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Thread: Are we all firefighters or not?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what do you not train for?

    At what point is it reasonable to say that we don not need that skill?

    The bottom line is that volunteers have a finite amount of time to train, and that time is for more finite than career members.

    Mutual aid response is most areas is quite predictable, and the skill set required for that mutual aid is also predictable. To sit here and "what if" for any and all possibilities will develop a list of "what if skills' that are simply unreasonable and unobtainable for volunteer members.

    Again, I believe in fully training all volunteer members for the typical skills they will perform, and encouraging those members that have the dedication and time to pursue advanced skills to pursue those skills. But the reality is that most volunteers only have the time to obtain and develop those everyday bread and butter skills, and to expect them to be able to train for every mutual aid scenario is simply unreasonable.
    And im not disagreeing with you that volunteers have a finite amount of time. But where can you reasonably draw the line to say its acceptable? Are career firefighters trained too much? Is such a thing possible? Certainly not. So the only reasonable conclusion is volunteers are not trained enough but a line must be drawn in the sand somewhere. I feel that line is currently cut far too short and if people can't make it, they need to move on to the auxiliary police.

    I am not saying you need to train guys for when a volcano spontaneously erupts in the middle of the town but what do we do when an oddball scenario presents itself and no one on scene has a clue what to do? Who do we call? We already are the first responders and the cavalry is more than likely to be trained to the same degree.

    When serious emergencies occur, be it few and far between, lives often hang in the balance. Both civilian and first responder lives. When one is lost, do you want to hear someone say "well we are just volunteers, we did our best."

    Even when half these guys do decide to show up for a training, most of them use it as a social hour while the same few guys legitimately participate. But even the top of the food chain lets it go on because they participate in that same social gathering.
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 11-19-2013 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    The basics are great and a necessity. But is that enough a year later? Will you retain everything enough and be well versed in various techniques to the extent that if something should occur you know how to react swiftly or will you need to stop and stare into space while you figure it out?

    Members were expected to attend training to practice existing skills and learn new skills. In fact, there was a 75% attendance requirement which was ENFORCED.

    We were also busy enough that the basic skills were used quite frequently in real world situations.


    Another example from my region is being qualified as chauffeur. Its a one time deal learning experience with no continuity of practice or education after that. We say good job you know what to do and on your way. If we get a new rig, sure you have to review it but otherwise your word of mouth certification holds for the duration of your membership. You could avoid driving that rig for the next 10 years and suddenly your the ECC at a first due job and have no clue how to get water to the men. I've never seen anyone I volunteer with say to a more informed member "can we take the engine out and review today?" But I certainly have seen multiple members not know what to do at a fire and keep us waiting for water or foam.

    I don't disagree at all. Department level recertification needs to be a part of every training process.

    I often ponder what the legal ramifications would be if members inside got hurt because the ECC failed to fulfill his role properly. His being allowed to drive is solely word of mouth based on the senior man above him. They are held to no legitimate standard.
    Probably the department would be liable, especially in a civil suit, if they could not prove that there was a process in place to certify and re-certify skills on a on-going basis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    Delivery methods, standards and sorting the must have from the nice to know.

    Maybe even more important than setting some minimum standards is finding delivery methods that work on a volunteer schedule. Not reducing hours for volunteers, just making sure it is more accommodating to them. It takes effort at the state level though, travelling class rooms, barracks at centralized training facilities (so the students from out of the area have somewhere to stay) and weird hours so dedicated volunteers who don't have dedicated employers can still get training. Bankers hours work great for career guys, but not so much for volunteers.
    I agree that improving the availability and delivery of training is the proper way to go rather than reducing required training.

    Personally I'd be all for utilizing unemployment to let volunteers get in a block of time to attend training. It gets used for far less useful things than training a firefighter. Obviously this has room for abuse, but what doesn't.
    I'm not sure I'm following this point.

    As far as standards, I agree all firefighters should be trained to the same level on standard functions. I think there needs to be some focus on just what is critical, what is nice to know and what needs to be all alone in its own class.

