend that is trying to lead the way on culture change at his hall and he spends a lot of time pulling his hair out....but he IS making some progress one firefighter at a time.

    Have you ever read "Winning" by Jack Welch, former CEO of GE? He talks about the 20/70/10 rule. 20% of people are high achievers and will not need anything to motivate them to train. The bottom 10% are losers that need culled. Spend your time training up the middle 70% because that's the demographic where gains can be made.

    "Lead by example" has been a USMC mantra for years.

    Attaboy Conrad!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    CJ, the biggest impediment to what you propose will be the VFD's. We see that opposition on these boards.
    I'd put my POC dept. up against most any smaller career dept. 8 of the "volunteers" have FFII, about 6 have FFI, 3 of us are Journeymen FF's. 1 has an Associate's Degree in Fire Science, and 3 of us just about have the credits for the degree. The rest (about 10) have the minimum 36 hour class required by Ohio, but have had the equivilant training of FFI or more, they just don't have a piece of paper with that cert. We average 4-6 hours of training a month, mostly done by a certified instructor. It takes over 20 hours of training and driving before a firefighter works their way through qualification to drive all the trucks on a run. We run automatic aid with 3 bordering Career Dept's because they respect our capability, dedication, and knowledge.
    Your blanket statements are just pure bunk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I'd put my POC dept. up against most any smaller career dept. 8 of the "volunteers" have FFII, about 6 have FFI, 3 of us are Journeymen FF's. 1 has an Associate's Degree in Fire Science, and 3 of us just about have the credits for the degree. The rest (about 10) have the minimum 36 hour class required by Ohio, but have had the equivilant training of FFI or more, they just don't have a piece of paper with that cert. We average 4-6 hours of training a month, mostly done by a certified instructor. It takes over 20 hours of training and driving before a firefighter works their way through qualification to drive all the trucks on a run. We run automatic aid with 3 bordering Career Dept's because they respect our capability, dedication, and knowledge.
    Your blanket statements are just pure bunk.
    Take a look at LAFE's remarks. Direct your comments to him. Your VFD sounds more like an aberration than the norm.
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    I think it would be more helpful for VFD's if you were allowed to obtain your FFI & II over a longer period of time. Ohio requires a minimum 36 hour course to be a volunteer, but it would be nice if you could get credit for weekly training (on specific topics) to get your FFI & II. I think 18 months for both certs would be reasonable. I certainly think FFI should be a minimum standard after 2 years for a Voluteer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Take a look at LAFE's remarks. Direct your comments to him. Your VFD sounds more like an aberration than the norm.
    LA does NOT represent the bulk of VFD's.
    While my VFD IS above average, there are many like it or close.

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    In Ark you can request an instructor from the state fire academy to teach a weekend class (12 to 16 hours)
    For no charge -most classes they will come to your station. We have a top notch yet under utilized state fire training academy. Ark passed an act years ago that helps fund fire departments in the state. One of the stipulations was that your firefighter must attend 24 hours a year of state certified training, after much whining , it has been dumbed down to 16 with many trying to cut it more. Sad -
    ?

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    Delivery methods, standards and sorting the must have from the nice to know.

    Maybe even more important than setting some minimum standards is finding delivery methods that work on a volunteer schedule. Not reducing hours for volunteers, just making sure it is more accommodating to them. It takes effort at the state level though, travelling class rooms, barracks at centralized training facilities (so the students from out of the area have somewhere to stay) and weird hours so dedicated volunteers who don't have dedicated employers can still get training. Bankers hours work great for career guys, but not so much for volunteers.

    Personally I'd be all for utilizing unemployment to let volunteers get in a block of time to attend training. It gets used for far less useful things than training a firefighter. Obviously this has room for abuse, but what doesn't.

    As far as standards, I agree all firefighters should be trained to the same level on standard functions. I think there needs to be some focus on just what is critical, what is nice to know and what needs to be all alone in its own class.

