Like Tree20Likes

Thread: Are we all firefighters or not?

  1. #76
    Forum Member
    conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Seagrave .....

    What will the ISO requirements be for firefighters?

    As I have stated we are not an ISO state, but it's pretty certain that our rating agency will adopt their standards.

    Am I to understand that if members at each of these levels do not have those certifications they will not be counted on the roster?
    Im hopefully not telling tales out of school, but I believe that it the dept. does not comply with the new standards the city or the county will loose ISO points, so the rating will go up. Everyone will still be firefighters but the citizen's insurance will go up.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  2. #77
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,048

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    My opinions:

    There should be certifications for every job function we perform.
    Water supply, ground ladders, ventilation, exposure protection, interior firefighting, auto extrication, etc.

    As a new person in the department, they should have the opportunity to attend emergency scenes as an observer directly under the supervision of an officer (if the officer is willing on that particular call to take on the responsibility). Nothing worse than having a person sit through >140 hours of training, go to the first real call and find out they just can't take the confusion and chaos of a non-scripted scene.

    If you want to perform a function on the scene, you must be certified, or directly under the supervision of a crew that can perform the task without you. We all know there instances where the impetus is not as great where the new guy can do it without endangering others - just be ready to take over if necessary.

    These certification levels need to be national. All states do is add there own little requirements so that the academy can afford to keep more people on staff and justify more positions.

    Again, these certifications need to be specific enough that a volunteer with a family can get them in little chunks (8-24 hours at a time) until they have reached a level where they are a fully capable member. This gives the volunteer the chance to balance family, job, and passion.

    All certification should be done as certification, not as the PA way where if you show up and have a pulse to a majority of the class, you get a certificate. You must demonstrate knowledge before you get that certification.

    Our reality is that some people do not want to go inside, can't wear a pack, are claustrophobic, or for other reasons don't want to go in. I still want them to have a certification showing that they can set up a water supply, place ladders, etc. Both for my sake in knowing they can, but also to recognize their efforts that they are willing to train and do what they can.
    http://www.sautech.edu/docs/afta/fir...athProgram.pdf This is the Arkansas "patch" program -it is probably similar to what your are talking about. the biggest problem with it is many of the classes can be taught by an in house "certified training officer" - and a large percentage of the CTOs are two year wonders.
    ?

  3. #78
    Forum Member
    conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    561

    Default

    I wonder what it would cost to get everyone one the same page?
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  4. #79
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Marble Rock, Iowa
    Posts
    217

    Default

    Iowa has a minimum standard and I think it's next to useless. Our state standard is that you have to be trained to the FF1 level and have 24 hours of continuing ed a year to be an interior firefighter. It does not say the training has to come from state instructors or even that it has to be the actual FF1 course. This is only to be an interior firefighter, there is no minium training for fighting brush fires or working outside at a structure fire or working an MVA.

    I say that this is almost useless because it give to much liberty to departments to say they trained on something when they actually did not. I would like to see at least FF1 Certification as the MINIMUM standard. As others have already stated and as most of us know FF1 is just basic skills so you know what to do when you're told to do something. And with less and less fires these days I think we need a higher level of training so that when we do have to fight a structure fire we can better understand what's happening and how to deal with it.

  5. #80
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Regardless of certifications, I find there are far more firefighters who are not one.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  6. #81
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If the course is requested for daytime hours, or weekends only, it will be offered and ran if there are 10 students.
    A daytime course was considered here, and while there was some interest, there just weren't enough people to take it. Too - most all of the instructors have day jobs...

    My son was able to get his FF1, FF2, and a couple of other courses during the day at the MFRI southern campus. Worked out well for him as his schedule allowed it. They also had some HS students (FD members) who attended, possibly as part of their school schedule.

    Our local community college offers a fire science course, but that involves full-time enrollment at the college, with the usual costs therein.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  7. #82
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Lusby, MD
    Posts
    1,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    A daytime course was considered here, and while there was some interest, there just weren't enough people to take it. Too - most all of the instructors have day jobs...

    My son was able to get his FF1, FF2, and a couple of other courses during the day at the MFRI southern campus. Worked out well for him as his schedule allowed it. They also had some HS students (FD members) who attended, possibly as part of their school schedule.

    Our local community college offers a fire science course, but that involves full-time enrollment at the college, with the usual costs therein.
    We are very lucky here in Maryland to have MFRI. There are enough courses and times offered to meet most schedules. With the regional training centers, the classes are close enough to avoid long drives. This availability of courses is the key to being able to require FF1 as the starting point for firefighters.

