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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quite honestly, I really don't give a damn if the career fire service takes the volunteer fire service seriously.
    Quite honestly that comes as no surprise to anyone here. Because you have demonstrated on too many occasions to count that you don't give a damn what anyone says unless it agrees 100% with your perverse concept of the fire service.

    I care what my neighboring FDs, think about us, and I care what my friends that are career firefighters think about us. I have worked hard to try and help both of my POC FDs get a reputation as good fire departments filled with trained firefighters.
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    First let me start by saying I am 100% against the consumption of alcohol in the fire station and responding while under the influence.

    However to throw a curve ball into the discussion of the career members on the forums. How many of you all have beer at your union hall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quite honestly, I really don't give a damn if the career fire service takes the volunteer fire service seriously.
    You don't speak for any volunteers that I'd call a Brother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    First let me start by saying I am 100% against the consumption of alcohol in the fire station and responding while under the influence.

    However to throw a curve ball into the discussion of the career members on the forums. How many of you all have beer at your union hall?
    Not even close to the same thing. Not in the firehouse. Not sanctioned by the fire department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not even close to the same thing. Not in the firehouse. Not sanctioned by the fire department.

    I never said that the two were the same. But how is that any different that an incorporated volunteer fire department using a seperate banquet hall that serves as a fund raiser?
    Why is it OK for two union brother to have a beer after a union meeting but different if two volunteer brothers go to the banquet hall and have a beer together (provided that proper staffing is maintained).

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    I never said that the two were the same. But how is that any different that an incorporated volunteer fire department using a seperate banquet hall that serves as a fund raiser?
    Why is it OK for two union brother to have a beer after a union meeting but different if two volunteer brothers go to the banquet hall and have a beer together (provided that proper staffing is maintained).
    In the case of my department, yes we do have a few brews in the fridge at the union hall which has nothing to do with the city I work for. No apparatus are tooled out and in service at the hall, there are no turnouts there, and I have yet to see anybody drink one at our meetings that start at 0830. We also don't rent the place out for social gatherings, hold fundraisers or anything that would cause someone from the general public to be in that building. Everyone there is off duty and should a call come in, are not allowed to respond anyway.
    Last edited by snowball; 12-06-2013 at 12:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    In the case of my department, yes we do have a few brews in the fridge at the union hall which has nothing to do with the city I work for. No apparatus are tooled out and in service at the hall, there are no turnouts there, and I have yet to see anybody drink one at our meetings that start at 0830. We also don't rent the place out for social gatherings, hold fundraisers or anything that would cause someone from the general public to be in that building. Everyone there is off duty and should a call come in, are not allowed to respond anyway.
    I understand that completely as my union hall has the same. Personally I do not agree with it. However the argument of liability gotme thinking what is the liablity on the union should a union member drink that beer and wreck upon leaving how is that different from an incorporated fire company. How is it different for the volunteer company with separate social halls that do not have fire trucks or turn out gear in them. How is two union brothers having a beer after a union meeting different than to volunteers having a beer after a monthly bussiness meeting that have no intention on running calls? All just food for though. I personally do not think that alcohol needs to be in either situation. However I understand that due to sociological demands alcohol has certain social bonding characteristics in our society. Safe guards and responsibility need to be in place for it to be managed properly.
    Also to further add the us navy stocks beer and alcohol on its ships. It is released by the captain of the ship during proper times for the crew. Obviously the guys on watch or duty don't consume it. Different situation entirely but proof that it can be managed properly

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    I never said that the two were the same. But how is that any different that an incorporated volunteer fire department using a seperate banquet hall that serves as a fund raiser?
    Why is it OK for two union brother to have a beer after a union meeting but different if two volunteer brothers go to the banquet hall and have a beer together (provided that proper staffing is maintained).
    501c(3) status
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    Honestly, if it were up to me, there would be no drinking at the union hall, either. Of course tho, there would be no smoking by sworn members, or chew on or off the job, and physical performance standards to stay as an active, line member on a firefighting company.

    The liability for booze in the union hall would be with the local affiliate rather than the city department. If a local wants to absorb the liability, which is the same as if you host a party with alcohol, so-be-it.
    Last edited by Jasper 45; 12-06-2013 at 12:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    501c(3) status
    emergency response status
    expectation of response status
    emergency vehicle with tools capable of emergent response on location

    Honestly, if it were up to me, there would be no drinking at the union hall, either. Of course tho, there would be no smoking by sworn members, or chew and physical performance standards to stay as an active, line member.
    The liability would be with the local affiliate rather than the city department. If a local wants to absorb the liability, which is the same as if you host a party with alcohol, so-be-it.
    Agree completely but sadly my super secret evil plan to take over the world has not be completed yet.
    Some of these volunteer companies are not government entities and the alcohol is not in the same building as the fire trucks. My point being is that this is a complex issue. It ranges from beer in the coke machine behind the fire truck to a department run bar down the street from the fire house.

