Like Tree29Likes

Thread: New Pierce model?

  1. #26
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Uh, sorry, my job is protect lives and save property, not unecessarily sacrifice my health to ride on a "cool" firetruck.
    Yeah and while you are standing out front with your limp c*ck in your hand because you can't get your 2014 Pierce (or any other 2014 Manufactured truck for that matter) into pump gear due to any of a number of electronic failures, I'll pull up with my 1974 CF Mack, F-Model Maxim, Century Series ALF, HCP Hahn, etc etc etc etc and engage the pump mechanically, open the manually actuated tank to pump valve as the boys are stretching the line to the front door, open the manually actuated discharge valve, turn the manually actuated vernier throttle and give them pressure. Oh, and if something goes wrong, I can get under the truck and more than likely do a quick fix on the scene with a set of pliers, screwdrivers and box end wrenches.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  2. #27
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo Kilo View Post
    Attachment 23357

    Slight correction to Woodbridge's post, this was not a CF chassis. It was a conventional cab chassis so the doghouse was huge. I've got a copy of the brochure they made up on my desk. I can post it on Monday if anyone's interested. Not sure this is the best thread for it though...
    Chiefengineer 11 and I have some fantastic insider information regarding this rig as our house was seriously considering it for purchase. It was originally an MH Mack Chassis with an E7 Mack engine, a first-generation 10 speed Eaton Autoshift transmission....However due to several issues, the company that did end up buying it (the guys that painted it green) had it converted to an Allison Automatic. This project was not endorsed, sanctioned or approved by Mack and I understand that Sutphen heard quite a bit of backlash from Mack's Legal Department over it. More on the mechanics of this thing later unless Chiefengineer 11 chimes in.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  3. #28
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Uh, sorry, my job is protect lives and save property, not unecessarily sacrifice my health to ride on a "cool" firetruck.
    Yup, cuz gosh knows we only fight fires in nice weather. We are only exposed to the bad weather during the 10 minute ride.
    FyredUp likes this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #29
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    I remember being in the rear open jump seat area of our old Mack CF with only a lap belt and scba holder to keep us in place, the Mack diesel screaming and huddling up to the engine compartment cover trying to stay warm on those cold bitter nights, having only two gauges on the pump panel to measure intake and discharge pressures, having to set the Waterous pressure relief valve manually... That truck served delivered to us in 1972 and could take a beating... literally. We had responded to a reported struture fire in a blizzard and the truck slid on ice and hit a granite monument.The Chauffeur just backed up and drove to the fire. When we returned to quarters, one of the guys put a portapower to the dented area and pushed the dent out. We then responded to our 2nd working fire that night...

    See if one can do that with today's rigs...

    Good times....
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 03-07-2014 at 03:12 PM. Reason: spelling correction
    Chenzo likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  5. #30
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    I remember being in the rear open jump seat area of our old Mack CF with only a lap belt and scba holder to keep us in place, the Mack diesel screaming and huddling up to the engine compartment cover trying to stay warm on those cold bitter nights, having only two gauges on the pump panel to measure intake and discharge pressures, having to set the Waterous pressure relief valve manually... That truck served delivered to us in 1972 and could take a beating... literally. We had responded to a reported struture fire in a blizzard and the truck slid on ice and hit a granite monument.The Chauffeur just backed up and drove to the fire. When we returned to quarters, one of the guys put a portapwer tot he dented area and pushed the dent out. We then responded to our 2nd working fire that night...
    See if one can do that with toaday's rigs...

    Good times....
    Heck how many of these computer whiz bang trucks won't start for no apparent reason, the transmission won't shift on occasion, they power down, they won't go into pump, or out of pump, aerials get error messages so you can't raise or rotate the ladder, lights stop working and then work again, and so much more. Don't get me wrong, I love the creature comforts, but if the rig won't get me to the call, work when it is there, and then get me back to quarters, what good is it really?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  6. #31
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    A lousy $5 electrical connector crapped out on a friend's rig as he and his crew just opened up their attack line on a fire in a SFD. The truck shut down. Luckily, they had another crew from another Engine company behind them with their own line and they put out the fire.