    I used to be involved with an 80 hour volunteer academy that met Proboard standards for FF1. It was a good introduction, but I found it very frustrating because instead of focusing on the most critical skills it just touched on a little of everything. 4 hours on salvage, 4 hours on auto extrication, 2 hours on knots, 4 hours on wildland. All these little nice to know things ate up time for teaching the stuff that will make them effective beginning firefighters. Salvage is nice, and saving property is good but lacking good salvage technique is unlikely to get someone killed. Another 4 hours on ladders would be a good trade. Not necessarily. Ladders are not that complex and an additional 4 hours of instruction isn't going to provide anything more that couldn't be covered in the existing time allotted. What the student likely needs more of is practice actually throwing the ladders. Something that can easily be provided by their own department (think of it as homework). Auto extrication is also an important skill but 4 hours is just enough to get you hurt, auto extrication deserves its own stand alone training and for a department that only does fire, a completely unnecessary skill. I wouldn't call it "completely unnecessary" even if a department doesn't provide direct extrication services. In my state, vehicle extrication is a standalone certification. Wildland same thing, 4 hours in a structure fire focused class is not going to teach you anymore than 4 hours at drill back home, and if wildland isn't a service delivered another waste of time that could have gone towards real structure fire basics. There are aspects of wildland firefighting that can be applicable outside of typical wildland areas. Even an urban FD like FDNY operates brush fire units.
    The problem with that program IMO, is your (and likely others) expectation of it. It's basic entry level training and the expectation should not be one of the person being "combat ready" upon completion of the course.

    After completion of the initial training course, it is the person's fire department's responsibility to begin teaching them the more in depth knowledge needed in the areas of need for that department. Additionally, that person should be mentored by a senior member around the station and not be allowed to operate without direct supervision of a line officer or senior member on calls until they've gained the experience and training to be able to work unsupervised.

    The entire training system in most states is based on the needs of the career fire departments. As simple as FF1 & 2, why. Why not FF1-10?
    I can't speak for most states, but that isn't the case in mine. Ours is based largely on the volunteer side of things.

    Some states don't even make that much effort leaving it to the individual department to decide when somebody is trained enough.
    That's pretty much the case in my state since there's absolutely no mandatory minimum standard for firefighter training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I absolutely agree that members should not be operating without adequate training for the hazards posed by their response areas. And I agree that department-level training should be meet all of the district's needs, planned, scheduled and delivered on a regular basis, and members should be required to meet specified training attendance requirements of at least 75%.

    We actually disagree on this too. You believe it is adequate and proper to have 2 tiers of volunteer, interior and exterior. I adamantly oppose that and will NEVER support that 2 tiered idea.

    I have never stated otherwise.

    And again, with no external motivation there will always be VFDs that have their idea of a training night being sitting around the meeting room playing cards and drinking beer. I believe that fire departments, and firefighters, need to be held to an external minimum standard to force those that don't have the internal motivation, or leadership with enough stones to actually lead, to train their firefighters properly.

    And I have absolutely no issues with members being required to meet in-house cognitive and manipulative requirements.

    And I have no problem with either the state, or federal government, tying funding and grants to meeting a minimum training standard established by the funding agency.

    Where we disagree is on the need for certification.

    No, not really. Where we disagree is allowing VFDs, many with horrible track records for training, to set the standards for minimum levels of training.
    We do disagree and I believe we always will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Is the true problem here the word "Firefighter" and it being too generic a term?
    I don't think it's a matter of the term being too generic, but rather it's used too liberally.

    On the PD side, a police officer is still a police officer even if they are a detective, SWAT member, etc.

    On the EMS side, there are clear (and somewhat uniform) delineations between providers regarding training and skill sets - CFR, EMT, EMT-I, Paramedic, RN, MD.

    This carries over into the organizational level as a PD is a PD and EMS agencies are categorized as BLS, limited ALS, full ALS & CC, each with clearly defined requirements to operate at that level.

    The fire service really doesn't have that. We apply the term "fire department" to any organization that has fire trucks and goes to fire calls regardless of what they can actually provide for services. We pretty much apply the term "firefighter" to any member of that organization.

    I don't know if additional terms would actually help anything as I suspect the new terms would largely exacerbate what I see as an "inferiority complex" on the volunteer side driving the "we're all the same" argument. The VFDs that have their act together don't seem to be the ones banging that drum the loudest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    It's entirely possible and reasonable for it to be obtained within one year.
    That assumes that the course is available for the firefighter to take, and that he (or she) will be available to complete the course. Usually that's not a problem, but work does take precendence, and not all employers are willing to be flexible enough for that to happen.

    Fortunately, most folks are able to do so, and the one year requirement is in our bylaws. Still, there are times. And they are allowed to take "Scene Support," which gets them the orientation and safety training they need to be on the fireground, if not inside putting out fire.

