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Thread: More ammo to rid the fire service of alcohol.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... Wishing I could find the very recent story on the career member in San Francisco driving apparatus drunk while on duty.

    It's not just a volunteer issue.
    Here's why you bringing this up is completely idiotic and not in anyway related to SANCTIONED BY THE FIRE DEPARTMENT alcohol in the fire station. If a career firefighter is drunk, or has been drinking on duty, he is sneaking booze into the firehouse, or drinking in his car, or came in drunk. He did not come into the fire station, go to the department bar and pop a tab on a cold one. Any volly FD that has a bar, or beer in the fridge, or a keg tapped, is sanctioning drinking at the firehouse. It is that simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So now you are begrudging some of the guys that show up for training the right to have a beer or two because it will cut into their availability that evening.

    Nope, just stating emphatically that drinking IN THE FIRE STATION is an old tradition that should have gone away years ago like it did on both of the POC FDs I am on. Offer soda, water, gatorade, for after drills and for those members that want to have a beer they can stop at the local watering hole or go home and have one. The fire station does not have to become a tavern to keep members interested in being a member of the fire department.

    Again, as volunteers it's their choice when they will and will not be available for response.

    Too true. Unfortunately, it often doesn't have a damn thing to do with drinking it has to do with being a complacent, lazy, a z z that likes being called something they really don't care enough about to truly become.
    Absolutely insanely hypocritical that the number one uber safety freak on this forum condones drinking at the fire station and then driving home from there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We also provided free soft drinks after drill for those that did not want a beer.

    Most of the members chose that option, including myself.
    That's not what I asked you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    That's not what I asked you.
    This was your only question ......

    Why not Coke, or Dr Pepper, or Iced Tea?

    I answered it.
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    Nope, just stating emphatically that drinking IN THE FIRE STATION is an old tradition that should have gone away years ago like it did on both of the POC FDs I am on. Offer soda, water, gatorade, for after drills and for those members that want to have a beer they can stop at the local watering hole or go home and have one. The fire station does not have to become a tavern to keep members interested in being a member of the fire department.

    I would hardly call allowing the members to have a beer or two after drill one night a week "turning the fire station into a tavern".

    And yes, to some, having a beer or two after drill with some of the other members may be something that does keep them interested in remaining on the department..



    Too true. Unfortunately, it often doesn't have a damn thing to do with drinking it has to do with being a complacent, lazy, a z z that likes being called something they really don't care enough about to truly become.

    So their choice to not be available for calls one night out of the week, assuming the department has a no-response policy, makes them a lazy a z z?

    Again, as volunteers if we want to make a choice to take a night off, that's certainly not something that any volunteer should ever come under fire for.
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    Meanwhile, this thread (After Hours Pubs) has gone to 250+ pages...
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nope, just stating emphatically that drinking IN THE FIRE STATION is an old tradition that should have gone away years ago like it did on both of the POC FDs I am on. Offer soda, water, gatorade, for after drills and for those members that want to have a beer they can stop at the local watering hole or go home and have one. The fire station does not have to become a tavern to keep members interested in being a member of the fire department.

    I would hardly call allowing the members to have a beer or two after drill one night a week "turning the fire station into a tavern".

    Um, what does a tavern do? Serve alcohol. What is your fire department doing? Serving alcohol. Doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

    And yes, to some, having a beer or two after drill with some of the other members may be something that does keep them interested in remaining on the department..

    That is so absolutely phukking pathetic on so many levels that I am stunned you were stupid enough to actually post it.



    Too true. Unfortunately, it often doesn't have a damn thing to do with drinking it has to do with being a complacent, lazy, a z z that likes being called something they really don't care enough about to truly become.

    So their choice to not be available for calls one night out of the week, assuming the department has a no-response policy, makes them a lazy a z z?

