1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default Optimal knot for belay device after tensionless hitch?

    I feel like im keeping you guys busy this week


    Anyway, what knot would be most optimal to use for attaching a belay device after anchoring in with a tensionless hitch?

    When I use an anchor strap obviously I just clip right into the strap and off we go. Would it be entirely acceptable to just anchor in with the hitch, and tie a butterfly a few feet out to attach the belay device?

    A directional 8 I guess would work as well but I can't see a reason to bother when the butterfly is just as good and easier to tie.

    I just want to make sure this is an acceptable method.

    I also want to add that in this scenario, you have no other ropes available to you. This is based on a firefighter roof rope, there won't be a rescue equipment cache 10 feet away with everything you could
    want.


    Heres my god awful cartoon drawing.

    It would go, tensionless hitch, butterfly with rescue eight, rest of the rope on the ground and then tied into the eight.Name:  tension.jpg
Views: 690
Size:  12.3 KB
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 02-10-2014 at 01:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    MichaelXYZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    357

    Default

    Surely somebody had some webbing in their pocket? To answer your question, I would say that would work.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Port Allen, LA
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    I feel like im keeping you guys busy this week


    Anyway, what knot would be most optimal to use for attaching a belay device after anchoring in with a tensionless hitch?

    When I use an anchor strap obviously I just clip right into the strap and off we go. Would it be entirely acceptable to just anchor in with the hitch, and tie a butterfly a few feet out to attach the belay device?

    A directional 8 I guess would work as well but I can't see a reason to bother when the butterfly is just as good and easier to tie.

    I just want to make sure this is an acceptable method.

    I also want to add that in this scenario, you have no other ropes available to you. This is based on a firefighter roof rope, there won't be a rescue equipment cache 10 feet away with everything you could
    want.


    Heres my god awful cartoon drawing.

    It would go, tensionless hitch, butterfly with rescue eight, rest of the rope on the ground and then tied into the eight.Attachment 23299
    #1 - As Arnor Larson pounded into my head almost 30 years ago.....there is no such thing as a tensionless hitch. The hitch obviously has tension on/in it so the proper name per Arnor is a High Strength Tie Off.

    #2 - I would never ever use a figure 8 as a belay device based on the extensive drop testing I and many many others have performed around the world. It doesn't work reliably enough to ever use for belaying and is heavily dependent upon grip strength. Based on a study done by Kirk and Katie Muathner years ago, when you use even the best rope rescue gloves to protect yourself from the moving rope you lose 56% of your grip strength.

    #3 - If I needed a knot where you have the Butterfly I would use an In Line Figure 8.

    Mike

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rsqman View Post
    #1 - As Arnor Larson pounded into my head almost 30 years ago.....there is no such thing as a tensionless hitch. The hitch obviously has tension on/in it so the proper name per Arnor is a High Strength Tie Off.

    #2 - I would never ever use a figure 8 as a belay device based on the extensive drop testing I and many many others have performed around the world. It doesn't work reliably enough to ever use for belaying and is heavily dependent upon grip strength. Based on a study done by Kirk and Katie Muathner years ago, when you use even the best rope rescue gloves to protect yourself from the moving rope you lose 56% of your grip strength.

    #3 - If I needed a knot where you have the Butterfly I would use an In Line Figure 8.

    Mike
    Ok so a "rescue eight descender" Is not a stable enough belay device in your experience? We also use brake bar racks and XL ladder hooks with 4 wraps around the spine as well. Teaching the brake bar rack is starting to complicate things for the group that needs to do it...

    One of these



    In the absence of teaching someone to tie an in line 8, would you accept the butterfly as sufficient, even though it isnt the absolute best choice? Problem is I want to keep it simple as possible for these guys and the brake bar rack is raising the difficulty.



    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    Surely somebody had some webbing in their pocket? To answer your question, I would say that would work.
    Where would the webbing come into play?
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 02-10-2014 at 09:39 AM.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Port Allen, LA
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Ok so a "rescue eight descender" Is not a stable enough belay device in your experience? We also use brake bar racks and XL ladder hooks with 4 wraps around the spine as well. Teaching the brake bar rack is starting to complicate things for the group that needs to do it...

    One of these



    In the absence of teaching someone to tie an in line 8, would you accept the butterfly as sufficient, even though it isnt the absolute best choice? Problem is I want to keep it simple as possible for these guys and the brake bar rack is raising the difficulty.





