Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 8 of 15 FirstFirst ... 567891011 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 290
Like Tree53Likes

Thread: More ammo to rid the fire service of alcohol.......

  1. #141
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,354

    Default

    Alcohol does not belong in a fire station- whether municipally or privately owned and operated. Period. Anyone who thinks it's ok to have alcohol inside of a fire station should choke themselves.

    Whoever thinks that Alcohol does not belong inside of a privately owned Union Hall should choke themselves.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."


  2. #142
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Alcohol does not belong in a fire station- whether municipally or privately owned and operated. Period. Anyone who thinks it's ok to have alcohol inside of a fire station should choke themselves.

    Whoever thinks that Alcohol does not belong inside of a privately owned Union Hall should choke themselves.
    I agree on the alcohol in the fire house but why so testy about it in the union hall? Please anyone due share with me why do you so adamantly oppose no alcohol in the union hall. I have stated my opinion on why it should not be there please all of you share?

  3. #143
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    You make a lot of assumptions with very little fact.
    No you sir are the one that clearly is missing my point if condoned drinking by a 501c3 volunteer fire department presents such a bad image for the public and politicians why is OK for a professional firefighters labor union to condone the same image to the public and politicians?
    If personal responsibility is entirely acepttable in the union hall but doesn't apply to the volunteer fire department? If the liability is to great for the volunteer fire department (as others have said taking the response component out of the equation in terms of members leaving the station to go home) why is the liability not to great for a union local?

  4. #144
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    114

    Default

    At the end of the day, drinking carries liability and responsibility, whether it is at a fire station, union hall, bar, house, or banquet hall. Firefighters can drink and drive as easily as anyone else, and "Drunk firefighter crashes after returning from union function" is basically just as bad as "drunk firefighter crashes coming home from bar"

    However, only one of those locations is a building that directly provides an emergency service with an expectation of a professional response.

    If John Q. Public runs into a union hall because he sees a fire, there is no expectation that the people inside are in a position to provide emergency service at a professional level. There are no fire trucks at the union hall, there are no hoses. Maybe some off duty firefighters will be there to help until the on duty crews arrive. Maybe there's someone there who can call 911. There will be no news article about how the union hall was unprepared to provide emergency services. That's what fire stations are for.

    If he runs into a volunteer fire station to report a fire, and the 3 volunteers there are just hanging out and enjoying a cold one (and therefore not responding), expectations are different. "Volunteers drinking at station unable to respond to nearby fire" is a news article. John Q. Public expects the an emergency response from there, not to find people drinking beer. If it was my tax funded station I'd be upset.

    There's also the temptation to say "ah, I only had two beers and the fire is right down the street...whats the worst that can happen?"

    There's a difference.
    scfire86 likes this.

  5. #145
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    Apples and oranges are both still a fruit.

    A little touchie about taking alcohol out of the union hall are we. Why? Kind of sounds like those volunteers who are touchie about alcohol in there fire hall.
    If I follow your logic a firefighter that drinks in his own home and gets behind the wheel would be also be guilty of off duty abuse. Drinking in a union hall is a private concern. Drinking in a firehouse is a public concern. I could say the same about thousands of employees who work for private companies whose sole source of revenue are government contracts. Your analogy still fails.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What about fire stations funded by donations, not tax dollars, which is quite common in rural areas?
    What about it? Were the stations built with donations? If it's owned by the city, it's connected to the taxpayer.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #146
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rescue_1 View Post
    At the end of the day, drinking carries liability and responsibility, whether it is at a fire station, union hall, bar, house, or banquet hall. Firefighters can drink and drive as easily as anyone else, and "Drunk firefighter crashes after returning from union function" is basically just as bad as "drunk firefighter crashes coming home from bar"

    However, only one of those locations is a building that directly provides an emergency service with an expectation of a professional response.

    If John Q. Public runs into a union hall because he sees a fire, there is no expectation that the people inside are in a position to provide emergency service at a professional level. There are no fire trucks at the union hall, there are no hoses. Maybe some off duty firefighters will be there to help until the on duty crews arrive. Maybe there's someone there who can call 911. There will be no news article about how the union hall was unprepared to provide emergency services. That's what fire stations are for.

