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Thread: Are we all firefighters or not?

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And yet your admin has decided certification, that you find so worthless, is a requirement for promotion. Talk about a psychotic episode.
    And I several times have clearly explained why.

    Pre-reqs for advanced training such as Instructor I/II and Officer I/II as well as pre-reqs for technical rescue and advanced training including many classes at the NFA.

    Input into tactical procedures and equipment purchases at the department level.

    Rating points.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    maybe im mis understanding you -but if there was a national standard (such as IFSAC) it would just be a minimum standard , kind of like fire codes - local codes can exceed a state code but they cant be lesser.
    Why do we need IFSAC or ProBoard?

    Why isn't a FFI class that meets the NFA requirements adequate as it fully meets the standards?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There you have it. Wanting all the glory of being a firefighter with none of the accountability.

    Very typical of the vollies I met during my career.
    And how do you figure that?

    I fully support a required entry level class conducted by the department (or a group of departments such as my previous VFD in VT) consistent with the operations of the department up to 50-60 hours with testing at the end of the class to determine learning.

    I fully support mandated weekly training for volunteers with a minimum attendance of at least 75%.

    I fully support cognitive and skills testing within the department to the standards set by the department.

    I fully support a reasonable outside training requirement of 12-24 hours per year (dependent on availability in their area) for all volunteers.

    So where do I not support accountability?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-26-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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  4. #164
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And I several times have clearly explained why.

    Pre-reqs for advanced training such as Instructor I/II and Officer I/II as well as pre-reqs for technical rescue and advanced training including many classes at the NFA.

    Input into tactical procedures and equipment purchases at the department level.

    Rating points.
    There is your absolute hypocrisy bursting through again. In your previously statedopinions certification has no value in your departments, well except when it has value, then it's a good idea. Geezus make up your mind. Your are damn near schizophrenic in your viewpoints.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is your absolute hypocrisy bursting through again. In your previously statedopinions certification has no value in your departments, well except when it has value, then it's a good idea. Geezus make up your mind. Your are damn near schizophrenic in your viewpoints.
    Never have I stated that FFI/II does not have value.

    I have stated that it has less immediate value to entry-level personnel than a rookie program designed and delivered in-house around that specific department's apparatus, tools, response area, operations and department specific procedures.

    And I have stated that it does have value as a broad-based OPTIONAL follow-up training program to the department-specific rookie class as it broadens the new members horizons once they have been trained on tested on department-specific operations.

    It also opens up the door to advanced training requiring FFI certification if a member decides that he wants to pursue advanced training.

    There is no hypocrisy. Rookie training delivered by a specific department to meet it's defined needs is the most effective way to train rookie members. FFI is an excellent followup to that training once department specific rookie training has been delivered.

    At that point any decision to mandate FFI and/or FFII, or any other cert such as D/O or Officer, be left up to the department, not the state. In many cases requiring FFI and FFII will have effects on the department's manpower level. That decision should be left up to the department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-26-2013 at 04:54 PM.
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you could tell me that I can walk into any state with my FFI and have it recognized, I may feel differently about the subject, but that's not the case. You want firefighters certified, and in theory, that's not a bad thing. You say that fire burns the same in Montana as it does in LA. Maybe so. So then why is Fred's FFI or FFII earned in Wisconsin of no value in Florida? Why does he now have to retake the class or retest because he's crossed over state lines if fire burns the same?

    You can't have it both ways.
    How have I wanted it both ways?

    If anything, the lessons learned post 9/11 should have moved you to adopt uniformity. That's what NIMS is all about and why we had to go and change the name of of our ladder companies to truck. This is why we had to completely change how we communicated with each other in radio communication. All of it, supposedly, so that guys in Louisiana (or anywhere) would know what we're talking about when resources come in from other areas to work, and vice versa.

    And, this is only about minimum standards; if a place wants to go and hold themselves to a higher standard, no problem.

    If we have a "truck" come into the city here, on shared services, mutual aid or whatever you want to call it, I want to have a reasonable thought that they are able to put ladders up, wear masks and stretch hose, effectively.
    A certification is there to show that a person, at the very least, is able to demonstrate they know and are able to perform specific tasks to a credentialed third party.
    Last edited by Jasper 45; 11-26-2013 at 05:20 PM.

  7. #167
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Look at EMS - national standards, but precious little reciprocity.
    The National Registry is taking care of that. If a state has adopted the National Registry, a person who has their registry current is able to obtain a license in a given state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    How have I wanted it both ways?

    If anything, the lessons learned post 9/11 should have moved you to adopt uniformity. That's what NIMS is all about and why we had to go and change the name of of our ladder companies to truck. This is why we had to completely change how we communicated with each other in radio communication. All of it, supposedly, so that guys in Louisiana (or anywhere) would know what we're talking about when resources come in from other areas to work, and vice versa.