    The problem is with those guys that have to have that beer or more after training to stay interested is if they follow the no drinking response guideline they are probably unable to respond more than that 1 night a week due to drinking. It is pathetic to me how many people can't have a good time, or belong to an organization, especially a volunteer FD, if there is no drinking involved. I am not much of a drinker, which is not to say on occasion I won't have a drink or 2. But the reality for me now is being out of town is a much more likely reason I can't respond than drinking ever has been.

    Again, as volunteers if we want to make a choice to take a night off, that's certainly not something that any volunteer should ever come under fire for.


    I agree that those drinking should not respond. What chafes my *** is people simply deciding not to respond when they haven't been drinking. The lame *** excuses of it is too cold, or I didn't hear the pager, or whatever other nonsense does make them a complacent lazy a z z. Especially when guys like you come on here and sing the praises of volunteers like that. You make so many excuses for the lack of participation on your volly FD that they should name you propaganda minister.
    The things you are supporting here are just ludicrous beyond all belief.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    That is so absolutely phukking pathetic on so many levels that I am stunned you were stupid enough to actually post it.
    I stopped being that stunned with him long ago.

    He and his group of idiots are an embarrassment to the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Absolutely insanely hypocritical that the number one uber safety freak on this forum condones drinking at the fire station and then driving home from there.
    Especially an eye roller considering the fact that he wont make an aggressive interior attack unless he's got 20 guys on air and 20,000 gallons in the front yard.

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    Um, what does a tavern do? Serve alcohol. What is your fire department doing? Serving alcohol. Doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

    Let me make this very clear ... Again. Neither one of my current departments allow alcohol in the fire station at any time, which includes Christmas parties and summer member events.

    I have been involved with one department, 30 years ago, which had a bar for hall rental, and yes, a keg, which was opened for the members only after weekly training. They built a new station shortly after I left and they no longer have a bar or allow alcohol in the station.

    Was it an issue? No. There were controls in place that limited the number of beers and response. You want to call that a tavern, fine.



    That is so absolutely phukking pathetic on so many levels that I am stunned you were stupid enough to actually post it.

    If you want to call having a beer or two after drill, with controls in place, have at it.


    The problem is with those guys that have to have that beer or more after training to stay interested is if they follow the no drinking response guideline they are probably unable to respond more than that 1 night a week due to drinking. It is pathetic to me how many people can't have a good time, or belong to an organization, especially a volunteer FD, if there is no drinking involved. I am not much of a drinker, which is not to say on occasion I won't have a drink or 2. But the reality for me now is being out of town is a much more likely reason I can't respond than drinking ever has been.

    And I agree with much or what you say in terms of members responding, but I do recognize that there will be more motivated members that make more calls them some of the less motivated members that will make fewer calls. Bottom line that is human nature as there will always be members who are more motivated and will make more runs, and quite possibly, those that make less may be missing them because they have been drinking.

    Again, as volunteers if we want to make a choice to take a night off, that's certainly not something that any volunteer should ever come under fire for.

    I agree that those drinking should not respond. What chafes my *** is people simply deciding not to respond when they haven't been drinking. The lame *** excuses of it is too cold, or I didn't hear the pager, or whatever other nonsense does make them a complacent lazy a z z. Especially when guys like you come on here and sing the praises of volunteers like that. You make so many excuses for the lack of participation on your volly FD that they should name you propaganda minister.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF-Andy View Post
    Especially an eye roller considering the fact that he wont make an aggressive interior attack unless he's got 20 guys on air and 20,000 gallons in the front yard.
    Has nothing to do with the current discussion.

    (Besides being inaccurate)
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    Originally Posted by FF-Andy
    Especially an eye roller considering the fact that he wont make an aggressive interior attack unless he's got 20 guys on air and 20,000 gallons in the front yard.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Has nothing to do with the current discussion.

    (Besides being inaccurate)
    So completely relevant that a blind deaf man could make the connection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Actually, my firehouse is still in the process of being rebuilt from Hurricane Sandy damage...but thanks for asking.

    Banquet halls are very common in my area. Many of them are licensed and have fully stocked bars for use of those that rent the hall. And that hall rental income helps keep that fire company building running.

