1. #1
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    Default What knot is this?

    Is this just a fisherman tied after wrapping around a carabiner?

    Is this acceptable in actual practice or is it only used in this image for display purposes?

    Would you use it over a figure eight?



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  2. #2
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    Looks like a scaffold/barrel knot.
    http://www.irata.org/pdf downloads/S... Sept 2013.pdf


    Only time I might use that knot is when I need a short compact knot, otherwise I go with the 8.
    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 02-03-2014 at 07:07 PM.

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    So the properly tied one is acceptable for a rescue load if you needed a smaller knot?

    I was mostly asking for our 4:1 system we keep in a rope bag, a figure 8 seems very bulky tied in the middle of that.


    Also, why on earth would anyone think it was a good idea to tie it the "improper" way shown in that text? That knot would slip out under 5 lbs of load...

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    The 4:1 is a perfect example where that knot is useful. As for your second question, not sure. Perhaps people misunderstand the knot and tie it the improper way.

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    I'm familiar with the knot, called a Double Overhand Loop, around here and use it frequently when space is tight and extra inches count, when you run short of carabiners and need to attach the end of the rope to an object, etc. I would use it in place of a Figure 8 on a Bight because the Double Overhand Loop slides and binds tightly around an object and takes less room than an 8. The example of tying the knot wrong and becoming a death knot is the first time I've seen it tied like that. I'll be sure the students and fellow rescuers understand the problem and do it right. The only real drawback I have with the knot is that on occasion it cinches down so tight that it is very hard to untie and I might have to "shorten" the rope slightly with my knife in an emergency, otherwise I use my marlin spike and patience.

    Mike Dunn

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    Great knot for the 4:1, but also utilized a lot in the rope access world. Especially useful when you want to hold a carabiner in an oriented position. So we use different lanyards attached to our harnesses for a variety of purposes. It is helpful to have some of the lanyards attached to a carabiner with a barrel knot cinched down tight, keeping the carabiner oriented properly to clip in and out of attachments easily and efficiently.

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    Rsqman actually brought it up what I was about to ask.

    On a 4:1, I assume it's best to still use a carabiner since with the weight if that haul it must cinch down pretty darn right right?

    We have the double shiv pullies with the attachment point on either side. Only one swivels to open the pullies of course. (what's the actual name for the hole the carabiner goes through?)

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    That attachment on the bottom of a pulley is the becket… is that what you're asking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue Dave View Post
    That attachment on the bottom of a pulley is the becket… is that what you're asking?
    Thats it! thanks.

    so is it more practical to use a carabiner between the becket and the knot or affix the knot directly to the becket? A 4:1 would support a large load potentially would that probably make the knot extremely hard to remove without the carabiner?


    we use these pullies




    side note, are both ends referred to as a becket or only the fixed end?
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 02-04-2014 at 09:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Thats it! thanks.

    so is it more practical to use a carabiner between the becket and the knot or affix the knot directly to the becket? A 4:1 would support a large load potentially would that probably make the knot extremely hard to remove without the carabiner? we use these pullies




    side note, are both ends referred to as a becket or only the fixed end?

    The easiest way to rig it to gain the most haul distance is to move the carabner from the becket up to the top of the top pulley. This will allow you to "2-block" the pulleys, a very bad thing in cranes but a great thing for gaining 10" to 14" of lift in rope rescue. Then you can use a standard Figure 8 on a Bight with a carabiner instead of cinching down the Double Overhand Loop. I would be very cautious about tying the Double Overhand Loop around the becket. This is the thinnest (sharpest) part of the pulley and while I haven't tested it to see what force it takes to make it fail yet, I would certainly worry about it with a heavy lift.

    Technically, the little hangy down part on a double pulley that has one is called a Becket......or little hangy down part. Whichever name is easiest to remember. If you can't remember the name for the part but can rig the system right when it counts then I don't much care what you call it.

    Mike

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    Is it acceptable to use the barrel knot in place of the fig 8, on the anchoring carabiner like you said to save haul distance? Our rope is 1/2 or 5/8, a figure 8 is very bulky and difficult to tie precisely to eliminate clutter.

    Our 4:1 is primarily carried for the Denver drill over a window so the tighter I can make the 4:1 the better.

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    We have the old version of this system

    http://www.rescuedirect.com/Merchant...egory_Code=CMC

    It clearly utilizes the barrel knot on the Becker, would this imply it's safe to use in our setup and eliminate the carabiner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    We have the old version of this system

    http://www.rescuedirect.com/Merchant...egory_Code=CMC

    It clearly utilizes the barrel knot on the Becker, would this imply it's safe to use in our setup and eliminate the carabiner?
    The knot they have on the becket is protected from the sharp edge by a heavy duty plastic sleeve. My preference would still be to tie the knot on the very top carabiner and keep it off the becket. This will give the most compact package for the system.

    Even though CMC is a highly respectable company I hesitate to imply that anything is "safe" from just looking at a catalog picture. I have found way too many mistakes in rigging/printing/spelling, etc., over the years in rescue literature to put blind trust in it. For example, "Wilderness Search & Rescue" by Tim Setnicka shows a picture of a brake bar rack with the rope improperly laced through the bars and I have seen other agencies use that picture as an example of how to rig a rack.

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    Ah you are correct there is a sleeve on there, couldn't see it from my little phone screen.