    The rig had to be towed to the shops, the repair took all of 15 minutes.. most of which was removing the stuff from the cab to tilt it and return it afterwards.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 03-07-2014 at 04:09 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #32
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Chiefengineer 11 and I have some fantastic insider information regarding this rig as our house was seriously considering it for purchase. It was originally an MH Mack Chassis with an E7 Mack engine, a first-generation 10 speed Eaton Autoshift transmission....However due to several issues, the company that did end up buying it (the guys that painted it green) had it converted to an Allison Automatic. This project was not endorsed, sanctioned or approved by Mack and I understand that Sutphen heard quite a bit of backlash from Mack's Legal Department over it. More on the mechanics of this thing later unless Chiefengineer 11 chimes in.
    Well, I've kind of avoided telling this story for a few reasons. I hope enough time has elapsed that it doesn't get me in trouble. We did have that engine in our station for several days to try out. It was a truly nice piece and it had a lot going for it. For you Mack afficianados, it actually began life as a
    CH (conventional). Sutphen removed the CH cab and reworked things to accept their fire truck cab. More on that later. As Buff said, it had an E7 Mack engine, 427 HP. And it would fly! And as he said, it had an Eaton/Fuller Roadranger 10-speed autoshift transmission which had a clutch pedal but you only used that for starting out, stopping or going into reverse. The fact that it even had a clutch did present issues with a few members.

    One thing about this transmission - it was overdrive in 10th gear and 9th was direct drive. On one of the days it was here, Buff took the salesman (a Cincinnati F.D. Lieutenant) buffing in Philadelphia. While they were gone, I decided to put some water in the tank and circulate it just to see how it felt. I should note that this truck had a Waterous CSU pump (single stage) while everything we have is two stage. So I first pumped it with the transmission in 9th (direct) and it seemed OK except that it took what I thought was an awful lot of engine RPM to do what I was doing. So I tried putting it in 10th gear (overdrive) and it did bring the RPM down to what I thought would be an acceptable level. But I know, as most competent pump operators know, that you always pump in direct gear whatever that is. I thought about where to get a definitive answer to what would be right. So I made a call to the Roadranger help line to see if they had any opinion on it. My call got transferred a couple of times because the first people I talked to either didn't understand what I was doing or didn't have an answer. Finally I got someone who did understand what I was talking about. His reply was, "You can't do that, it's impossible to do." He went on to explain that the way the software that controls the transmission is programmed it will not allow you to begin any higher than third gear. I said that I can put this into any gear I want to. He came back and said, "No you can't." I said maybe I can't but since I don't know any better, I'm doing it (remember, bumblebees can't fly, but since they don't know any better, they fly anyway).

    Anyway, I got transferred up the line a few more levels with the same response, including from the project engineer who led the team that created the controls for the transmission. Finally, he admitted that if some really sharp programmer was able to decipher their (Fuller's) logic, they might be able to create a work-around and make it do what we were doing. But that engineer was very emphatic that since no one in Eaton/Fuller had any idea of what was done and certainly didn't approve it, they couldn't and absolutely would not tstand behind it (meaning no warranty on the the transmission). So that pretty much put the kibosh on buying the truck.

    Like I said, it was a nice truck. Those of you who have seen it (it was at Harrisburg at least once, maybe twice) or its pictures will recognize it as a Sutphen with all of their nice workmanship.

    Now this is the "later" that I mentioned earlier. There was another catch. The cab was fixed in place - it couldn't be raised. There were service flaps for doing maintenance or repairs. I opened them to see what would be involved in doing routine stuff. I found the fuel filters, but no matter what I envisioned, I never figured out how I would change them.

    I think if we had been able to resolve those issues, that piece would still be red and it would live in our station now. I know that Sutphen eventually put an Allison transmission in it. I hope that the folks in Heidlersburg, Adams County who have it have figured out how to service it and that it does a good job for them
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 03-07-2014 at 10:49 PM. Reason: additional info and clarifications

  8. #33
    Forum Member
    islandfire03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,593

    Default

    great bit of history on that one of mack .
    Sam.

  9. #34
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Thanks for posting that, ChiefEngineer. That was one of them more interesting trucks to come through the factory before my time and there was hardly any documentation. Mind if I copy some for my records?