    If he runs into a volunteer fire station to report a fire, and the 3 volunteers there are just hanging out and enjoying a cold one (and therefore not responding), expectations are different. "Volunteers drinking at station unable to respond to nearby fire" is a news article. John Q. Public expects the an emergency response from there, not to find people drinking beer. If it was my tax funded station I'd be upset.

    There's also the temptation to say "ah, I only had two beers and the fire is right down the street...whats the worst that can happen?"

    There's a difference.
    Excellent post.
    IAFF

  7. #147
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If I follow your logic a firefighter that drinks in his own home and gets behind the wheel would be also be guilty of off duty abuse. Drinking in a union hall is a private concern. Drinking in a firehouse is a public concern. I could say the same about thousands of employees who work for private companies whose sole source of revenue are government contracts. Your analogy still fails.



    What about it? Were the stations built with donations? If it's owned by the city, it's connected to the taxpayer.
    Not so.

    If the department is funded by private donations it's more than likely not connected to the municipality. It's almost always going to be an independent company or corporation, making the building a private, not a public building.

    Such was the case with my previous VFD in VT. We were a non-profit corporation that was owned by the members. The town contracted with us to provide fire protection but we had no connection to the municipality and they could not manage our operations in any way.

    This was not an uncommon model in VT.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #148
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rescue_1 View Post
    At the end of the day, drinking carries liability and responsibility, whether it is at a fire station, union hall, bar, house, or banquet hall. Firefighters can drink and drive as easily as anyone else, and "Drunk firefighter crashes after returning from union function" is basically just as bad as "drunk firefighter crashes coming home from bar"

    However, only one of those locations is a building that directly provides an emergency service with an expectation of a professional response.

    If John Q. Public runs into a union hall because he sees a fire, there is no expectation that the people inside are in a position to provide emergency service at a professional level. There are no fire trucks at the union hall, there are no hoses. Maybe some off duty firefighters will be there to help until the on duty crews arrive. Maybe there's someone there who can call 911. There will be no news article about how the union hall was unprepared to provide emergency services. That's what fire stations are for.

    If he runs into a volunteer fire station to report a fire, and the 3 volunteers there are just hanging out and enjoying a cold one (and therefore not responding), expectations are different. "Volunteers drinking at station unable to respond to nearby fire" is a news article. John Q. Public expects the an emergency response from there, not to find people drinking beer. If it was my tax funded station I'd be upset.

    There's also the temptation to say "ah, I only had two beers and the fire is right down the street...whats the worst that can happen?"

    There's a difference.
    The difference is that I have never stated that members should be able to drink anytime they want in the fire station.

    I have issues with that.

    I did say that while I'm not a big fan of it, I have minimal issues with some of the crew having a beer or two after drill, when there are other non-drinking members in the house to handle responses and walk-ins, and the area in which the drinking is occurring is not within an area in which the public would walk-through.

    As far as being on duty, volunteers are technically not on duty even when at the station, unless they choose to respond.

    Just out of curiosity, would it look it look any better if somebody walked in and the 3 volunteers couldn't respond because of personal commitments?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-09-2013 at 10:47 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #149
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,513

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    No you sir are the one that clearly is missing my point if condoned drinking by a 501c3 volunteer fire department presents such a bad image for the public and politicians why is OK for a professional firefighters labor union to condone the same image to the public and politicians?
    If personal responsibility is entirely acepttable in the union hall but doesn't apply to the volunteer fire department? If the liability is to great for the volunteer fire department (as others have said taking the response component out of the equation in terms of members leaving the station to go home) why is the liability not to great for a union local?
    So this is your stance, give me one example of how my union hall is at all in the same league as the local fire station? Do we respond from there-no. Are we on duty while attending a union meeting-no. Does the public even know that it's our union hall-no. We share with the pipe fitters local. Is their city owned equipment there-no. Is it city property-no. Is the city liable in any way shape or form-no.
    If you can't distinguish the difference between what goes on at a union hall compared to what a reasonable expectation of service at a volunteer fire house, I'm beginning to wonder if you are even a firefighter....
    I would bet that if you polled, most professional firefighters, they would say their union hall is more akin to an elks lodge or VFW as opposed to a fire house. With the exact same resources available.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 12-09-2013 at 10:25 AM.
    DeputyChiefGonzo likes this.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  10. #150
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not so.