    And that's where the concept of using unemployment might come into play - if a firefighter can take two weeks off, with some sort of pay (unemployment) to attend the academy, why not?

    As for having two levels of certification - this is where older members factor in. Beyond a certain age, most would agree that Ol' Joe shouldn't be in a pack doing initial fire attack. But he's a wizard with the engine, and since he's retired, he's available most of the time. Do we thank him for his service and bid him farewell, while multiple pages go out for a pump operator?

    In a small, rural department, we can't throw away perfectly good resources.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    That assumes that the course is available for the firefighter to take, and that he (or she) will be available to complete the course. Usually that's not a problem, but work does take precendence, and not all employers are willing to be flexible enough for that to happen.

    In this area LSU FFI classes are few and far between, simply because of the fact that the regional programs are really designed to teach 3-hour classes, or in some cases Haz-mat Operations and Awareness.

    Does LSU teach FFI now and then? Sure. But it's usually for a bigger department or more highly populated region that can get 20 folks who usually have a very short drive.

    You almost never see an LSU class in a rural area where they would have to draw from many departments 30-45 minutes (or more) because they can't get the numbers to make the classes viable.

    And most of these departments simply do not have any or enough certified instructors to teach the classes.


    Fortunately, most folks are able to do so, and the one year requirement is in our bylaws. Still, there are times. And they are allowed to take "Scene Support," which gets them the orientation and safety training they need to be on the fireground, if not inside putting out fire.

    No training requirements in LA so requiring a class for them to operate is not an issue.

    And that's where the concept of using unemployment might come into play - if a firefighter can take two weeks off, with some sort of pay (unemployment) to attend the academy, why not?

    Assuming his employer could go without him/her for 2 weeks.

    The problem is in LA the Academy offered by the state is 9 weeks, and they are the only ones that offer such a program.


    As for having two levels of certification - this is where older members factor in. Beyond a certain age, most would agree that Ol' Joe shouldn't be in a pack doing initial fire attack. But he's a wizard with the engine, and since he's retired, he's available most of the time. Do we thank him for his service and bid him farewell, while multiple pages go out for a pump operator?

    In a small, rural department, we can't throw away perfectly good resources.
    The idea that we wouldn't operate with interior and exterior certification is just assine. The simple fact is that very few rural VFDs in this part of the state could throw together an all-interior crew.

    Operating without exterior members would be the death knell for probably 60-75% of the rural VFDs in the state.
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    My opinions:

    There should be certifications for every job function we perform.
    Water supply, ground ladders, ventilation, exposure protection, interior firefighting, auto extrication, etc.

    As a new person in the department, they should have the opportunity to attend emergency scenes as an observer directly under the supervision of an officer (if the officer is willing on that particular call to take on the responsibility). Nothing worse than having a person sit through >140 hours of training, go to the first real call and find out they just can't take the confusion and chaos of a non-scripted scene.

    If you want to perform a function on the scene, you must be certified, or directly under the supervision of a crew that can perform the task without you. We all know there instances where the impetus is not as great where the new guy can do it without endangering others - just be ready to take over if necessary.

    These certification levels need to be national. All states do is add there own little requirements so that the academy can afford to keep more people on staff and justify more positions.

    Again, these certifications need to be specific enough that a volunteer with a family can get them in little chunks (8-24 hours at a time) until they have reached a level where they are a fully capable member. This gives the volunteer the chance to balance family, job, and passion.

    All certification should be done as certification, not as the PA way where if you show up and have a pulse to a majority of the class, you get a certificate. You must demonstrate knowledge before you get that certification.

    Our reality is that some people do not want to go inside, can't wear a pack, are claustrophobic, or for other reasons don't want to go in. I still want them to have a certification showing that they can set up a water supply, place ladders, etc. Both for my sake in knowing they can, but also to recognize their efforts that they are willing to train and do what they can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So let's talk numbers .....

    Awareness- 12 Hours. Operations-24 Hours. FFI - At least 90 Hours. CPR - 8 Hours. Basic First Aid (As required by FFI) - 24 Hours. ICS 700/800/100/200 - 6-8 Hours. Department level training - ????

    Reasonable? No.

    My previous VFD covered the basics quite well in less than 60 hours, including CPR and ICS and allowed new members to operate quite safely under supervision on the fireground. Reasonable? Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what do you not train for?

    At what point is it reasonable to say that we don not need that skill?