    The fire company I belonged to in PA was the social hall for the town. It had a fully stocked bar and was used quite often by the people who lived in town for many reasons. Can't say I ever heard people from that town linking the firehouse and drinking.

    In my years a Chief, I dealt with 3 incidents of members being on a fire scene under the influence. Yup, none of them involved the firehouse.

    In my experiences with this issue....it had nothing to do with beer at the firehouse. It had all to do with beer and responding.
    Since you are in the minority here I am sure you can tell that this whole concept is regional. Of all the wild ideas I have ever heard float around the kitchen table on how we could raise money for the department, not one time has anyone brought up turning the bay into a saloon. I realize this is a stretch by the way, but that is how crazy this sounds to those of us who are funded the way a vital public service is supposed to be funded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Since you are in the minority here I am sure you can tell that this whole concept is regional. Of all the wild ideas I have ever heard float around the kitchen table on how we could raise money for the department, not one time has anyone brought up turning the bay into a saloon. I realize this is a stretch by the way, but that is how crazy this sounds to those of us who are funded the way a vital public service is supposed to be funded.
    And one could argue that providing a place for the community to hold functions, especially in a rural area where a banquet room in the local fire station may be the only option, is also providing a community service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And one could argue that providing a place for the community to hold functions, especially in a rural area where a banquet room in the local fire station may be the only option, is also providing a community service.
    When that "community service" function becomes the overriding concern of the FIRE DEPARTMENT that is an issue of skewed priorities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Has nothing to do with the current discussion.

    (Besides being inaccurate)
    It might as well be accurate. You've made it very clear you won't do interior attack until an exact scenario is present that you deem safe.

    Those conditions are nearly impossible for even career departments to meet. Yet interior attack is done every day at a lesser level than what you deem necessary without anyone getting injured or killed.

    But that is yet another difference between a real fire department and your gang of idiot posers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It might as well be accurate. You've made it very clear you won't do interior attack until an exact scenario is present that you deem safe.

    Those conditions are nearly impossible for even career departments to meet. Yet interior attack is done every day at a lesser level than what you deem necessary without anyone getting injured or killed.

    But that is yet another difference between a real fire department and your gang of idiot posers.
    We've had this discussion before.

    Move on. Nothing to see here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    When that "community service" function becomes the overriding concern of the FIRE DEPARTMENT that is an issue of skewed priorities.
    Not when the fire department may go to 10 or 15 runs a year.

    Having a banquet hall with a bar available is really a non-issue. the fact is, as Bones have pointed out, there are many places where that facility could host 40, 60, 60 or more events per year bringing in significant revenue to the department. And many times there are no firefighters attending.

    The simple fact is that having a beer or two after drill, if managed does not pose any issues and quite frankly in most places has no affect on the reputation of the fire department.
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    I once did a delivery of equipment for a Massachusetts Fire Academy regional program to a small VFD in the western part of the state. I had to call and arrange the time I would be there as the Chief was out plowing his fields.

    I got to the town, and the Chief showed up driving his tractor to the station. He opened the door for me and told me to drop the equipment in the back room and to lock up when I left, as he still had acreage to till.

    There was a Coke machine in the apparatus bay. Being thirsty, I put my money in the machine and pressed one of the buttons. It wasn't a can of Fresca that came out of the machine, but a can of Miller Lite.

    I left the beer behind and left the station, shaking my head. I am willing to bet that the rest of the machine was filled with beer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not when the fire department may go to 10 or 15 runs a year.

    Having a banquet hall with a bar available is really a non-issue. the fact is, as Bones have pointed out, there are many places where that facility could host 40, 60, 60 or more events per year bringing in significant revenue to the department. And many times there are no firefighters attending.

    The simple fact is that having a beer or two after drill, if managed does not pose any issues and quite frankly in most places has no affect on the reputation of the fire department.
    So let me get this right:

    *No need to be held to a standard because you may never need an included skill
    *No real need for formal training because it may take time and effort
    *Its ok to drink at the firehouse because you only have a few runs

    And you wonder why professional/career firefighters will never take a segment of the volunteer fire service serious?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    I once did a delivery of equipment for a Massachusetts Fire Academy regional program to a small VFD in the western part of the state. I had to call and arrange the time I would be there as the Chief was out plowing his fields.

    I got to the town, and the Chief showed up driving his tractor to the station. He opened the door for me and told me to drop the equipment in the back room and to lock up when I left, as he still had acreage to till.

    There was a Coke machine in the apparatus bay. Being thirsty, I put my money in the machine and pressed one of the buttons. It wasn't a can of Fresca that came out of the machine, but a can of Miller Lite.

    I left the beer behind and left the station, shaking my head. I am willing to bet that the rest of the machine was filled with beer.
    And that would be a situation where there were no controls and no oversight, hence, a significant issue.

    I also remember about 10 years ago walking into a station in upstate NY, as a civilian, where there were several members drinking beer with a SIGNIFICANT number of empties in the trash can. Again no oversight and no controls, and likely members that would have responded if a call had come in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    So let me get this right:

    *No need to be held to a standard because you may never need an included skill
    ... or that standard ... FFI .... may not cover the skills required in that response area.
    *No real need for formal training because it may take time and effort
    I never stated that there is not a need for formal training at the department,
    regional and state level based not on a generic standard but based on the identified and actual needs
    of the department
    .
    *Its ok to drink at the firehouse because you only have a few runs
    Though I don't like the idea, yes, I have no issues with a beer or two being
    consumed in the firehouse under controls and policies at very limited times


    And you wonder why professional/career firefighters will never take a segment of the volunteer fire service serious?
    Quite honestly, I really don't give a damn if the career fire service takes the volunteer fire service seriously.
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    Our Chief took a lot of heat once he and the members got our new station built. Almost immediately people wanted to use the station for weddings and such. The citizens and town officials argued that the firehouse was built with public money and it was their right to party there. He said no and the people threw a fit until he explained that the liability issue was huge. I guess it is a case by case issue as banquet halls seem to be popular and effective in other areas.
    We actually had a Chief and most of the department threaten to quit in my state because the city council was trying to force the department to allow parties with booze in his station, the Chief stood up for what was right even though the town and town council would not.

    I guess I see the banquet hall idea as a different issue from allowing firefighters to drink after a run or training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quite honestly, I really don't give a damn if the career fire service takes the volunteer fire service seriously.
    Yes, you do. That's part of the reason you hate it so much.

    If you condone alcohol in an engine house, there isn't even a place to start having a discussion. Controls or not, discipline or not, the public relations nightmare alone of having a department member involved in an incident of any kind, with department sponsored alcohol in them should be enough to scare the pants off anyone.

    It does matter where the alcohol is consumed. I just have to shake my head at times. Wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Since you are in the minority here I am sure you can tell that this whole concept is regional. Of all the wild ideas I have ever heard float around the kitchen table on how we could raise money for the department, not one time has anyone brought up turning the bay into a saloon. I realize this is a stretch by the way, but that is how crazy this sounds to those of us who are funded the way a vital public service is supposed to be funded.
    In my area, and where I was in PA, the fire company was an incorporated organization. They owned their firehouse and property. The area they served owned the trucks and turnout gear, hose, SCBA, etc. Taxes and such would fund the purchase and maintenance of the trucks, gear, etc. The fire company still had to pay their utilities, building insurance, building maintenance, etc. The fund raisers held were for the company and the company business/property. The vital public service was funded by the public. The building to house that public service had to be funded by the building owners....which was the fire company itself.

    Regional? I guess. I have been in similar firehouses in NJ, PA, NY, FL, and TX.

    Crazy? No, just different. And yes, I know not all areas/fd's are the same.

    I'm not hear to change anyone's mind...just stating an opinion.
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