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo Kilo View Post
    Thanks for posting that, ChiefEngineer. That was one of them more interesting trucks to come through the factory before my time and there was hardly any documentation. Mind if I copy some for my records?
    Not a problem. Understand though, that's all taken from memory and is about 10 years old. I don't know if Buff wants to add anything to it or give his own version. He was also quite involved with it. I'm sorry we weren't able to buy it, even though it was a true one-off. I really liked it. But there were just too many factors that made us uncomfortable. I hope they were addressed to Heidlersburg's satisfaction. I hope someone from there will contribute to this discussion. Do you work at East?

  11. #36
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    253

    Default

    Any fire departments that own a newer Pierce apparatus, can you tell me what the words " SLT " mean on some of the Pierce Mfg stock/demo trucks on there web site ? Someone told me that it is a apparatus that is built down in Florida !

  12. #37
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,324

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    Any fire departments that own a newer Pierce apparatus, can you tell me what the words " SLT " mean on some of the Pierce Mfg stock/demo trucks on there web site ? Someone told me that it is a apparatus that is built down in Florida !
    Correct, formerly known as the Contender rigs.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  13. #38
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Do you work at East?
    Yes, I'm one of the engineers.

  14. #39
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Golly, I guess you haven't ever seen a 4 door enclosed cab Mack CF engine. Further. I guess you have never seen a refurbished Mack CF engine. Some have heat, and A/C relocated sirens and airhorns. In fact MY personally owned CF has the Federal Q on the front bumper extension.

    What's antique about it? The fact that it doesn't have 15, 000 miles of multi-plexing wiring and computers? That it doesn't have apressure governor? Guess what? I was at Pierce last year and there were at least a dozen engines on the line getting built with pressure relief valves and vernier throttles (yes I know the throttle is electronic). The point is they were not being built with pressure governors. Golly are those guys having antique trucks being built new? My 1974 mack Cf can supply 1250 GPM, whether through multiple handlines or a mounted deluge gun. It has scba seats and it has high side compartments. Holy cow! That doesn't sound awhole lot different than many of today's fancy NEW MODERN rigs.

    Go back and ride your commercial cab rig that will crush like a pancake when it rolls over, especially if it has one of those monster phone booth cab extensions on it, and remind again about how safety conscious you are. There isn't a single commercial chasis that would survive as well or any better than my Mack in a roll over.

    You really need to relax...
    Uh, you might want to check your FACTS. Those commercial cab trucks you speak of were bought way back in '99. We got rid of ours after only 3 years. We bought nothing but custome cabs after that.
    And BTW, a rebuilt Mack with a fully enclosed cab that has modern safety features is NOT the same as an old open cab one. And even then, it's unlikely to have anti-lock brakes.

  15. #40
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Uh, you might want to check your FACTS. Those commercial cab trucks you speak of were bought way back in '99. We got rid of ours after only 3 years. We bought nothing but custome cabs after that.
    And BTW, a rebuilt Mack with a fully enclosed cab that has modern safety features is NOT the same as an old open cab one. And even then, it's unlikely to have anti-lock brakes.
    What's next? No back up camera? No GPS? No MDT? No self dimming mirrors? No power mirrors? OH CRAP!! IT DOESN"T HAVE ANY LED WARNING LIGHTS!!! HORRORS!!

    Geezus, I get that you love the new rigs. HOORAY FOR YOU! Now get over yourself. Because my Mack will still be running and pumping long after the multiplexing nightmares are sitting in scrap yards.
    FWDbuff and Woodbridge like this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  16. #41
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    253

    Default

    About ten years ago we had a Mack CF 1250 gpm engine with a Waterous pump fight a fire at a Shell oil refinery after lighting hit a storage tank at there tank farm. Our Mack CF pumped for two & a half days straight without shutting down, there were other newer pumpers being towed away from the fire scene braking down with all of the electronics, you can not beat a old mack with manual controls !!
    DeputyChiefGonzo likes this.

  17. #42
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    About ten years ago we had a Mack CF 1250 gpm engine with a Waterous pump fight a fire at a Shell oil refinery after lighting hit a storage tank at there tank farm. Our Mack CF pumped for two & a half days straight without shutting down, there were other newer pumpers being towed away from the fire scene braking down with all of the electronics, you can not beat a old mack with manual controls !!
    Amen Brother.