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    A union does not provide a service to a geographical area of taxpaying civilians. A fire department does, be it a public or private department.

    You can not compare the two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We've had this discussion before.

    Move on. Nothing to see here.
    That's exactly what is said when there is something to see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    I never said that the two were the same. But how is that any different that an incorporated volunteer fire department using a seperate banquet hall that serves as a fund raiser?
    Why is it OK for two union brother to have a beer after a union meeting but different if two volunteer brothers go to the banquet hall and have a beer together (provided that proper staffing is maintained).
    Because the Union Hall isn't owned and operated by the fire department and most certinly isn't located on fire department owned property. The fire firefighters at the Union hall drinking are off duty AND completely seperate from fire department property while drinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    501c(3) status
    emergency response status
    expectation of response status
    emergency vehicle with tools capable of emergent response on location


    Honestly, if it were up to me, there would be no drinking at the union hall, either. Of course tho, there would be no smoking by sworn members, or chew on or off the job, and physical performance standards to stay as an active, line member on a firefighting company.

    The liability for booze in the union hall would be with the local affiliate rather than the city department. If a local wants to absorb the liability, which is the same as if you host a party with alcohol, so-be-it.
    The point being that if a volunteer member decides to have a beer or two after drill and there are controls in place to prevent them from responding they have made a choice to not be available for calls, so the fact that there are trucks in the station becomes irrelevant.

    As a volunteer, even though they may be in the station, there is no expectation that they must respond. it's quite common for me to go to my volunteer station to handle business without planning to respond due to a later commitment, illness or any other reason. it's also common for the volunteers at my combo department to be in the station for various reasons without any plans to respond if a call should come in.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-06-2013 at 09:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The point being that if a volunteer member decides to have a beer or two after drill and there are controls in place to prevent them from responding they have made a choice to not be available for calls, so the fact that there are trucks in the station becomes irrelevant.
    And, once again you missed the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    Some of these volunteer companies are not government entities and the alcohol is not in the same building as the fire trucks. My point being is that this is a complex issue. It ranges from beer in the coke machine behind the fire truck to a department run bar down the street from the fire house.
    I wasn't talking about an on-premise, fire department-run "bar" down the block and, I'm pretty sure no one else was, either.
    As far as I know it was about consuming in, on or around the apparatus floor/meeting area following training, meeting or detail night. Several times it was emphasized that "control" or "policy" is all that is needed to prevent members from responding after consuming. That implied to me it was in the actual engine house, not "down the street". I actually never was thinking that response was an issue after drinking; who would be that stupid? My point was always about liability and perception.

    If no one can see the shi t storm that would ensue, were a member, legally drunk, hitting and injuring someone after consuming on the back step of the rig. Or, influential people of the community that happen to stop in and see the rigs, and are met by several members having a cold one, or two. Well, then I don't know what to say.

    This is a new world we live in. If you don't think we are under a microscope from the public, I will call you stupid. We are in an unprecedented time in our history, in which every aspect of our jobs is under attack, from every direction. This scrutiny includes volunteer and the so-called non-municipal fire departments. They have to get funding from some where, right? We're in a time and place in which people have the attitude of, if it's tax money, they own your *****.

    Public image is everything. Liability is everything. Try and convince someone you're a professional, when there is an open endorsement of drinking in the fire house. It's kind of like trying to tell the public your heart disease is job related, after you smoked a pack a day and are forty pounds over weight.
    Last edited by Jasper 45; 12-06-2013 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As a volunteer, even though they may be in the station, there is no expectation that they must respond. it's quite common for me to go to my volunteer station to handle business without planning to respond due to a later commitment, illness or any other reason. it's also common for the volunteers at my combo department to be in the station for various reasons without any plans to respond if a call should come in.
    Once again, you provide the proof of why your gang of idiots are a joke. Why the VFD programs like yours are a joke.

    When professionals are in the station, they have a duty to respond. Unless there is a mechanical failure or significant injury to one of the personnel.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-06-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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    Let's go back 10 years. This department is roughly 100 miles from me. I have worked fires with these people. They are well trained except back then they had alcohol readily available in the station. In this case the driver responded from a local bar. I went to this young lady's funeral. There were members of the department who still felt that alcohol was OK in the station and everyone should police themselves.

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    A 200 lb man consumes 3 beers in 60 minutes and has a BAC of 0.044.
    A 180 lb man consumes 3 beers in 60 minutes and has a BAC of 0.051.

    That's enough for the responding officer to smell it, and probably enough in most states to leave it up to his discretion as to whether or not the drinker goes to jail. Now imagine the shame of getting carted off to the crossbar motel wearing your VFD tshirt. It makes the papers. It gets talked about amongst fellow firefighters, law enforcement, EMTs and in coffee shops in your town.