  8. #83
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    We are very lucky here in Maryland to have MFRI. There are enough courses and times offered to meet most schedules. With the regional training centers, the classes are close enough to avoid long drives. This availability of courses is the key to being able to require FF1 as the starting point for firefighters.
    And that is part of my point.

    If the funding or the system is not in place to deliver FFI to all areas of the state and within a reasonable drive time (less than 30 minutes, especially for night classes that may go to 9:30 or 10) it simply is not a reasonable demand to require FFI.

    That would be a significant issue in LA as most rural departments do not have enough qualified instructors, which would limit where courses could be taught, requiring long drive times.

    The other issue in this state is that the state fire training agency is simply not funded to deliver that volume of FFI/FFII classes and the departments do not have the funding to pay for them.

    And I'm sure this is the case in other primarily rural states as well.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #84
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And that is part of my point.

    If the funding or the system is not in place to deliver FFI to all areas of the state and within a reasonable drive time (less than 30 minutes, especially for night classes that may go to 9:30 or 10) it simply is not a reasonable demand to require FFI.

    That would be a significant issue in LA as most rural departments do not have enough qualified instructors, which would limit where courses could be taught, requiring long drive times.

    The other issue in this state is that the state fire training agency is simply not funded to deliver that volume of FFI/FFII classes and the departments do not have the funding to pay for them.

    And I'm sure this is the case in other primarily rural states as well.
    More excuses from the resident wannabe.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  10. #85
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    More excuses from the resident wannabe.
    Nope. Reality.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  11. #86
    Forum Member
    conrad427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Just south of Canada
    Posts
    561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And that is part of my point.

    If the funding or the system is not in place to deliver FFI to all areas of the state and within a reasonable drive time (less than 30 minutes, especially for night classes that may go to 9:30 or 10) it simply is not a reasonable demand to require FFI.

    That would be a significant issue in LA as most rural departments do not have enough qualified instructors, which would limit where courses could be taught, requiring long drive times.

    The other issue in this state is that the state fire training agency is simply not funded to deliver that volume of FFI/FFII classes and the departments do not have the funding to pay for them.

    And I'm sure this is the case in other primarily rural states as well.
    Kinda the same here in Montana. I'm still looking for alternatives though.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  12. #87
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Nope. Reality.
    If you can't meet the standards, then don't do it.

    You're not doing anyone any favors.

    If it requires your community to step up and put forth resources so that they have adequate fire protection that is a good thing.

    Right now they have an umbrella that melts in the rain.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  13. #88
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If it requires your community to step up and put forth resources so that they have adequate fire protection that is a good thing.
    When the community has to rely on personal property taxes to fund all public services because they don't have the commercial or industrial tax bases to help spread the financial burden, they (the public) directly get to decide which public services get more funding than others.

    They're not going to carry the cost of career fire personnel on their backs in a community that's only going to answer a couple of calls a week, if that.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 11-20-2013 at 02:33 PM.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  14. #89
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Lusby, MD
    Posts
    1,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If you can't meet the standards, then don't do it.

    You're not doing anyone any favors.

    If it requires your community to step up and put forth resources so that they have adequate fire protection that is a good thing.

    Right now they have an umbrella that melts in the rain.
    So a community, county, region or whatever entity is responsible that can't afford to provide training for volunteers is now going to pay for firefighters saleries, benefits, and in some cases new stations and equipment? I don't see that happening. I guess they could go to a subscription service, but based on what I've seen on another threads, that's not the answer either.

    It would easy for me to sit here and say that everybody should be at least FF1 certified, given the resources available in Maryland. In reality, if the resources aren't available to provide the training, it's unreasonable to require it. The problem is getting enough political capital together to fund and provide the required training at reasonable times and distances.
    Last edited by Eng34FF; 11-20-2013 at 12:14 PM.

  15. #90
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    72

    Default

    The only thing addressed at this point is that every firefighter must have their own set of compliant PPE. I have worked with a Field Representative who said all firefighters were required to be at least Firefighter I certified.... but when I pressed him to provide the request in writing he said he would accept a department provided list.... I do know that ISO is going to review and update the FSRS every 3-5 years trying to follow the code cycles of NFPA and ICC. And in the future there will be more compliance requirements with NFPA.

  16. #91
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,303

    Default

    Career staffed isn't part of the equation here. Three quarters of this country hasn't got the tax base or the run volume to justify it. There are areas that are on the cusp (mostly suburban locales) and those are slowly converting, often with some mix of career and volunteer (or POC).

    With training, it does come down to delivery. Any training - be it for firefighters, nurses, or automotive techs, has to be available when the prospective trainees are, and economically feasible. Some areas have that. Some give it the ol' "college try." Some are woefully lacking.