    If the department is funded by private donations it's more than likely not connected to the municipality. It's almost always going to be an independent company or corporation, making the building a private, not a public building.

    Such was the case with my previous VFD in VT. We were a non-profit corporation that was owned by the members. The town contracted with us to provide fire protection but we had no connection to the municipality and they could not manage our operations in any way.

    This was not an uncommon model in VT.
    Try not to be a complete moron your entire life. I know you've worked really hard at it, but it's time to let it go.

    If the FD was funded via private donations then it is even more important that there be no indicators of impropriety like drinking on the premises.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-09-2013 at 12:13 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  11. #151
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    So this is your stance, give me one example of how my union hall is at all in the same league as the local fire station? Do we respond from there-no. Are we on duty while attending a union meeting-no. Does the public even know that it's our union hall-no. We share with the pipe fitters local. Is their city owned equipment there-no. Is it city property-no. Is the city liable in any way shape or form-no.
    If you can't distinguish the difference between what goes on at a union hall compared to what a reasonable expectation of service at a volunteer fire house, I'm beginning to wonder if you are even a firefighter....
    I would bet that if you polled, most professional firefighters, they would say their union hall is more akin to an elks lodge or VFW as opposed to a fire house. With the exact same resources available.
    More importantly I can count on one hand the number of times I actually saw union officers or any of the membership drinking in ours. The place closed at 4p and was in a neighborhood that did not have easy access to a main street or freeway. While the opportunity existed it was rarely if ever utilized.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  12. #152
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,646

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    ...Is their city owned equipment there-no. Is it city property-no. Is the city liable in any way shape or form-no...
    My station....

    Is their city owned equipment there-yes (in 1/3 of the building).
    Is it city property-no.
    Is the city liable in any way shape or form-no.


    And an honest question on a side track.....Union halls. Is the Union hall purchased/rented through union dues? Never thought about it before this discussion and I'm just curious. Has nothing to do with the conversation, just something else I don't know.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #153
    Forum Member Snarff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    We have a picture in the hallway or our firehouse. It was taken in our day room, A former chief and at the time governor of Virginia are drinking some of the chiefs homemade wine. Different times I guess.

    I never even knew firehouses had alcohol served in them till I met some guys from up north. At the time I honestly though they were messing with me. I don't think alcohol should be in the fire house period, union halls or other halls I don't see a problem with it. Those are not public safety buildings and no one should expect those people in them to do more than call 911. I dont run into a linemen's union hall when my power is out and expect them to jump into a bucket truck and fix it.

  14. #154
    Forum Member Snarff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    .............
    Last edited by Snarff; 12-09-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  15. #155
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,783

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    And an honest question on a side track.....Union halls. Is the Union hall purchased/rented through union dues? Never thought about it before this discussion and I'm just curious. Has nothing to do with the conversation, just something else I don't know.
    Yes. Our dues go towards everything to fund the local. We (local-affiliate) pay for the building and all associated cost. We pay for our principle officers and executive board members to work for the local. We also pay to reimburse the city for any cost to release members of the negotiating committee or other local members to work on behalf of the local, for whatever reason, if said members need to be released from duty.
    We also pay for all food and beverages served during union meetings; this is usually pizza, wings, beer and soda for evening meetings and donuts, coffee, etc... for an AM meeting.

  16. #156
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    26

    Default

    My department hasn't had any alcohol for at least 10 years now, not long enough in my eyes. But anyway, we are still fighting the old stereotype of the guys sitting down at the station getting drunk. On a lot of calls, I am explaining to people that there is no alcohol in our station and they say bull****, we know you drink down there. It takes a long time to get that image out of peoples minds.

