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Thread: Working Part Time Fire...Full Time guys getting time cut...

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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Default Working Part Time Fire...Full Time guys getting time cut...

    For the last few months I have been working part time for a fire department I previously worked full time for. Covering sick days, vacation, last minute stuff, etc. This is a common theme around here and most fire departments pay little to no non-regular overtime to full time employees.

    Recently this department has entertained the idea of starting a Kelly day system, which would basically cut out all mandatory overtime for the full time employees. This would also cut the salary of each guy around $2,000 annually. They expect the time to be covered with part time employees, as a cost saving measure.

    So, what would you do? I have a personal issue with working for a guy who is now losing money due to a cost saving measure. Thoughts?
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    For the last few months I have been working part time for a fire department I previously worked full time for. Covering sick days, vacation, last minute stuff, etc. This is a common theme around here and most fire departments pay little to no non-regular overtime to full time employees.

    Recently this department has entertained the idea of starting a Kelly day system, which would basically cut out all mandatory overtime for the full time employees. This would also cut the salary of each guy around $2,000 annually. They expect the time to be covered with part time employees, as a cost saving measure.

    So, what would you do? I have a personal issue with working for a guy who is now losing money due to a cost saving measure. Thoughts?
    There are 2 distinctly different trains of thought to look at. Neither of which is going to be completely satisfactory.

    1) Continue to work the part-time hours because either way they will be available. The down side here is you may, and probably will, be seen as part of the problem.

    2) Make a stand and say no, you won't work those extra hours. The story here is that more than likely someone else will pick up the hours anyway. So while you may feel better about yourself the situation hasn't changed.

    Probably not the answers you were looking for. It is definitely a dilema. Not knowing your situation financially, maybe the answer is to talk to the full timers and see what they think and use that as your guide.
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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There are 2 distinctly different trains of thought to look at. Neither of which is going to be completely satisfactory.

    1) Continue to work the part-time hours because either way they will be available. The down side here is you may, and probably will, be seen as part of the problem.

    2) Make a stand and say no, you won't work those extra hours. The story here is that more than likely someone else will pick up the hours anyway. So while you may feel better about yourself the situation hasn't changed.

    Probably not the answers you were looking for. It is definitely a dilema. Not knowing your situation financially, maybe the answer is to talk to the full timers and see what they think and use that as your guide.
    Thanks for the reply. I am not working there for financial reasons. By any means.

    Both of your options are the ones I came up with. Along with quitting all together. I am going to talk to a few guys and see what their thoughts on the issue are.
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    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    I would certainly have a hard time taking money out of the full-time guy's pockets and would have to decline the additional hours.
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    I guess one good thing is that you have worked there before full and part, so you are not new and trying to move in

    So looks like you might get a little more break

    Sounds like it is up to you if you do not need the money, maybe try it for a month or two if they do the change and see how you feel after that

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I would certainly have a hard time taking money out of the full-time guy's pockets and would have to decline the additional hours.
    I could see this point if they specifically came to him and said to eliminate OT we want YOU to work these extra hours. That doesn't seem to be the case. It seems that whether he does it or not, someone will because this is the admin's plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I would certainly have a hard time taking money out of the full-time guy's pockets and would have to decline the additional hours.
    I agree. I would not do it either. There may be some that will do it. You can't control what others do so do what you think is right and take comfort in that.

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    It may or may not be similar, but the local paid department runs a similar system. The way that it was explained is that in order to maintain their minimum staffing, the overtime expenses had to be reduced. No full time firefighters were furloughed, but several did lose out on some overtime. The duty crew sizes were maintained. In the end they all decided that it was better to have the full crew on initial dispatch.

    If it is a budget issue, part time employees to fill in is cheaper than overtime for a full time employee. They have been good about trying to get the guys as much OT as they can, it just isn't scheduled as much as it used to be.

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    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    What are the odds the decision will be made to have all part-time guys do the work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    For the last few months I have been working part time for a fire department I previously worked full time for. Covering sick days, vacation, last minute stuff, etc. This is a common theme around here and most fire departments pay little to no non-regular overtime to full time employees.

    Recently this department has entertained the idea of starting a Kelly day system, which would basically cut out all mandatory overtime for the full time employees. This would also cut the salary of each guy around $2,000 annually. They expect the time to be covered with part time employees, as a cost saving measure.