    I used to be involved with an 80 hour volunteer academy that met Proboard standards for FF1. It was a good introduction, but I found it very frustrating because instead of focusing on the most critical skills it just touched on a little of everything. 4 hours on salvage, 4 hours on auto extrication, 2 hours on knots, 4 hours on wildland. All these little nice to know things ate up time for teaching the stuff that will make them effective beginning firefighters. Salvage is nice, and saving property is good but lacking good salvage technique is unlikely to get someone killed. Another 4 hours on ladders would be a good trade. Auto extrication is also an important skill but 4 hours is just enough to get you hurt, auto extrication deserves its own stand alone training and for a department that only does fire, a completely unnecessary skill. Wildland same thing, 4 hours in a structure fire focused class is not going to teach you anymore than 4 hours at drill back home, and if wildland isn't a service delivered another waste of time that could have gone towards real structure fire basics.

    The entire training system in most states is based on the needs of the career fire departments. As simple as FF1 & 2, why. Why not FF1-10?

    If you want buy in from the VFDs some concessions should be made to accommodate them. Segregating into paid and volunteer certs is only a solution for ensuring compliance at the very lowest levels (80 hours for a volunteer, 240+ for career in my state). Some states don't even make that much effort leaving it to the individual department to decide when somebody is trained enough.
    Last edited by Here and there; 11-18-2013 at 11:39 PM.

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    The Department of Fire Services/Massachusetts Fire Academy has the Firefighter Recruit training program for the career firefighters and the Call/Volunteer program for those firefighters.

    Programs are taught by firefighters and officers from both sides of the proverbial "fence", and both programs allow the recruits and the call/volunteer to take the FF 1-2 certifcation exam. The differnce is the timeframe.

    The Recruit program is 9 weeks (it used to be 12, it was revamped) the Call/Volunteer program is 6 months (2 nights a week, every other weekend).

    The Call /Volunteer program classes are done regionally, with the burn days done the Academy's facility in Stow, MA for the eastern part of the state, in Springfield at the Springfield FD's facility for the western part of the state.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    NJ FF1 is running, I believe, about 110 hours now. Must be completed within 1 year.

    Its interesting seeing everyone's thoughts/feelings on this topic.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Unfortunately this thread is essentially a volunteer vs paid discussion, which has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten again.
    NO IT ISN'T. Not in any way is this a paid versus volunteer discussion.

    It is a dedication issue, it is a "We are just as good as them" with absolutely no desire to be that good.

    Why is it in my area the majority of volunteer firefighters are certified to a minimum of FF1? Many to FF2, some to Driver Operator, Officer 1, and even Instructor 1. How can this be? It goes against the very grain of responses here. Many VFDs require some level of certification.

    The truth is other than my IFSAC certifications that I earned while a civilian CFR firefighter for the WiANG, every other cert I have I earned as a volunteer on my own time and my own dime. I wanted it bad enough to make it work. THAT seperates me from the wannabe crowd. To me it is entirely a level of dedication that simply isn't met by all volunteers. I will never understand why anyone would put their life on the line with little or no training while claiming to be a firefighter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My opinions on this topic are well known.

    And in my opinion they are ludicrous and wrong.

    I oppose statewide minimum training standards for volunteers. I have no issues with departments setting their own reasonable minimum standards which should be based on local conditions.

    The problem is many VFDs will set no standard, or one so low that being vertical, and breathing, qualify them for line firefighting duty.

    Volunteers should never be held to the same standards are career members.

    I believe that until you can prove to me that fires, auto extrications, rescues, and any other emergency calls, somehow know they are in volunteer fire department served areas and for that reason are somehow less dangerous than those in areas served by career departments your position is completely indefensible.

    I have stated my reasons numerous times in the past for all three beliefs.

    Your beliefs are counter to common sense.
    National or state standards for firefighters are for OUR own good as well as for the safety of the citizens we serve.
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    Do we all need the same certifications? Do we all fight the same types of fires? Same capabilities? Same equipment?

    Our last major working structure fire for my department was a cotton gin (suspected arson) in 2004. Very rural area without a lot of houses. Mostly ranching country with oil and gas production. So most of our fires are oilfield fires or wildfires. One generally leads to the other. As a result, most of our training is centered around those two types of fires. And it is training we do with our equipment. The senior members with the experience train the younger members without.
    Last edited by WVFD705; 11-19-2013 at 02:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    Do we all need the same certifications? Do we all fight the same types of fires? Same capabilities? Same equipment?