  17. #157
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    More importantly I can count on one hand the number of times I actually saw union officers or any of the membership drinking in ours. The place closed at 4p and was in a neighborhood that did not have easy access to a main street or freeway. While the opportunity existed it was rarely if ever utilized.
    Kinda like ours. There is actually more drinking going on outside the walls of our hall by the drunk homeless dudes. The gutters run heavy with pee. Never had a public complaint about that. We just request an engine to swing by for a wash down in the event that a turd gets cut loose on the sidewalk, or butt mud gets sprayed on the stucco.
    IAFF

  18. #158
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Let me type slower for you this time so maybe you will understand it this time. If that firefighter drinks at a bar or at home and then is so damn stupid as to respond HE holds the lability for his actions, and yes the fire department will still get burned by his idiocy too. The difference is if he drinks at the fire station or fire station banquet hall, or whatever, with alcohol supplied by the fire department and sanctioned by the fire department, guess where the liability rests? Whether he responds to a call or kills little Betty Loo Who on the way home from the fire station after drinking. Right back on the FD that supplied tha alcohol, deemed it an appropriate behavior, and has a history of that behavior.
    Our insurance policy covers us for a person leaving the hall after serving alcohol. The same as a bar or other establishment that has alcohol. We do not condone members coming to the hall for social drinking. The only time that is allowed is at the appreciation dinner (again we have another department on stand by with a duty crew made of those that will not be drinking as well). In a place like here, it doesn't matter where you were drinking, people still know that you are a member of the fire department, teacher at the school, or whatever and when you have an accident the stigma is directly attached whether the drinking was there or at your house. It really makes no difference here.

    IF that drinking takes place in another building, not attached to the fire station and drinking is ONLY allowed as part of the fundraiser, I have no issue with that.
    I must not have been clear and I apologize. We own one building. There is a removable partition the separates the apparatus bay from the social hall. There is only the one building.

    My problem comes in with people justifying drinking BY FIREFIGHTERS, after trainings, for socializing,or after a call, IN THE FIREHOUSE. The further statement by one here that if drinking after training was discntinued that they would lose members to me is an absolutely pathetic state of affairs. I did not become a volunteer firefighter to be able to drink beer for free and if anyone on this forum did I can only view them with utter and complete contempt.
    Here I will completely agree with you. My only real disagreement with you is your blanket statement of "no alcohol in a firehouse, no matter what!" For some of us, the firehouse is also the fundraising building, community center, etc, and some events will include alcohol.

    We will never agree on this.
    Not totally

  19. #159
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What about fire stations funded by donations, not tax dollars, which is quite common in rural areas?
    Then they probably don't have the extra funds to pay for booze anyway.

    Next stupid argument please.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  20. #160
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This point was clarified earlier. The union is liable, not the governmental entity that funds the FD with tax dollars.
    Evidently you do not get to see the workings of many departments in other areas of the country.

    The department to my west receives no tax money whatsoever. They own all equipment, apparatus, and the building. They have a contract with the municipality to provide coverage.

    We receive tax money directly. Enough to pay our utilities and maintenance on the vehicles. We are set up so that we own everything, unless we dissolve - at which point the municipality would be given the vehicles only. They are not in any way legally liable for the actions of the fire department - only that they have a contract with one to provide for the safety of the people of the township.

    To are north are "Independent Fire Companies". They are in a fire district that receives tax dollars and then through a board of directors is authorized funding through a budget. Again, the municipality is not legally responsible for the actions of the department.

    In all 3 cases the department would be legally responsible for the actions, not the government agency.


    And in the other post where the department has to tell others why some didn't make it, we have done that. After an appreciation dinner, we had a few that were still at the hall and were told to stay there. We then were asked by some of the mutual aid why they didn't see some of the guys. We told them that they were drinking at the banquet and were not allowed to respond. It is not that hard to do really. It is our SOP that if our hall is on a fire that we bring in mutual aid for stand by coverage, so the case of a patient going straight to the hall was covered as well.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Alcohol & the Fire Service = STUPIDITY
    By FWDbuff in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 11-22-2011, 08:22 AM
  2. Live ammo at fires...
    By KevinFFVFD in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 06-15-2008, 07:52 PM
  3. .45 ammo question....
    By KevinFFVFD in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-22-2008, 03:59 PM
  4. SAFER R&R Ammo....
    By BC79er_OLDDELETE in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-25-2007, 03:31 PM
  5. Alcohol & The Fire Service
    By ffemt1450 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-27-2003, 12:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts