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Thread: Are we all firefighters or not?

  1. #61
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    With regards to ISO requirements:
    The new FSRS (Fire Supression Rating Schedule) has been changed and updated to include new requirements for certification of certain elements.

    1. Officers (Including VOLUNTEER) - Must be certified to the General criteria of NFPA 1021 - Standard for Fire Officer Professional Quailifications - ISO will be looking at the actual certifications to ensure compliance (this requires Firefighter I and II, And Fire Instructor)

    2. Officer continuing education should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1021, 1521 and 1561.

    3. New Driver Operator training - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    4. Existing driver/operator - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    5. BRAND NEW - ISO now requires a fire department to have SOP's and follow the IMS system according to NIMS and NFPA 1561

    I have worked with several Field Representatives who reviewed the actual certification documents. If the certificate did not state that it met the requirements of the NFPA standard they gace no credit

    I HIGHLY encourage fire departments to get a copy of the new FSRS and start reading through the document. As I find time I will be putting more information up on my website concerning the changes to the FSRS. The simple fact is this, ISO is now requiring volunteer fire departments to comply with the same requirements that paid fire departments are required to follow.


    David


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as to be expected, SC pulls out his moron card to prove that he is still a moron.
    They're your excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as I have said before .. When you state that career members should attend the academy and all other required training without compensation, I'll state that volunteers should have the same training as career members.

    It's all about a level playing field.
    It's only about a level playing field to those pathetic souls like yourself looking for excuses to avoid doing the actual work of being a firefighter.

    Reserve LEO's manage to meet the same requirements as their career counterparts in CA. No reason why vollie firefighter standards shouldn't be the same.

    It would seperate those wanting to be firefighters from posers. Something you know all about.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    That assumes that the course is available for the firefighter to take, and that he (or she) will be available to complete the course.
    Obviously.

    Usually that's not a problem, but work does take precendence, and not all employers are willing to be flexible enough for that to happen.
    True. However, I would say that if you don't have the time to get the training you need to do the job, then you don't have the time to do the job.

    Fortunately, most folks are able to do so, and the one year requirement is in our bylaws. Still, there are times. And they are allowed to take "Scene Support," which gets them the orientation and safety training they need to be on the fireground, if not inside putting out fire.
    Which I have no issue with. Unfortunately, I have encountered many VFDs that will allow untrained, undertrained, and uncertified members operate on a scene without restriction.

    And that's where the concept of using unemployment might come into play - if a firefighter can take two weeks off, with some sort of pay (unemployment) to attend the academy, why not?
    What about the lost productivity or potential increased costs at that person's place of employment while they are not there for those two weeks?

    As for having two levels of certification - this is where older members factor in. Beyond a certain age, most would agree that Ol' Joe shouldn't be in a pack doing initial fire attack. But he's a wizard with the engine, and since he's retired, he's available most of the time. Do we thank him for his service and bid him farewell, while multiple pages go out for a pump operator?

    In a small, rural department, we can't throw away perfectly good resources.
    Maybe you missed it, but I'm on record in this forum as supporting a tiered certification process that addresses some of the realities of the volunteer fire service. If a member only wants to drive, then they would have to have the "driver" certification. If they want to provide exterior support services, then they would have to have the "support" certification. If they wanted to be an interior firefighter, then they would have to have the "interior firefighter" certification. Basically, everyone on the fireground would be certified for the role that they are filling and departments would be prohibited from allowing their members to operate beyond their certifications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seagravesstick View Post
    With regards to ISO requirements:
    The new FSRS (Fire Supression Rating Schedule) has been changed and updated to include new requirements for certification of certain elements.

    1. Officers (Including VOLUNTEER) - Must be certified to the General criteria of NFPA 1021 - Standard for Fire Officer Professional Quailifications - ISO will be looking at the actual certifications to ensure compliance (this requires Firefighter I and II, And Fire Instructor)

    2. Officer continuing education should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1021, 1521 and 1561.

    3. New Driver Operator training - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    4. Existing driver/operator - Should be in accordance with the general criteria of NFPA 1002 Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

    5. BRAND NEW - ISO now requires a fire department to have SOP's and follow the IMS system according to NIMS and NFPA 1561

    I have worked with several Field Representatives who reviewed the actual certification documents. If the certificate did not state that it met the requirements of the NFPA standard they gace no credit

    I HIGHLY encourage fire departments to get a copy of the new FSRS and start reading through the document. As I find time I will be putting more information up on my website concerning the changes to the FSRS. The simple fact is this, ISO is now requiring volunteer fire departments to comply with the same requirements that paid fire departments are required to follow.


    David
    Thanks. I knew I would never be able to find that info.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  5. #65
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    What is the problem with the current training with vol. departments? A new national standard? Would that help? Are the citizens getting what they are paying for? Sometimes they are, sometimes not.
    If the boys ask me to do a bunch more bake sales to pay for the new "National Standards" im gonna puke.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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    Seagrave .....

    What will the ISO requirements be for firefighters?

    As I have stated we are not an ISO state, but it's pretty certain that our rating agency will adopt their standards.

    Am I to understand that if members at each of these levels do not have those certifications they will not be counted on the roster?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    They're your excuses.


    It's only about a level playing field to those pathetic souls like yourself looking for excuses to avoid doing the actual work of being a firefighter.

    Funny thing is that I have all the relevant operational certs up to Officer I plus Inspector I/II, Fire & Life Safety Educator I/II and Fire Investigator.

    Reserve LEO's manage to meet the same requirements as their career counterparts in CA. No reason why vollie firefighter standards shouldn't be the same.

    Same here. Irrelevant.

    It would seperate those wanting to be firefighters from posers. Something you know all about.
    Yup.

    34 years and still posing.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #68
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    FireMedic - I agree wholeheartedly.

    On the topic of not being able to make the training, though, consider someone who works second shift permanently - while all courses are offered in the evening. Here's a person who will be a fantastic daytime resource, but can't be used because they can't get the training.

    Good point on the employers increased costs - and another challenge to find a solution for.
    Last edited by tree68; 11-19-2013 at 03:59 PM.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as to be expected, SC pulls out his moron card to prove that he is still a moron.

    Funny thing is you are both consistent in your argument. And yet both wrong to varying degrees.

    And as I have said before .. When you state that career members should attend the academy and all other required training without compensation, I'll state that volunteers should have the same training as career members.

    When you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that any structure located in an area covered by a career department burns differently than a similar structure located in an area covered by a volunteer FD then I will support different training standards. Until then any attempt at different standards, meaning a lesser standard for volunteers, is nothing more than excuses for an inferior performance.

    It's all about a level playing field.

    Not at all, it's about you and so many other volunteer firefighters wanting to claim that because you are volunteers you deserve a lesser standard of performance. The truly pathetic part is you want to be held in the same esteem as career firefighters without doing any of the work to be able to perform like they do.
    It appears from what you have said fire training in Louisiana is a train wreck. Limited availability to rural areas, refusal to regionalize training, and an impotent fire service leadership that is either unwilling, or unable, to affect any meaningful change.

    I guess I live in a fire training utopia where the state pays for training to the Entry Level track and the Certification track too. While there are some central location classes taught at tech college campuses the vast majority are taught in fire departments throughout the tech college districts. This system has dramatically increased the training and certification levels in volunteer fire departments. Obviously more in some areas than others. Having a minimum standard for training has forced many departments out of the good old boy style of training into better, regimented training. All in all, I am very prooud of the fire training available in Wisconsin. It did not happen overnight and it took some tenacious, smart, hard driven fire service leaders to get us where we are. They refused to sit on their hands and say woe is me...
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    FireMedic - I agree wholeheartedly.

    On the topic of not being able to make the training, though, consider someone who works second shift permanently - while all courses are offered in the evening. Here's a person who will be a fantastic daytime resource, but can't be used because they can't get the training.

    Good point on the employers increased costs - and another challenge to find a solution for.
    For awhile .. actually, a very long time we had the opposite issue as LSU Fire training was scheduling all of their certification classes beyond FFI and specialty technical rescue classes M-F 8-5. Most FFI/II were daytime as well with one every once in awhile at night.

    After the volunteer fire service told them that this wasn't working they have now scheduled a couple of recent Officer I and Instructor I classes at night, with some success.

    Driver/Operator, Officer II, Inspector and all of the technical rescue programs are still daytime.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ...I guess I live in a fire training utopia...
    Yes, you do.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It appears from what you have said fire training in Louisiana is a train wreck. Limited availability to rural areas, refusal to regionalize training, and an impotent fire service leadership that is either unwilling, or unable, to affect any meaningful change.

    It has improved to a limited extent, and LSU Fire Training has started to refocus. For many years LSU Fire training rotated around industrial training, the recruit academy at their Baton Rouge Campus and ARFF, because that was paying the bills. The regional delivery of fire training was a drain, and they paid little attention to it.

    They still only have 2 facilities for the entire state - Baton Rouge and the Pine Country facility up here. Regional delivery has gotten better but it still limited by a limited budget. There is no involvement at the tech college level.


    I guess I live in a fire training utopia where the state pays for training to the Entry Level track and the Certification track too.

    Regional 3-hour and haz-mat classes are free. Occasionally they will be a 12-hour weekend municipal school for volunteers for free. Recently they just did a 1-day bus extrication class for free in Baton Rouge. Classes such as Instructor, Officer I and Investigator ranges from $200-$250 per person. I believe Driver/Operator is $300 per person. 40-hour Extrication and technical rescue ranges from $350-$450 per person.

    While there are some central location classes taught at tech college campuses the vast majority are taught in fire departments throughout the tech college districts. This system has dramatically increased the training and certification levels in volunteer fire departments.

    Sounds like a good way to deliver training.

    Obviously more in some areas than others. Having a minimum standard for training has forced many departments out of the good old boy style of training into better, regimented training.

    And I'm sure it has had an effect on membership, and that's my issue. I have a strong feeling that here in LA it would have a significant impact on the older members in most rural VFDs who in many places are the bulk of their manpower. I'm sure that those Chiefs would like to have a younger force but in many places it just isn't in the cards due to demographics.

    All in all, I am very prooud of the fire training available in Wisconsin. It did not happen overnight and it took some tenacious, smart, hard driven fire service leaders to get us where we are. They refused to sit on their hands and say woe is me...
    And neither have ours but the legislature simply refuses to allocate additional money from the insurance rebate and LSU refuses to allocate additional monies from their budget despite the pleas from the fire service.

    I think everybody would like to see an expanded regional role for LSU Fire Training but it's just not in the cards right now.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    FireMedic - I agree wholeheartedly.

    On the topic of not being able to make the training, though, consider someone who works second shift permanently - while all courses are offered in the evening. Here's a person who will be a fantastic daytime resource, but can't be used because they can't get the training.
    I have taken that into consideration and have stated (although maybe not directly) that the availability and delivery of the needed training should be such that people who don't work "business hours" can get it.

    On the other hand, we shouldn't expect training opportunities to be specifically tailored to our individual needs.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I have taken that into consideration and have stated (although maybe not directly) that the availability and delivery of the needed training should be such that people who don't work "business hours" can get it.

    On the other hand, we shouldn't expect training opportunities to be specifically tailored to our individual needs.
    If the course is requested for daytime hours, or weekends only, it will be offered and ran if there are 10 students. The problem seems to be the thought that we only run classes at night. The tech colleges are flexible that way.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I have all the relevant operational certs up to Officer I plus Inspector I/II, Fire & Life Safety Educator I/II and Fire Investigator.
    Good for you. What do you want? A cookie? YOUR SUPPOSED TO HAVE ALL YOUR CERTS!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Same here. Irrelevant.
    Only to the excuse makers like yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup.

    34 years and still posing.
    Says it all.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Seagrave .....

    What will the ISO requirements be for firefighters?

    As I have stated we are not an ISO state, but it's pretty certain that our rating agency will adopt their standards.

    Am I to understand that if members at each of these levels do not have those certifications they will not be counted on the roster?
    Im hopefully not telling tales out of school, but I believe that it the dept. does not comply with the new standards the city or the county will loose ISO points, so the rating will go up. Everyone will still be firefighters but the citizen's insurance will go up.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    My opinions:

    There should be certifications for every job function we perform.
    Water supply, ground ladders, ventilation, exposure protection, interior firefighting, auto extrication, etc.

    As a new person in the department, they should have the opportunity to attend emergency scenes as an observer directly under the supervision of an officer (if the officer is willing on that particular call to take on the responsibility). Nothing worse than having a person sit through >140 hours of training, go to the first real call and find out they just can't take the confusion and chaos of a non-scripted scene.

    If you want to perform a function on the scene, you must be certified, or directly under the supervision of a crew that can perform the task without you. We all know there instances where the impetus is not as great where the new guy can do it without endangering others - just be ready to take over if necessary.

    These certification levels need to be national. All states do is add there own little requirements so that the academy can afford to keep more people on staff and justify more positions.

    Again, these certifications need to be specific enough that a volunteer with a family can get them in little chunks (8-24 hours at a time) until they have reached a level where they are a fully capable member. This gives the volunteer the chance to balance family, job, and passion.

    All certification should be done as certification, not as the PA way where if you show up and have a pulse to a majority of the class, you get a certificate. You must demonstrate knowledge before you get that certification.

    Our reality is that some people do not want to go inside, can't wear a pack, are claustrophobic, or for other reasons don't want to go in. I still want them to have a certification showing that they can set up a water supply, place ladders, etc. Both for my sake in knowing they can, but also to recognize their efforts that they are willing to train and do what they can.
    http://www.sautech.edu/docs/afta/fir...athProgram.pdf This is the Arkansas "patch" program -it is probably similar to what your are talking about. the biggest problem with it is many of the classes can be taught by an in house "certified training officer" - and a large percentage of the CTOs are two year wonders.
    ?

  18. #78
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    I wonder what it would cost to get everyone one the same page?
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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    Iowa has a minimum standard and I think it's next to useless. Our state standard is that you have to be trained to the FF1 level and have 24 hours of continuing ed a year to be an interior firefighter. It does not say the training has to come from state instructors or even that it has to be the actual FF1 course. This is only to be an interior firefighter, there is no minium training for fighting brush fires or working outside at a structure fire or working an MVA.

    I say that this is almost useless because it give to much liberty to departments to say they trained on something when they actually did not. I would like to see at least FF1 Certification as the MINIMUM standard. As others have already stated and as most of us know FF1 is just basic skills so you know what to do when you're told to do something. And with less and less fires these days I think we need a higher level of training so that when we do have to fight a structure fire we can better understand what's happening and how to deal with it.

  20. #80
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Regardless of certifications, I find there are far more firefighters who are not one.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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