    The bottom line is that volunteers have a finite amount of time to train, and that time is for more finite than career members.

    Mutual aid response is most areas is quite predictable, and the skill set required for that mutual aid is also predictable. To sit here and "what if" for any and all possibilities will develop a list of "what if skills' that are simply unreasonable and unobtainable for volunteer members.

    Again, I believe in fully training all volunteer members for the typical skills they will perform, and encouraging those members that have the dedication and time to pursue advanced skills to pursue those skills. But the reality is that most volunteers only have the time to obtain and develop those everyday bread and butter skills, and to expect them to be able to train for every mutual aid scenario is simply unreasonable.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Probably the department would be liable, especially in a civil suit, if they could not prove that there was a process in place to certify and re-certify skills on a on-going basis.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The idea that we wouldn't operate with interior and exterior certification is just assine. The simple fact is that very few rural VFDs in this part of the state could throw together an all-interior crew.

    Operating without exterior members would be the death knell for probably 60-75% of the rural VFDs in the state.
    As to be expected. LAFE pulls out the excuse book to justify the pathetic operation he wants everyone to believe is a firefighting organziation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As to be expected. LAFE pulls out the excuse book to justify the pathetic operation he wants everyone to believe is a firefighting organziation.
    And as to be expected, SC pulls out his moron card to prove that he is still a moron.

    And as I have said before .. When you state that career members should attend the academy and all other required training without compensation, I'll state that volunteers should have the same training as career members.

    It's all about a level playing field.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-19-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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    With regards to ISO requirements:
    The new FSRS (Fire Supression Rating Schedule) has been changed and updated to include new requirements for certification of certain elements.

    1. Officers (Including VOLUNTEER) - Must be certified to the General criteria of NFPA 1021 - Standard for Fire Officer Professional Quailifications - ISO will be looking at the actual certifications to ensure compliance (this requires Firefighter I and II, And Fire Instructor)

    2. Officer continuing education should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1021, 1521 and 1561.

    3. New Driver Operator training - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    4. Existing driver/operator - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    5. BRAND NEW - ISO now requires a fire department to have SOP's and follow the IMS system according to NIMS and NFPA 1561

    I have worked with several Field Representatives who reviewed the actual certification documents. If the certificate did not state that it met the requirements of the NFPA standard they gace no credit

    I HIGHLY encourage fire departments to get a copy of the new FSRS and start reading through the document. As I find time I will be putting more information up on my website concerning the changes to the FSRS. The simple fact is this, ISO is now requiring volunteer fire departments to comply with the same requirements that paid fire departments are required to follow.


    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as to be expected, SC pulls out his moron card to prove that he is still a moron.
    They're your excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as I have said before .. When you state that career members should attend the academy and all other required training without compensation, I'll state that volunteers should have the same training as career members.

    It's all about a level playing field.
    It's only about a level playing field to those pathetic souls like yourself looking for excuses to avoid doing the actual work of being a firefighter.

    Reserve LEO's manage to meet the same requirements as their career counterparts in CA. No reason why vollie firefighter standards shouldn't be the same.

    It would seperate those wanting to be firefighters from posers. Something you know all about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    That assumes that the course is available for the firefighter to take, and that he (or she) will be available to complete the course.
    Obviously.

    Usually that's not a problem, but work does take precendence, and not all employers are willing to be flexible enough for that to happen.
    True. However, I would say that if you don't have the time to get the training you need to do the job, then you don't have the time to do the job.

    Fortunately, most folks are able to do so, and the one year requirement is in our bylaws. Still, there are times. And they are allowed to take "Scene Support," which gets them the orientation and safety training they need to be on the fireground, if not inside putting out fire.
    Which I have no issue with. Unfortunately, I have encountered many VFDs that will allow untrained, undertrained, and uncertified members operate on a scene without restriction.

    And that's where the concept of using unemployment might come into play - if a firefighter can take two weeks off, with some sort of pay (unemployment) to attend the academy, why not?
    What about the lost productivity or potential increased costs at that person's place of employment while they are not there for those two weeks?

    As for having two levels of certification - this is where older members factor in. Beyond a certain age, most would agree that Ol' Joe shouldn't be in a pack doing initial fire attack. But he's a wizard with the engine, and since he's retired, he's available most of the time. Do we thank him for his service and bid him farewell, while multiple pages go out for a pump operator?