    So, what would you do? I have a personal issue with working for a guy who is now losing money due to a cost saving measure. Thoughts?
    No offense but I'd have a hard time with anyone working part time where the reason the part time schedule exists is to deny OT pay to the FT'ers. They must see the need for minimum staffing (or had it shown to them) but are willing to create a workplace where they don't value the FT employees enought o work out something other than bring in someone else. While it wouldn't be personal, I'd think you'd be treated as the scab they haired you to be. Now on top of already covering staffing shortages with other people, they want to cut pay and use the part timers? I can't imageine the guys wanting to give any more than the absolute minimum to the employer in a place like that, maybe not let is effect the job outside the bricks, but inside? I take it there's no Union?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    What are the odds the decision will be made to have all part-time guys do the work?
    Apparently those odds are getting better all the time for the administrators.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    What are the odds the decision will be made to have all part-time guys do the work?
    That seemed to be the point that GTRider245 was making. To eliminate OT the part-timers will work those hours.
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    Are the Firefighters there members of a Union? They would have a stance on part-timers. I'd ask the members. On the flip side, a Kelly Day also gives the guys another day to work a part-time job too. It's good that you are thinking about how this affects the guys. See what the guys say and let that be your guide.

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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    What are the odds the decision will be made to have all part-time guys do the work?
    Little to none. This is a 13 man department (full time) with 4 part timers.
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    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    That seemed to be the point that GTRider245 was making. To eliminate OT the part-timers will work those hours.
    I guess my thinking was more along the lines of making everybody a part-time employee. If they are able to get part-timers to take all of the over time, why not have them do all of the time?

    The times we live in now have me paranoid, where nothing is beyond becoming a reality...
    Last edited by Jasper 45; 12-05-2013 at 04:32 PM.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Are the Firefighters there members of a Union? They would have a stance on part-timers. I'd ask the members. On the flip side, a Kelly Day also gives the guys another day to work a part-time job too. It's good that you are thinking about how this affects the guys. See what the guys say and let that be your guide.
    Um, did any of you guys even read the original post? He has been working there already as a part-timer. The part-timers cover sick days, vacations, and last minute staffing needs. So it would seem there is a history of part-timers there. the only change he is asking about is whether he should keep working there part-time if the admin plans to use the part-timers to eliminate the majority of OT. The money the full timers would be losing is OT pay not regular pay. There is really no guarantee of overtime anyways.

    I am sure this will be unusual in the career fire service but I didn't give a damn about working OT and in fact never worked one day of OT in my career. The past few years when I probably would have worked a few they cut our minimum staffing so low that the occasions where OT was even needed shrunk so much that I believe in my last year I had 3 chances at OT and I was unable to take any of them.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-05-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    No offense but I'd have a hard time with anyone working part time where the reason the part time schedule exists is to deny OT pay to the FT'ers. They must see the need for minimum staffing (or had it shown to them) but are willing to create a workplace where they don't value the FT employees enought o work out something other than bring in someone else. While it wouldn't be personal, I'd think you'd be treated as the scab they haired you to be. Now on top of already covering staffing shortages with other people, they want to cut pay and use the part timers? I can't imageine the guys wanting to give any more than the absolute minimum to the employer in a place like that, maybe not let is effect the job outside the bricks, but inside? I take it there's no Union?
    No union. Even if there was they wouldn't have much of a say in this ordeal.

    This department runs a four man shift, 24/48. Staff two stations, two guys each. Daytime supervisor M-F.

    On one hand the time can be worked by part timers to ensure minimum staffing is met. If I had to bet I would say that if no part timer is available AND the daytime admin. can't cover it, they will drop a man from the shfit. So we have a safety issue.

    On the other is the issue I have already talked about, with a P/T guy basically taking money from the F/T guy's pocket.

    Once again, before the working of sick/vac/off days was no problem. The F/T guys were never offered these hours and then had it taken away from them. To me this is different with the Kelly Day.

    I have no doubt this will be a huge hit to morale and more than likely will not be worth it when they see what effects will be had on recruitment and retention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post

    I have no doubt this will be a huge hit to morale and more than likely will not be worth it when they see what effects will be had on recruitment and retention.
    I think you've answered your own question. Why would you wan to be party to admins destruction of the dept? What may have been a non-issue before could change rapidly when guys start losing money and hitting the wall morale-wise. Side with the Brothers.

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    It pretty much comes down to your gut and how comfortable you are working in that situation.

    Our full-time personal are not allowed to work overtime. All days off, sick days and extra shifts are covered by qualified volunteer members.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-06-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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    The FD in question is looking to f--- their full-timers.

    You working there part-time will help them do it.

    It would be an easy decision for me.
    MemphisE34a and RFDACM02 like this.

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