    Our last major working structure fire for my department was a cotton gin (suspected arson) in 2004. Very rural area without a lot of houses. Mostly ranching country with oil and gas production. So most of our fires are oilfield fires or wildfires. One generally leads to the other. As a result, most of our training is centered around those two types of fires. And it is training we do with our equipment. The senior members with the experience train the younger members without.
    Look, if that is what works for you fine. My problem is entirely the absolute NONSENSE of volunteers with not even close to any level of certification, or even any serious inhouse training, claiming loudly that they are every bit as good as career firefighters. It simply isn't true and it casts a shadow of doubt on all the hardworking dedicated volunteers that give it all it takes to be that good.
    FireMedic049 likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I think it would be more helpful for VFD's if you were allowed to obtain your FFI & II over a longer period of time. Ohio requires a minimum 36 hour course to be a volunteer, but it would be nice if you could get credit for weekly training (on specific topics) to get your FFI & II. I think 18 months for both certs would be reasonable. I certainly think FFI should be a minimum standard after 2 years for a Voluteer.
    In LA, you can challenge any certification test at any time so there is no requirement to take the class. If you pick up the skills and cognitive knowledge during department training or via self-study, that's fine. That way somebody does not have to take a particular class to be certified. They can learn the material through alternative methods and can be certified as long as they can meet the cognitive and manipulative requirements through testing.

    Most of the members on both my volunteer and combination departments have taken and passed FFI and FFII using simply department-level training. We have taught a couple of FFI classes within the past few years, but these are not common due primarily to work schedules and such.

    I completely disagree that certification should be mandatory for volunteers, unless the department has chosen to implement that requirement.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-19-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Look, if that is what works for you fine. My problem is entirely the absolute NONSENSE of volunteers with not even close to any level of certification, or even any serious inhouse training, claiming loudly that they are every bit as good as career firefighters. It simply isn't true and it casts a shadow of doubt on all the hardworking dedicated volunteers that give it all it takes to be that good.
    I absolutely agree that members should not be operating without adequate training for the hazards posed by their response areas. And I agree that department-level training should be meet all of the district's needs, planned, scheduled and delivered on a regular basis, and members should be required to meet specified training attendance requirements of at least 75%.

    I have never stated otherwise.

    And I have absolutely no issues with members being required to meet in-house cognitive and manipulative requirements.

    Where we disagree is on the need for certification.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-19-2013 at 10:41 AM.
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    My wife's home town of Fairlie, New Zealand is covered by a volunteer fire brigade. The big town of Timaru to the west is covered by a paid department. Both volunteer and career departments are part of the New Zealand Fire Service which means that all fire departments are part of the same Federal outfit. Everyone is subject to the same rules.
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    So a guy in one state can take a 36 hour course and be certified in his state as a Firefighter. A guy in another state has to go through FF1 and FF2 before being certified as a Firefighter in that state.

    They are both Firefighters according to their state.

    They meet in a bar and start talking...both proclaim to be Firefighters.

    Are they equals? Should they both be called Firefighters? Is the true problem here the word "Firefighter" and it being too generic a term? For example...."college graduate". Was that a 2 year college, 4 year college, community college, technical college, etc. Are all college graduates equal?


    Firefighter =

    A) someone that fights fires
    B) someone certified to fight fires (what level of cert?)
    C) member of a fire department
    D) someone that rides an ambulance that belongs to a fire department
    E) someone that fights forest fires
    F) ?????


    I agree with there being a minimum certification. In my situation, statewide works. I don't see a National certification working (WVFD above) shows a good example of why.


    Good discussions here guys....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Aren't the up coming ISO changes going to make quite a difference?
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Aren't the up coming ISO changes going to make quite a difference?
    What are the changes to the training requirements?

    I went to the ISO website and found an article on upcoming changes, but it makes no mention of changes to the training requirements.

    http://www.isomitigation.com/communi...e-revised.html

    We are not an ISO state, so any changes will not affect us right away, but as a rule, our rating organization will adopt changes to ISO within a year or two.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-19-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    LA does NOT represent the bulk of VFD's.
    While my VFD IS above average, there are many like it or close.
    I can honestly say the "vollies" in my old dept. sound a lot more like LAFE's than yours.

    They only showed up to the meetings to hang out and get out of the house for a couple hours. There was rarely if ever any training done. When myself or any of the other career captains would ask them if they were going to go anything fire related they would immediately complain to the BC or DC level that we were harrassing them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I think it would be more helpful for VFD's if you were allowed to obtain your FFI & II over a longer period of time.
    OK, but to what extent will that person be participating in calls until that certification is obtained?