    In a small, rural department, we can't throw away perfectly good resources.
    Maybe you missed it, but I'm on record in this forum as supporting a tiered certification process that addresses some of the realities of the volunteer fire service. If a member only wants to drive, then they would have to have the "driver" certification. If they want to provide exterior support services, then they would have to have the "support" certification. If they wanted to be an interior firefighter, then they would have to have the "interior firefighter" certification. Basically, everyone on the fireground would be certified for the role that they are filling and departments would be prohibited from allowing their members to operate beyond their certifications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seagravesstick View Post
    With regards to ISO requirements:
    The new FSRS (Fire Supression Rating Schedule) has been changed and updated to include new requirements for certification of certain elements.

    1. Officers (Including VOLUNTEER) - Must be certified to the General criteria of NFPA 1021 - Standard for Fire Officer Professional Quailifications - ISO will be looking at the actual certifications to ensure compliance (this requires Firefighter I and II, And Fire Instructor)

    2. Officer continuing education should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1021, 1521 and 1561.

    3. New Driver Operator training - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    4. Existing driver/operator - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    5. BRAND NEW - ISO now requires a fire department to have SOP's and follow the IMS system according to NIMS and NFPA 1561

    I have worked with several Field Representatives who reviewed the actual certification documents. If the certificate did not state that it met the requirements of the NFPA standard they gace no credit

    I HIGHLY encourage fire departments to get a copy of the new FSRS and start reading through the document. As I find time I will be putting more information up on my website concerning the changes to the FSRS. The simple fact is this, ISO is now requiring volunteer fire departments to comply with the same requirements that paid fire departments are required to follow.


    David
    Thanks. I knew I would never be able to find that info.
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    What is the problem with the current training with vol. departments? A new national standard? Would that help? Are the citizens getting what they are paying for? Sometimes they are, sometimes not.
    If the boys ask me to do a bunch more bake sales to pay for the new "National Standards" im gonna puke.
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    Seagrave .....

    What will the ISO requirements be for firefighters?

    As I have stated we are not an ISO state, but it's pretty certain that our rating agency will adopt their standards.

    Am I to understand that if members at each of these levels do not have those certifications they will not be counted on the roster?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    They're your excuses.


    It's only about a level playing field to those pathetic souls like yourself looking for excuses to avoid doing the actual work of being a firefighter.

    Funny thing is that I have all the relevant operational certs up to Officer I plus Inspector I/II, Fire & Life Safety Educator I/II and Fire Investigator.

    Reserve LEO's manage to meet the same requirements as their career counterparts in CA. No reason why vollie firefighter standards shouldn't be the same.

    Same here. Irrelevant.

    It would seperate those wanting to be firefighters from posers. Something you know all about.
    Yup.

    34 years and still posing.
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    FireMedic - I agree wholeheartedly.

    On the topic of not being able to make the training, though, consider someone who works second shift permanently - while all courses are offered in the evening. Here's a person who will be a fantastic daytime resource, but can't be used because they can't get the training.

    Good point on the employers increased costs - and another challenge to find a solution for.
    Last edited by tree68; 11-19-2013 at 03:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as to be expected, SC pulls out his moron card to prove that he is still a moron.

    Funny thing is you are both consistent in your argument. And yet both wrong to varying degrees.

    And as I have said before .. When you state that career members should attend the academy and all other required training without compensation, I'll state that volunteers should have the same training as career members.

    When you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that any structure located in an area covered by a career department burns differently than a similar structure located in an area covered by a volunteer FD then I will support different training standards. Until then any attempt at different standards, meaning a lesser standard for volunteers, is nothing more than excuses for an inferior performance.

    It's all about a level playing field.

    Not at all, it's about you and so many other volunteer firefighters wanting to claim that because you are volunteers you deserve a lesser standard of performance. The truly pathetic part is you want to be held in the same esteem as career firefighters without doing any of the work to be able to perform like they do.
    It appears from what you have said fire training in Louisiana is a train wreck. Limited availability to rural areas, refusal to regionalize training, and an impotent fire service leadership that is either unwilling, or unable, to affect any meaningful change.

    I guess I live in a fire training utopia where the state pays for training to the Entry Level track and the Certification track too. While there are some central location classes taught at tech college campuses the vast majority are taught in fire departments throughout the tech college districts. This system has dramatically increased the training and certification levels in volunteer fire departments. Obviously more in some areas than others. Having a minimum standard for training has forced many departments out of the good old boy style of training into better, regimented training. All in all, I am very prooud of the fire training available in Wisconsin. It did not happen overnight and it took some tenacious, smart, hard driven fire service leaders to get us where we are. They refused to sit on their hands and say woe is me...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    FireMedic - I agree wholeheartedly.