    Where would the webbing come into play?
    Ok. To keep it as simple as I can....what Michael meant about the tubular webbing is use the webbing to wrap the tree for an anchor point instead of doing a high strength tie off. Then attach your belay system to that.

    My preferred belay technique (to keep it simple....and reliable) is the tandem triple wrapped Prusik hitch. It is easy to set up, easy to operate, reliable, requires a minimum amount of gear and can be pre-rigged. I also use the 540 Rescue Belay and the MPD Belay but you can buy a lot of Prusik cord for the price of either one of these.

    Yes, the butterfly will work in place of an in line figure 8 but if we are going simple here......the more knots you try to teach the students, the more confused they will get because they will not be using them on a frequent basis. I only teach 3 knots in my rescue classes; the Figure 8 on a Bight; The Double Overhand Bend (also called double fisherman's and a few other names); and the Triple Wrapped Prusik Hitch. All 3 knots can be pre-tied ad left in the rope (Figure 8 on the end of the rope, Prusik cord ends tied together with a Double Overhand and a Triple Wrapped Prusik Hitch already wrapped on the belay line. You can perform pretty much any rescue you need to with these 3 knots.

    Are there other knots we could use, potentially more effectively? Absolutely. As an instructor I know lots of knots. The Ashley book of knots has over 3800 knots within its pages (no I can't tie them all). At some point we have to say enough is enough and keep it simple.

    How long does it take to teach the students 15 or 20 knots? A long time. And the next morning they will have forgotten 2/3 rds of them and have to be retaught. I'm a big proponent of keeping it as simple as possible. The students learn simple faster, they retain simple more effectively, they understand how to make simple work for them in every situation.

    I teach 2 raising systems.....3:1 Z-Rig and 4:1/5:1 Block and Tackle.

    I teach 3 belay techniques.....Tandem Prusiks, 540 and MPD

    Ok, I'm off my soap box now....or off my meds or something...lol

    Mike

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    I see what you meant with the webbing, basically just using it as an anchor strap. I have put a full size CMC anchor strap in the rope bags, the problem is if the student should encounter a scenario where there is an object simply too large to use their webbing or anchor strap on, such as a bulkhead, then they need an alternative method.

    I originally designed my class with probably 10 knots, but realized exactly what you said. Theres just no chance of teaching the average volunteer firefighter to master the amount of knots and equipment we carry without them doing as I do and going on my own to learn it. I dumbed my class down to figure eight on a bight, clove hitch, butterfly, overhand knot.

    I haven't really decided how to go about safety systems yet. Our bags keep a pulley/tandem prusik setup on our safety line so thats probably the way to go. I might honestly leave the safety out of the basic 4 night class all together and save it for the next level after that. You won't have a safety line on a roof of a building anyway.

    In my volunteer department, save for 3-4 of us who do this professionally for a living, ropes is a lost art and I would like to at least get the ball rolling again.
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 02-10-2014 at 01:03 PM.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    132

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    I feel like im keeping you guys busy this week


    Anyway, what knot would be most optimal to use for attaching a belay device after anchoring in with a tensionless hitch?

    When I use an anchor strap obviously I just clip right into the strap and off we go. Would it be entirely acceptable to just anchor in with the hitch, and tie a butterfly a few feet out to attach the belay device?

    A directional 8 I guess would work as well but I can't see a reason to bother when the butterfly is just as good and easier to tie.

    I just want to make sure this is an acceptable method.

    I also want to add that in this scenario, you have no other ropes available to you. This is based on a firefighter roof rope, there won't be a rescue equipment cache 10 feet away with everything you could
    want.


    Heres my god awful cartoon drawing.

    It would go, tensionless hitch, butterfly with rescue eight, rest of the rope on the ground and then tied into the eight.Attachment 23299

    The purpose of the HSTO is to maintain "full strength" of the cord, which in turn is defeated by tying the midline knot to which you're attaching the carabiner. Hence, I wouldn't worry about messing around with the multiple wraps involved in the HSTO. Instead, tie your preferred knot or bend and be done with it. Personally, I like either a retraced bowline-with-a-bight, using the bight as the connection point. Or, a W2P1 with a retraced double becket bend with the other end of the rope, if the anchor is to be multi-use.

    FWIW, a bowline with a bight is a great in-line knot for its ease of untying after huge loads or impacts.