    People choose to live in those areas (just as some choose not to do so). They get the fire protection they want, and they often make that choice at the ballot box. Would they like a 3+2 response with 5 FF2s on every rig? Sure! Are they willing to write the check? Not so much. They accept what they've got and recognize it for what it is. Fortunately, in many areas (even rural), they do get a 3+2 (or some semblance thereof), albeit with less than 5, in a mix ranging from driver to FF2 and beyond, and often coming from greater distances.

    The best we can do is to train to be the best we can be, and to work on improving our opportunities to improve ourselves.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  17. #92
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If you can't meet the standards, then don't do it.

    You're not doing anyone any favors.

    If it requires your community to step up and put forth resources so that they have adequate fire protection that is a good thing.

    Right now they have an umbrella that melts in the rain.
    Thing is that we do meet the current standards.

    The state of LA has no minimum training standards for career or volunteer firefighters. None. So any training that any department does exceeds the current standards.

    As far as stepping up .. here's the math dude ....

    Let's take my current volunteer district. 5000 folks and about 1800 residences as of the last census. Probably less than 30 commercial structures. Plenty of churches but they are tax exempt.

    We currently run 5 stations, which is requirement for distribution under the rating system. Let's say that we run career members out of 2 of the them - north and south - and let vollies run the other three.

    Let's say 3 men per station ... 6 per shift ..... and one shift Chief. We'll retain the volunteer Chief, volunteer Deputy Chief and volunteer Captain for Training Officer.

    Cost for a entry level firefighter in this area is about 30K for salary for a total of 60K with with bene's with 2% more as required by law per year in salary.

    Chief is about $100K.

    So that's 460K per shift or 1.38M for salaries overall at year one before civil service raises.

    So that's 840K divided by 2,100 structures ..... That $ 2100 per structure for salaries excluding all the other expenses associated with operating a fire department.

    Even if we knocked it down to one station in the primary area of the district that's still $800 per structure.

    Not gonna fly.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #93
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'lll stay out of this discussion. My opinions on VFD's are well known. The major points have already been made others.
    Glad your staying out.
    BoxAlarm187 and HuntPA like this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  19. #94
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    499

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    http://www.sautech.edu/docs/afta/fir...athProgram.pdf This is the Arkansas "patch" program -it is probably similar to what your are talking about. the biggest problem with it is many of the classes can be taught by an in house "certified training officer" - and a large percentage of the CTOs are two year wonders.
    This is where I feel that before a patch or certificate is passed out, there must be a written and practical test completed. That is one of the biggest problems I see with the training in PA right now. If you are able to say "Here", you will get credit for the class. I want to see certification, not certificates (of attendance).

    I do like the tiered system and I think that it could very easily be adapted. I will say that it should be one set of certifications though and not basic / advanced. The fire that you are raising ladders on doesn't care if you are paid or not, so why would the certification to perform that task be any different? It would also save a lot of perception issues when it comes to paid or volunteer offering mutual aid to the others. If you have the certificate, you can do it. Period.

  20. #95
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    This is where I feel that before a patch or certificate is passed out, there must be a written and practical test completed. That is one of the biggest problems I see with the training in PA right now. If you are able to say "Here", you will get credit for the class. I want to see certification, not certificates (of attendance).

    I do like the tiered system and I think that it could very easily be adapted. I will say that it should be one set of certifications though and not basic / advanced. The fire that you are raising ladders on doesn't care if you are paid or not, so why would the certification to perform that task be any different? It would also save a lot of perception issues when it comes to paid or volunteer offering mutual aid to the others. If you have the certificate, you can do it. Period.
    I would like to see a two-tiered system as well, except I would like to see Rural/Urban.

    There are a lot of occupancies and operations with associated skills that are found in the urban or even high-density suburban that are not found in the rural or light-density suburban areas.

    Sure, there would be overlap, but there is no doubt that I could identify skills that I used on a regular basis in my previous medium to high-density suburban VFD gig (or even in my current combo department) that I would never use in my present rural VFD department.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  21. #96
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Thing is that we do meet the current standards.

    The state of LA has no minimum training standards for career or volunteer firefighters. None. So any training that any department does exceeds the current standards.

    As far as stepping up .. here's the math dude ....

    Let's take my current volunteer district. 5000 folks and about 1800 residences as of the last census. Probably less than 30 commercial structures. Plenty of churches but they are tax exempt.

    We currently run 5 stations, which is requirement for distribution under the rating system. Let's say that we run career members out of 2 of the them - north and south - and let vollies run the other three.

    Let's say 3 men per station ... 6 per shift ..... and one shift Chief. We'll retain the volunteer Chief, volunteer Deputy Chief and volunteer Captain for Training Officer.