    On the topic of not being able to make the training, though, consider someone who works second shift permanently - while all courses are offered in the evening. Here's a person who will be a fantastic daytime resource, but can't be used because they can't get the training.

    Good point on the employers increased costs - and another challenge to find a solution for.
    For awhile .. actually, a very long time we had the opposite issue as LSU Fire training was scheduling all of their certification classes beyond FFI and specialty technical rescue classes M-F 8-5. Most FFI/II were daytime as well with one every once in awhile at night.

    After the volunteer fire service told them that this wasn't working they have now scheduled a couple of recent Officer I and Instructor I classes at night, with some success.

    Driver/Operator, Officer II, Inspector and all of the technical rescue programs are still daytime.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ...I guess I live in a fire training utopia...
    Yes, you do.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It appears from what you have said fire training in Louisiana is a train wreck. Limited availability to rural areas, refusal to regionalize training, and an impotent fire service leadership that is either unwilling, or unable, to affect any meaningful change.

    It has improved to a limited extent, and LSU Fire Training has started to refocus. For many years LSU Fire training rotated around industrial training, the recruit academy at their Baton Rouge Campus and ARFF, because that was paying the bills. The regional delivery of fire training was a drain, and they paid little attention to it.

    They still only have 2 facilities for the entire state - Baton Rouge and the Pine Country facility up here. Regional delivery has gotten better but it still limited by a limited budget. There is no involvement at the tech college level.


    I guess I live in a fire training utopia where the state pays for training to the Entry Level track and the Certification track too.

    Regional 3-hour and haz-mat classes are free. Occasionally they will be a 12-hour weekend municipal school for volunteers for free. Recently they just did a 1-day bus extrication class for free in Baton Rouge. Classes such as Instructor, Officer I and Investigator ranges from $200-$250 per person. I believe Driver/Operator is $300 per person. 40-hour Extrication and technical rescue ranges from $350-$450 per person.

    While there are some central location classes taught at tech college campuses the vast majority are taught in fire departments throughout the tech college districts. This system has dramatically increased the training and certification levels in volunteer fire departments.

    Sounds like a good way to deliver training.

    Obviously more in some areas than others. Having a minimum standard for training has forced many departments out of the good old boy style of training into better, regimented training.

    And I'm sure it has had an effect on membership, and that's my issue. I have a strong feeling that here in LA it would have a significant impact on the older members in most rural VFDs who in many places are the bulk of their manpower. I'm sure that those Chiefs would like to have a younger force but in many places it just isn't in the cards due to demographics.

    All in all, I am very prooud of the fire training available in Wisconsin. It did not happen overnight and it took some tenacious, smart, hard driven fire service leaders to get us where we are. They refused to sit on their hands and say woe is me...
    And neither have ours but the legislature simply refuses to allocate additional money from the insurance rebate and LSU refuses to allocate additional monies from their budget despite the pleas from the fire service.

    I think everybody would like to see an expanded regional role for LSU Fire Training but it's just not in the cards right now.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    FireMedic - I agree wholeheartedly.

    On the topic of not being able to make the training, though, consider someone who works second shift permanently - while all courses are offered in the evening. Here's a person who will be a fantastic daytime resource, but can't be used because they can't get the training.
    I have taken that into consideration and have stated (although maybe not directly) that the availability and delivery of the needed training should be such that people who don't work "business hours" can get it.

    On the other hand, we shouldn't expect training opportunities to be specifically tailored to our individual needs.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I have taken that into consideration and have stated (although maybe not directly) that the availability and delivery of the needed training should be such that people who don't work "business hours" can get it.

    On the other hand, we shouldn't expect training opportunities to be specifically tailored to our individual needs.
    If the course is requested for daytime hours, or weekends only, it will be offered and ran if there are 10 students. The problem seems to be the thought that we only run classes at night. The tech colleges are flexible that way.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I have all the relevant operational certs up to Officer I plus Inspector I/II, Fire & Life Safety Educator I/II and Fire Investigator.
    Good for you. What do you want? A cookie? YOUR SUPPOSED TO HAVE ALL YOUR CERTS!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Same here. Irrelevant.
    Only to the excuse makers like yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup.

    34 years and still posing.
    Says it all.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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