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    The purpose of the HSTO is to maintain "full strength" of the cord, which in turn is defeated by tying the midline knot to which you're attaching the carabiner. Hence, I wouldn't worry about messing around with the multiple wraps involved in the HSTO. Instead, tie your preferred knot or bend and be done with it. Personally, I like either a retraced bowline-with-a-bight, using the bight as the connection point. Or, a W2P1 with a retraced double becket bend with the other end of the rope, if the anchor is to be multi-use.

    FWIW, a bowline with a bight is a great in-line knot for its ease of untying after huge loads or impacts.
    Bowline on a bight is great but i think its too complex to teach in as basic a class as possible. Like ResQ said I just don't want to give people 20 things and have them remember 1, and mess up the other 19.

    as far as using the HSTO, I am only using it for the fact that it is fairly idiot proof in its execution. You wrap the rope around something and snap the carabiner in. Other than an anchor strap it can't get any simpler. Strength im not really worried about, we are using obnoxiously large 5/8" rope anyway for 2 person loading.


    EDIT:

    Ugh, just realized im a moron and and should not have used the term belay whatsoever for this post. I meant for the lowering device... Thats probably where this confusion is coming from.


    What I meant to ask, is anchoring off the lowering device for the main line. Not the belay/safety line. I would never use a figure 8 for safety, I only use the "hands free" systems like a gibbs or prusiks. Assuming thats also what you meant by the "drop test"

    Sorry, for some reason Im thinking of the belay as the main line and not the safety.
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 02-10-2014 at 01:10 PM.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    132

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Bowline on a bight is great but i think its too complex to teach in as basic a class as possible. Like ResQ said I just don't want to give people 20 things and have them remember 1, and mess up the other 19.

    as far as using the HSTO, I am only using it for the fact that it is fairly idiot proof in its execution. You wrap the rope around something and snap the carabiner in. Other than an anchor strap it can't get any simpler. Strength im not really worried about, we are using obnoxiously large 5/8" rope anyway for 2 person loading.


    EDIT:

    Ugh, just realized im a moron and and should not have used the term belay whatsoever for this post. I meant for the lowering device... Thats probably where this confusion is coming from.


    What I meant to ask, is anchoring off the lowering device for the main line. Not the belay/safety line. I would never use a figure 8 for safety, I only use the "hands free" systems like a gibbs or prusiks. Assuming thats also what you meant by the "drop test"

    Sorry, for some reason Im thinking of the belay as the main line and not the safety.

    Fair enough. In teaching knot craft, though, I see far more head scratching by students trying to tie a clean 8 than a simple bowline. Once a person understands a single bowline, the many variations in the bowline family come along rather quickly, in my experience.

    Why does a dept. want to spend all that money on 5/8" rope, when the system is only as strong as its weakest link? Moreover, knot craft with 5/8 rope is a PIA.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    The ropes hit the 10 year mark in 2017, so odds are they'll be replaced with half inch. Tying knots with them could not be more miserable.

    Our department has more money than they know what to do with and tend to go way overkill on just about everything. (Like every volly department on Long Island)

    In regards to my mistake using the term belay to reference the main lowering line, when I took my formal ropes class maybe 6 years ago now, they had us use "safety" and "belay" as the operational positions, so belay stuck with me as the lower and not
    The safety.

    What would you guys actually call the lowering position if belay is the safety?

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    132

    Default

    Main and Belay


    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    The ropes hit the 10 year mark in 2017, so odds are they'll be replaced with half inch. Tying knots with them could not be more miserable.

    Our department has more money than they know what to do with and tend to go way overkill on just about everything. (Like every volly department on Long Island)

    In regards to my mistake using the term belay to reference the main lowering line, when I took my formal ropes class maybe 6 years ago now, they had us use "safety" and "belay" as the operational positions, so belay stuck with me as the lower and not
    The safety.

    What would you guys actually call the lowering position if belay is the safety?

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Port Allen, LA
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post

    EDIT:

    Ugh, just realized im a moron and and should not have used the term belay whatsoever for this post. I meant for the lowering device... Thats probably where this confusion is coming from.


    What I meant to ask, is anchoring off the lowering device for the main line. Not the belay/safety line. I would never use a figure 8 for safety, I only use the "hands free" systems like a gibbs or prusiks. Assuming thats also what you meant by the "drop test".
    Aaaaaahhhhhh. Mondays can do that to you.....lol.

    Be very cautious with the Gibbs. The literature from the manufacturer says that when you put it on a rope and tension it you reduce the rope strength by 2/3 rds. That means your 9,000 lb rescue rope becomes a 3,000 lb rope while you have tension on the Gibbs. And if it a shock load......it gets real ugly real quick.