    Cost for a entry level firefighter in this area is about 30K for salary for a total of 60K with with bene's with 2% more as required by law per year in salary.

    Chief is about $100K.

    So that's 460K per shift or 1.38M for salaries overall at year one before civil service raises.

    So that's 840K divided by 2,100 structures ..... That $ 2100 per structure for salaries excluding all the other expenses associated with operating a fire department.

    Even if we knocked it down to one station in the primary area of the district that's still $800 per structure.

    Not gonna fly.
    We've already covered this real estate more than once. You should just admit to your citizens that you have a great social club that looks like a fire department.

    Right now they have no idea that help isn't coming when they call 911.

    I wouldn't be bragging about LA not having any standards.

    When I read you tale of woe as to why real firefighters can't exist in your neighborhood I'm happy to live in a city that has a professional firefighting force.

    I'm betting your little settlement of folks has cops. People that maintain the roads, sewers, and teach in the schools. No reason why firefighters can't be afforded as well.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  22. #97
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We've already covered this real estate more than once. You should just admit to your citizens that you have a great social club that looks like a fire department.

    Right now they have no idea that help isn't coming when they call 911.

    I wouldn't be bragging about LA not having any standards.

    When I read you tale of woe as to why real firefighters can't exist in your neighborhood I'm happy to live in a city that has a professional firefighting force.

    I'm betting your little settlement of folks has cops. People that maintain the roads, sewers, and teach in the schools. No reason why firefighters can't be afforded as well.
    The village has one cop on duty. He likely makes almost in much in tickets per shift as he is paid.

    The Sheriff's department covers the entire parish with 3-4 deputies per shift.

    The parish road department has 6-8 employees.

    The citizens are quite happy with what we provide. they understand the fire, EMS and law enforcement is limited with greater response times than the neighboring city. And far, far, far less taxes.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  23. #98
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The village has one cop on duty. He likely makes almost in much in tickets per shift as he is paid.

    The Sheriff's department covers the entire parish with 3-4 deputies per shift.

    The parish road department has 6-8 employees.

    The citizens are quite happy with what we provide. they understand the fire, EMS and law enforcement is limited with greater response times than the neighboring city. And far, far, far less taxes.
    There's your answer. The Parish should be providing that service. As long as your costume wearers are present they will never be motivated.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  24. #99
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If you can't meet the standards, then don't do it.

    You're not doing anyone any favors.

    If it requires your community to step up and put forth resources so that they have adequate fire protection that is a good thing.

    Right now they have an umbrella that melts in the rain.
    Let's see, we're having a discussion about the need for adequate access to training/certification for the volunteer fire service and the funding needed to do that. Improved access to training/certification arguably leads to being able to provide better fire protection. I think we can all agree to that.

    This post basically states that it's a good thing for a community to "step up" to provide the necessary resources to ensure adequate fire protection for that community. I think we can all agree to this too.

    So, I find it interesting that more than one poster interprets this as meaning the community would be replacing volunteers with career personnel rather than it mean providing funding or other support to improve training/certification opportunities for their volunteers in order to help ensure adequate fire protection.

  25. #100
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Let's see, we're having a discussion about the need for adequate access to training/certification for the volunteer fire service and the funding needed to do that. Improved access to training/certification arguably leads to being able to provide better fire protection. I think we can all agree to that.

    This post basically states that it's a good thing for a community to "step up" to provide the necessary resources to ensure adequate fire protection for that community. I think we can all agree to this too.

    So, I find it interesting that more than one poster interprets this as meaning the community would be replacing volunteers with career personnel rather than it mean providing funding or other support to improve training/certification opportunities for their volunteers in order to help ensure adequate fire protection.
    On Saturday the voters of my volunteer district approved a 5-mil 10-year bond to replace our 1966 mack, and more importantly build a training facility with a burn building, a tower and 4 concrete pads for vehicle fires, vehicle extrication and such.

    It will also fund the purchase our 12 new SCBA with composite cylinders replacing some of our 20-30 ear old SCBA with steel bottles.

    We just ordered a new 4000g tanker 2 months ago and we budgeted 2 members to attend FDIC next year.

    So much for SC's assertion that they are unhappy with what we provide.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. www.firefloor.com New site for firefighters by firefighters
    By firefloor in forum New Web Site Announcements
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-23-2006, 09:45 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-08-2005, 07:02 PM
  3. Firefighters/ Junior Firefighters
    By KParker in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-11-2002, 01:47 PM
  4. NYC events for firefighters given by firefighters?
    By Sara in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-12-2002, 07:14 PM
  5. Firefighters Helping Firefighters?
    By SFD-129-3 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-09-2001, 01:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register