    If they are standing on the proverbial "sidelines" during that time period, then take all the time you want. However, if the department intends to use them in all aspects of response to incidents while working towards certification, then I see no reason to extend any time requirements as it's obvious that the department isn't worried about certification compliance.

    I certainly think FFI should be a minimum standard after 2 years for a Voluteer.
    It's entirely possible and reasonable for it to be obtained within one year.

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    Another big factor where I volunteer is the "its never gonna happen to us" mindset. We mutual aid out as the fast truck maybe one to three times a month but rarely (maybe 1-3 times a year if even) do we have a first due fire.

    Is a situation likely to occur that I need to put a roof rope into operation? No probably not. But does that mean we shouldn't be well versed in the evolution should the situation present itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    OK, but to what extent will that person be participating in calls until that certification is obtained?

    If they are standing on the proverbial "sidelines" during that time period, then take all the time you want. However, if the department intends to use them in all aspects of response to incidents while working towards certification, then I see no reason to extend any time requirements as it's obvious that the department isn't worried about certification compliance.

    So they have to go through 130 hours of training (see below) before they can participate? Reasonable? No.

    It's entirely possible and reasonable for it to be obtained within one year.
    So let's talk numbers .....

    Awareness- 12 Hours. Operations-24 Hours. FFI - At least 90 Hours. CPR - 8 Hours. Basic First Aid (As required by FFI) - 24 Hours. ICS 700/800/100/200 - 6-8 Hours. Department level training - ????

    Reasonable? No.

    My previous VFD covered the basics quite well in less than 60 hours, including CPR and ICS and allowed new members to operate quite safely under supervision on the fireground. Reasonable? Yes.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Another big factor where I volunteer is the "its never gonna happen to us" mindset. We mutual aid out as the fast truck maybe one to three times a month but rarely (maybe 1-3 times a year if even) do we have a first due fire.

    Is a situation likely to occur that I need to put a roof rope into operation? No probably not. But does that mean we shouldn't be well versed in the evolution should the situation present itself?
    So what do you not train for?

    At what point is it reasonable to say that we don not need that skill?

    The bottom line is that volunteers have a finite amount of time to train, and that time is for more finite than career members.

    Mutual aid response is most areas is quite predictable, and the skill set required for that mutual aid is also predictable. To sit here and "what if" for any and all possibilities will develop a list of "what if skills' that are simply unreasonable and unobtainable for volunteer members.

    Again, I believe in fully training all volunteer members for the typical skills they will perform, and encouraging those members that have the dedication and time to pursue advanced skills to pursue those skills. But the reality is that most volunteers only have the time to obtain and develop those everyday bread and butter skills, and to expect them to be able to train for every mutual aid scenario is simply unreasonable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So let's talk numbers .....

    Awareness- 12 Hours. Operations-24 Hours. FFI - At least 90 Hours. CPR - 8 Hours. Basic First Aid (As required by FFI) - 24 Hours. ICS 700/800/100/200 - 6-8 Hours. Department level training - ????

    Reasonable? No.

    My previous VFD covered the basics quite well in less than 60 hours, including CPR and ICS and allowed new members to operate quite safely under supervision on the fireground. Reasonable? Yes.
    The basics are great and a necessity. But is that enough a year later? Will you retain everything enough and be well versed in various techniques to the extent that if something should occur you know how to react swiftly or will you need to stop and stare into space while you figure it out?

    Another example from my region is being qualified as chauffeur. Its a one time deal learning experience with no continuity of practice or education after that. We say good job you know what to do and on your way. If we get a new rig, sure you have to review it but otherwise your word of mouth certification holds for the duration of your membership. You could avoid driving that rig for the next 10 years and suddenly your the ECC at a first due job and have no clue how to get water to the men. I've never seen anyone I volunteer with say to a more informed member "can we take the engine out and review today?" But I certainly have seen multiple members not know what to do at a fire and keep us waiting for water or foam.

    I often ponder what the legal ramifications would be if members inside got hurt because the ECC failed to fulfill his role properly. His being allowed to drive is solely word of mouth based on the senior man above him. They are held to no legitimate standard.

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