    They say their stainless steel 1/2" has a breaking strength of 5,400 lbs. If it cuts through the rope at 2,000 or 3,000 lbs then how do they get a 5,400 lb breaking strength. Something doesn't add up for me there.

    I've drop tested a lot of Gibbs and a 2-person (500 lbs was our load) load with a 1 meter drop always caused catastrophic failure.

    Mike

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rsqman View Post
    Aaaaaahhhhhh. Mondays can do that to you.....lol.

    Be very cautious with the Gibbs. The literature from the manufacturer says that when you put it on a rope and tension it you reduce the rope strength by 2/3 rds. That means your 9,000 lb rescue rope becomes a 3,000 lb rope while you have tension on the Gibbs. And if it a shock load......it gets real ugly real quick.

    They say their stainless steel 1/2" has a breaking strength of 5,400 lbs. If it cuts through the rope at 2,000 or 3,000 lbs then how do they get a 5,400 lb breaking strength. Something doesn't add up for me there.

    I've drop tested a lot of Gibbs and a 2-person (500 lbs was our load) load with a 1 meter drop always caused catastrophic failure.

    Mike

    Figure 8 is entirely fine for the main then right? Same as the ladder hook would be.


    Essentially, tandem prusiks are superior to a gibbs in every way excluding ease of setup.

    Glad you said that, I never would have known. So using a gibbs to attach a mechanical advantage to your haul line, is a big nono. Prusik all the way.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Port Allen, LA
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Figure 8 is entirely fine for the main then right? Same as the ladder hook would be.


    Essentially, tandem prusiks are superior to a gibbs in every way excluding ease of setup.

    Glad you said that, I never would have known. So using a gibbs to attach a mechanical advantage to your haul line, is a big nono. Prusik all the way.
    It is prusiks all the way for me as a rope grab. I know a lot of people who successfully use a Gibbs or other mechanical rope grabs. I just hesitate to trust any device that can take away 2/3 rds of the rope strength while my butt is hanging on the end of the line. You also have to consider.....if you are putting enough force on a Gibbs to make it cut through the rope....what kind of force are you putting on the person on the end of that rope? That goes for prusiks too.

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    It just dawned on me, that the way I am saying to tie the butterfly or directional 8 inline, I could just use a regular figure 8 on a bight all along and keep it that much simpler.

    Really it is being pulled in a direct straight line from the anchor, and the remainder of the standing end is being spooled up on the ground, not exerting directional force on the knot. The only way it should put shearing force on the knot is if you literally allow rope to play out under load until all your slack is gone and you reach the figure 8 itself. Which should never happen if you estimate your needs before starting operation.

    That said, I can eliminate the butterfly from my class and keep it that much simpler because that was the only purpose it served in such a basic class.

    Does that make sense?
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 02-10-2014 at 03:36 PM.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    MichaelXYZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post

    I haven't really decided how to go about safety systems yet. Our bags keep a pulley/tandem prusik setup on our safety line so thats probably the way to go. I might honestly leave the safety out of the basic 4 night class all together and save it for the next level after that. You won't have a safety line on a roof of a building anyway.
    Why wouldn't you have a safety (belay) on the roof of a building? You should always have a belay, what if the person on the lowering device lost his/her grip on the rope? Your system should pass the hands free test.

    The nice thing about the brake bar rack is more control of friction especially 2 person loads.

    If I were to setup a lower system, I would attach the main line to a webbing anchor with a fig 8 and carabiner. For webbing we use water knots. A wrap 3 pull 2 or basket sling are good anchors.

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    Why wouldn't you have a safety (belay) on the roof of a building? You should always have a belay, what if the person on the lowering device lost his/her grip on the rope? Your system should pass the hands free test.

    The nice thing about the brake bar rack is more control of friction especially 2 person loads.

    If I were to setup a lower system, I would attach the main line to a webbing anchor with a fig 8 and carabiner. For webbing we use water knots. A wrap 3 pull 2 or basket sling are good anchors.
    In NY, the roof man brings a single bag of 150-200' of rope to the roof with a lowering device. Safety lines aren't put into the equation for whatever reason. Probably because the roof man is carrying so much weight as is. Its being brought to the roof for everything not just if a rescue is called. Its always there as a proactive measure.

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Lakes Region, NH
    Posts
    88

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    It just dawned on me, that the way I am saying to tie the butterfly or directional 8 inline, I could just use a regular figure 8 on a bight all along and keep it that much simpler.