    So is how I have it set up below acceptable? Or should it really be a figure 8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Ah you are correct there is a sleeve on there, couldn't see it from my little phone screen.


    So is how I have it set up below acceptable? Or should it really be a figure 8.
    Attachment 23294
    Just like you have it in the pic will work just fine. Even if the knot cinches down you can untie it easily by sliding it off the open gate of the carabiner.

    I reeve my pulleys slightly different but the way you have yours is not wrong. I orient my pulleys Becket to Becket with one pulley horizontal (flat on the table) and one vertical (standing on it's edge on the table). I attach the end of the rope with the carabiner on it to a Becket. It doesn't matter which one. Run the rope through one of the opposite pulley wheels (again, it doesn't matter which one yet). Now everything counts.....keep the rope parallel and run through the rest of the pulleys.

    For example, if the rope runs from the Becket of the top pulley which is vertical and then through the bottom wheel of the other pulley which is horizontal the rope will then pass from the bottom up through the next wheel. It comes out the top of that wheel so the rope goes top down when it gets to the next wheel. When you finish reeving the blocks there will be two parallel ropes on one side and two on the other side with no crossed ropes.

    At that point pick up the rig and hold the it vertically with the knot on the top pulley Becket. Unhook the carabiner from the Becket and move it to the top like you have it in your picture.

    Holding it like this allows you to see the ropes and keep them parallel while moving the carabiner to the top. Rigging it like you show causes the top block to tilt slightly to the right causing more friction in the system. Rigging like I described eliminates that extra friction. Realistically, unless you are trying to lift a a car with it the friction will be negligible.

    Besides, if you are using it for a Denver Drill then there very likely will be a little adrenaline pumping and enough force will be put into the haul rope to easily overcome the friction.

    If you go from 5/8" rope to 1/2" rope then you can use smaller double pulleys and gain even more lifting height with the system. Sometimes inches count.

    Hope that helps. If I confused you with my description of reeving the blocks, let me know and I'll see if I can figure out how to attach a picture on this thing. Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm an old firefighter who definitely wasn't raised in the electronic age and no, I don't have a smart phone.....LOL

    Mike

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    A picture would be great, I've been trying to figure out how to make them paralell...

    It's actually 1/2" I measured it

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    Nevermind, I think I have it. Drawing it out in my head haven't tried it yet.

    What your saying is the finished pulley system, the two double shivs are actually turned perpendicular to eachother. Makes sense now very cool idea definitely using it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Nevermind, I think I have it. Drawing it out in my head haven't tried it yet.

    What your saying is the finished pulley system, the two double shivs are actually turned perpendicular to eachother. Makes sense now very cool idea definitely using it.
    Yep, it sounds like you got it. The pulleys are turned perpendicular to each other. I find it easier to build it on a table and always start out by attaching the end of the rope to a becket. Once you make the first pass of rope through the first pulley keep the ropes parallel and the system essentially builds itself. I find most students cross up the ropes when moving the knot end up to the top pulley because they leave it laying on a table. Hold it up vertically and it's easy to see where the knot needs to go to keep everything parallel.

    Try rigging it by attaching the knot to the vertically oriented pulley and then break it down and attach the knot to the horizontally oriented pulley. It comes out the same either way.....as long as you remember....ropes....parallel.

    Good luck,

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    A picture would be great, I've been trying to figure out how to make them paralell...

    It's actually 1/2" I measured it
    If you're looking for a term... with the pulleys oriented 90 degrees to each other, it's called a "reverse reeve".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Ah you are correct there is a sleeve on there, couldn't see it from my little phone screen.


    So is how I have it set up below acceptable? Or should it really be a figure 8.
    Attachment 23294
    The two primary reasons for using the "double overhand noose" (DON) or "... choker", as was mentioned up-thread... tends to stay at the bottom of the carabiner, which greatly reduces chances for cross loading the biner... and, short gain. Neither of these reasons are really at issue re the use of it in your image. The place where the DON really shines is at the belay carabiner used at the connection to the victim. It is quite common to see a terminal knot, such as an 8-on-a-bight, used with a carabiner to make the belay connection to the victim. But that is less than ideal, since it leaves the carabiner prone to flippy-floppy (technical term) side loading action.

    As for attaching the rope directly on the becket... not the cleanest rigging. At the very least, thread an inch long piece of tubular webbing onto the cord, and position it at the becket for some bit of padding. Another option is to get a bolt, washers, and nut. Connect the rope to the becket with them.

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    To overcome the sharp edge, how about using a screw link off the becket and attaching the rope on the link?

    Not seeing the nut and bolt thing, you must be using humor Eric

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    To overcome the sharp edge, how about using a screw link off the becket and attaching the rope on the link?

    Not seeing the nut and bolt thing, you must be using humor Eric
    Yes, screw link is another viable option.

    Using a bolt is legit. Through the "eye" of a terminal knot such as 8 or bowline.

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    Thanks for all the great responses.

    I was able to get the system rigged parrelel like ResQ suggested. What an improvement. il never do it the other way again. I enjoy, as I'm sure anyone does, a clean looking system without the ropes crossing it's much more appealing.

    I ended up just tying the double overhand and using a carabiner. It really only adds 3" or so not a make or break issue. The figure 8 plus the carabiner was the killer.

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