    Why would anyone even consider doing this at their fire hall?

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    somtimes the guys at our dept have a beer i dont see the issue if they dont respond?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Once again, you provide the proof of why your gang of idiots are a joke. Why the VFD programs like yours are a joke.

    When professionals are in the station, they have a duty to respond. Unless there is a mechanical failure or significant injury to one of the personnel.
    Volunteer members do not have a legal duty to respond when in the station.

    As volunteers they can chose to not respond.

    The fact is they may have personal or family business that may prevent them from responding, or they simply may not feel like responding. They are under to obligation to act.

    The only time that our volunteer members (at my combo department) are under a requirement to act is when they have told an officer they will be doing a ride-out, or are travelling in a department owned vehicle (in or out of the district). My volunteer department only requires members to act when they are in department vehicles as we do not have ride-out shifts.

    The fact is that volunteers respond when available at their discretion around their personal schedules. Paid personnel are paid to be in the station. To have the expectation that any volunteer must respond while in the station irregardless of personal needs is unrealistic.

    For legal purposes, the law in LA specifies that only members being paid have a legal duty to respond and act.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-06-2013 at 01:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayr49 View Post
    Let's go back 10 years. This department is roughly 100 miles from me. I have worked fires with these people. They are well trained except back then they had alcohol readily available in the station. In this case the driver responded from a local bar. I went to this young lady's funeral. There were members of the department who still felt that alcohol was OK in the station and everyone should police themselves.

    Wyoming Tragedy--Another Inexcusable Act (Do a forum search if the link doesn't work)
    Again, nowhere have I posted that at any time any member should respond to a call or participate in training or any other fire department activity after drinking.

    I remember about 27 years ago when a Norwich College Fire Department engine overturned while responding killing 2 members and severely injuring another 2. The driver, who was a college student, like the entire crew, was drunk. This was a very sad day for me as I while serving as Chief for another college fire department in the state just a couple of years earlier, had kept in contact with the members killed and injured.

    I will repeat that alcohol does not belong in response, training or any other activity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The point being that if a volunteer member decides to have a beer or two after drill and there are controls in place to prevent them from responding they have made a choice to not be available for calls, so the fact that there are trucks in the station becomes irrelevant.

    As a volunteer, even though they may be in the station, there is no expectation that they must respond. it's quite common for me to go to my volunteer station to handle business without planning to respond due to a later commitment, illness or any other reason. it's also common for the volunteers at my combo department to be in the station for various reasons without any plans to respond if a call should come in.
    You have guys, yourself included, at the station and they would not respond if a call for a house fire came in? Good Lord Bobby that is some of the stupidest crap I have ever heard. Further if you are sick and I am at the fire station one of 2 things is going to happen if you show up there, you are going to go home right now, or whatever I am doing is going to sit and I am going home. I don't have any duty to be there if you are such an inconsiderate bastard and show up there sick.

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    Double post folks, nothing to see here. MOVE ALONG!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-06-2013 at 01:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Volunteer members do not have a legal duty to respond when in the station.

    As volunteers they can chose to not respond.

    The fact is they may have personal or family business that may prevent them from responding, or they simply may not feel like responding. They are under to obligation to act.

    The only time that our volunteer members (at my combo department) are under a requirement to act is when they have told an officer they will be doing a ride-out, or are travelling in a department owned vehicle (in or out of the district). My volunteer department only requires members to act when they are in department vehicles as we do not have ride-out shifts.

    The fact is that volunteers respond when available at their discretion around their personal schedules. Paid personnel are paid to be in the station. To have the expectation that any volunteer must respond while in the station irregardless of personal needs is unrealistic.

    For legal purposes, the law in LA specifies that only members being paid have a legal duty to respond and act.
    So let me see if I have this right Jim Bob and a couple of his buddies decide to hang out at the firehouse. A call comes in for a structure fire and they have no obligation, by your very own department standards to respond. How about a MORAL obligation to respond? How about Edna Mae's house is on fire and her grandkids are inside? How about this, I challenge those people to honestly and seriously look me right in the face and tell me they are a dedicated firefighter. If they could stand there and watch the rigs pull out to a reported structure fire and not go that is pathetic beyond all comprehension.

    Honestly, every time you post you make your very own fire departments look more and more pathetic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF-Andy View Post
    ...That's enough for the responding officer to smell it, and probably enough in most states to leave it up to his discretion as to whether or not the drinker goes to jail...
    Policy here is pretty simple. FD vehicle in an accident, driver goes for blood test as soon as PD can get him there. Has nothing to do with whether there is a smell, odd behaviour, nothing. Tested, period.
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