    Does that make sense?
    Makes sense to me. Keep in mind that even if you are pulling on both strands coming out of a figure 8 on a bight, as long as you have a carabiner clipped into the loop it will not collapse completely. Yes, you'll have extension (and pucker factor with it) but the knot will not completely disentegrate.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    While somewhat on the subject of belay operations,

    Is a screamer advantageous on a line minded by Tandem prusiks? I found a study saying its not advised for use with systems like the 540, but we don't own any automatic devices. I would think a line caught by tandem prusiks would catch fairly quickly but I guess theres always that scenario where the guy minding it pulled more slack than needed.
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 02-11-2014 at 10:08 AM.

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    132

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    While somewhat on the subject of belay operations,

    Is a screamer advantageous on a line minded by Tandem prusiks? I found a study saying its not advised for use with systems like the 540, but we don't own any automatic devices. I would think a line caught by tandem prusiks would catch fairly quickly but I guess theres always that scenario where the guy minding it pulled more slack than needed.
    A TPB provides its own impact absorption. Impact absorption also takes place via:

    -hardware flexion
    -tightening of system knots/bends/hitches
    -friction of rope across edges and/or carabiners, and/or pulley bearings.
    -"sloshiness" of body receiving impact
    -elongation of rope
    -elongation of webbing, including harness

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    A TPB provides its own impact absorption. Impact absorption also takes place via:

    -hardware flexion
    -tightening of system knots/bends/hitches
    -friction of rope across edges and/or carabiners, and/or pulley bearings.
    -"sloshiness" of body receiving impact
    -elongation of rope
    -elongation of webbing, including harness
    So that basically sounds like a no its not necessary but it can't hurt if you really wanted to put it on?

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    132

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    So that basically sounds like a no its not necessary but it can't hurt if you really wanted to put it on?
    As a general answer to that question, and in the rescue world where 2-person loads are often the case, I say leave the additional shock absorber out of the equation. In belay systems, give careful consideration to fall distance, especially with 2-person loads. The last thing you want happening to dude(s) on the end of the rope is to hit something that protrudes into the fall path, or the ground/floor (whatever the case). With many belay systems, especially with 2-person loads, the impact absorption qualities within the system can allow the load to hit the ground when within 10-15 feet of the ground. It is often counter-intuitive for folks, but the most dangerous part of an op is typically not 50 or 150 feet off the ground. It's the bottom 10 or so, where the belay is primarily for looks only. And this is especially the case if you're using nylon rope, as oppose to polyester. Another significant variable that I didn't mention earlier is the amount of rope in service between the belay mechanism and the load. The more in service, the more stretch. Something to think about, especially in industry where there is often the temptation to redirect the belay back to the floor level for convenience purposes.

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Awesome answer thank you.

    Regardless I iust discovered our 3 screamers that we even own were put in service in 97'... Obviously it promptly took them out of service.

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Port Allen, LA
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    A TPB provides its own impact absorption. Impact absorption also takes place via:

    -hardware flexion
    -tightening of system knots/bends/hitches
    -friction of rope across edges and/or carabiners, and/or pulley bearings.
    -"sloshiness" of body receiving impact
    -elongation of rope
    -elongation of webbing, including harness
    All true and correct. I have caught 500 lb loads on a 1 meter drop using tandem prusiks with no screamers, load limiters, load releasing hitches, etc.

    Mike

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    MichaelXYZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    In NY, the roof man brings a single bag of 150-200' of rope to the roof with a lowering device. Safety lines aren't put into the equation for whatever reason. Probably because the roof man is carrying so much weight as is. Its being brought to the roof for everything not just if a rescue is called. Its always there as a proactive measure.
    With just a single line the MPD would be a good way to go. Assuming you get 12mm rope...
    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 02-12-2014 at 05:13 AM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Optimal Staffing Level
    By MGTCON in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-03-2010, 11:27 AM
  2. 540 belay device
    By trevor in forum Specialized Rescue
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 11-12-2007, 11:18 AM
  3. Munter Hitch Belay
    By jmatthe2 in forum Specialized Rescue
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 01-24-2006, 02:22 PM
  4. GriGri Belay Device
    By RWK in forum Specialized Rescue
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-25-2001, 11:50 AM
  5. Munter hitch vs fig 8
    By j crooke in forum Specialized Rescue
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-30-1999, 09:39 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register