    And, this is only about minimum standards; if a place wants to go and hold themselves to a higher standard, no problem.

    If we have a "truck" come into the city here, on shared services, mutual aid or whatever you want to call it, I want to have a reasonable thought that they are able to put ladders up, wear masks and stretch hose, effectively.
    A certification is there to show that a person, at the very least, is able to demonstrate they know and are able to perform specific tasks to a credentialed third party.
    We use NIMS on every call.

    All of our members are trained to the 200 level.

    Most of our officers are trained to 300 and all of our Chief officers to 400.

    When my combo department is requested to deploy all of our Firefighters are at least FFI and most commonly all are at least FFII. Officers are almost always Officer I and NIMS 300 and often the drivers are D/O.

    As far as local mutual aid, there are no issues with my combo department performing any assigned task, and we have no issues with any of mutual aid members performing assigned tasks if they come into our area.

    Unfortunately, that may or may not be the case on my VFD depending on who we are sending on the run or receiving MA from. Yes, it's a much more rural area with much less stringent training standards. Could it be better? Sure, but the reality is that standards would limit even more the number of community members who are able to volunteer.

    And no. my VFD does not do disaster deployments. We do not have the manpower who has either the interest to deploy or the work schedule to be available for multi-day deployments, and if we did, it would limit us far too much at home.

    My issue is, and always will be until it's changed is that certification was meant to be a national standard fully transferable from state to state. The problem is that each state had hijacked the certification and added their own wrinkle, or in some cases, have decided to not accept out of state certification at all.

    When any of my members who attain a certification can do as intended and move from state to state, I will be far closer to accepting the concept of a required level of certification. Until then it's nothing but a game that each state has decided to set it's own rules to play.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-26-2013 at 09:22 PM.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    The National Registry is taking care of that. If a state has adopted the National Registry, a person who has their registry current is able to obtain a license in a given state.
    However there are still states where that is not the case.

    Texas is an example. They will accept NR until it expires, then you must test for the Texas certification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When any of my members who attain a certification can do as intended and move from state to state, I will be far closer to accepting the concept of a required level of certification. Until then it's nothing but a game that each state has decided to set it's own rules to play.
    I doubt that it'll change your mind at all.

    You've repeatedly argued against "national certification standards" because you feel that they cover too much "unnecessary" stuff and not enough "important" stuff for local needs. You don't even support "state certification standards" within your own state.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    The National Registry is taking care of that. If a state has adopted the National Registry, a person who has their registry current is able to obtain a license in a given state.
    You can show a recipe for apple pie to NY and it will get you the same credit toward an EMS credential as National Registry...

    Heck, we even feel like we've accomplished something if we can get three regions to adopt the same ALS protocols...
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how do you figure that?

    I fully support cognitive and skills testing within the department to the standards set by the department.

    I fully support a reasonable outside training requirement of 12-24 hours per year (dependent on availability in their area) for all volunteers.

    So where do I not support accountability?
    Asked and answered.

    Leaving the requirements to individual departments isn't a solution. Especially when they have folks like yours calling themselves firefighters. When they aren't.
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    What is a reasonable amount of training for a volunteer? How many hours of quality training?
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
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    9 pages....173 posts....

    Are we all firefighters or not?

    Guess not. Happy Thanksgiving to all!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    What is a reasonable amount of training for a volunteer? How many hours of quality training?
    The same that is required for professionals.

    LEO's manage their reserves in this manner. No reason why the fire service should be any different.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-29-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    What is a reasonable amount of training for a volunteer? How many hours of quality training?
    I believe an introductory training done by the local FD must be done. This would allow those new firefighters to do support functions. Follow that with Firefighter 1 Certification, whether taught by an outside agency or inhouse, as long as it met the standards during testing. Follow that up with a minimum of 6 hours a month of continual training inhouse. In order to be a driver/operator there should be inhouse training on each rig and I believe that certification as a driver/operator should be included. There also need to be refresher and continual training for driver/operators. One of my past FDs had a seperate 3 hour training every month for driver/operators. Nims must be included, Haz-Mat, CPR or whatever med level you run training and refreshers.

    To me that would be the absolute minimum.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-29-2013 at 10:23 AM.
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    The problem with accepting "local standards" is that for every one department that exceeds a national standard, there are 99 that don't.
    ?

  18. #178
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    The problem with accepting "local standards" is that for every one department that exceeds a national standard, there are 99 that don't.
    If this is to me I meant that testing for FF1 Certification must be done in compliance with state or national standards and done by whatever testing gency is responsible in tht state for testing for firefighter certification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If this is to me I meant that testing for FF1 Certification must be done in compliance with state or national standards and done by whatever testing gency is responsible in tht state for testing for firefighter certification.
    wasn't aimed at you -my point is with no national standards -far too much good ole boy cutting a 16 hour class down to four happens a lot. at least around here it does
    ?

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