    I can appreciate riding in a fully enclosed cab with heat and A/C, and all the gadgets we have come to expect. But I am a realist and time will tell how many, if any, of these technological wonders will survive the test of time. On the other hand I love the Mack CF engines and mine is 40 years old this year and still is fully operational
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  18. #43
    Forum Member
    Chenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rural WI
    Posts
    1,240

    Default

    Alright here's my penny worth of thoughts on this.

    For me, it's kind of like the difference between a 1978 Suburban and a 2014 Suburban. They are designed to do the same thing, but there are each of them that do something better. I will take the comforts of the 2014 Suburban any day of the week. Heated seats, power mirrors and windows, good suspension, better crash test ratings, etc.

    But if I'm out in the middle of the desert on a family vacation or something, miles away from the nearest town, and I break down, I'm going to want that 1978 Suburban, that I go out and fix with some wrenches and screwdriver, without need some computer or having to chase miles of wire.

    We have that HME engine as our first out rig at my #1 department. I love that truck. 2000GPM with 1050GWT and foam system. It's spacious, comfortable, good compartment space, 6 man enclosed cab, heat and A/C, AM/FM/CD stereo and speakers, etc etc. It's awesome to drive down the road, it's quick it's comfortable and rides incredibly well for being a fire truck. But, it has it's flaws. On that house fire that Fyred and I posted about last year, something went wrong with the electronics. Not 100% sure if it was left opened, or if the MPO accidentally opened it, but a drain was left open. SOAKED, and I mean SOAKED the inside of the pump panel and fried one of the electronic modules. From then on at that fire, the pump didn't work. I was getting hydrant pressure only, and luckily we were 100 feet from the hydrant that was just below the water tower so I had good pressure, and that my mutual aid engine arrived shortly after that.

    But I would take the Mack back anyday. Compartment space worked well for what he had that truck doing, pump and tank were definitely sufficient, a lot of fire was put out with that truck both with me and before my time. Only had seating for 5, and 2 were in the back under the canopy cab, so yeah it was either hot or cold depending on the season, but that's something I could never tell for one reason or another (adrenaline? Excitement?). But I don't recall any issues we had with the pump or anything that wasn't able to be fixed on scene because it was all mechanical controls. Had the incident above happened to the Mack, I feel we wouldn't have seen anything go wrong, being as everything isn't controlled by a computer.

    My point being, after this long post, is what some others have said. Both newer and older trucks have their advantages, and for me makes the older rigs just as on par with the newer rigs, because I think having mechanical pump controls you can fix on scene if sh*t goes wrong is just as important as having the creature comforts of a new rig.
    FyredUp and DeputyChiefGonzo like this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  19. #44
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,169

    Default

    Chenzo...

    Nice post and I agree with your points. I had actually startd a post that included mentioning the radio, the foam, LED lights, the generator and extenda lights, and all of that, but decided to just post what I did instead.

    Oh, by the way your facts are WRONG! That HME engine has a 1020 GWT and an integral 30 gallon foam cell. For a total capacity of 1050 gallons.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #45
    Forum Member
    Chenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rural WI
    Posts
    1,240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Oh, by the way your facts are WRONG! That HME engine has a 1020 GWT and an integral 30 gallon foam cell. For a total capacity of 1050 gallons.
    I knew 1050 didn't sound right for just the WT, but I knew 1050 belonged there somewhere. Thanks.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  21. #46
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I knew 1050 didn't sound right for just the WT, but I knew 1050 belonged there somewhere. Thanks.
    I did help design the son of a bitch!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  22. #47
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    What's next? No back up camera? No GPS? No MDT? No self dimming mirrors? No power mirrors? OH CRAP!! IT DOESN"T HAVE ANY LED WARNING LIGHTS!!! HORRORS!!

    Geezus, I get that you love the new rigs. HOORAY FOR YOU! Now get over yourself. Because my Mack will still be running and pumping long after the multiplexing nightmares are sitting in scrap yards.
    So what if YOUR Mack will be pumping a fire musters. Weren't you the one whining about not accepting new ideas???
    BTW, I do seem to remember all those old trucks eating alternators, causing interference with the radios, and yes, even breaking down.
    The fact is, the day of the Mack is long gone. End of story.

  23. #48
    Forum Member
    Chenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rural WI
    Posts
    1,240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    BTW, I do seem to remember all those old trucks eating alternators, causing interference with the radios, and yes, even breaking down.
    There's a big difference between eating an alternator (easily diagnosed on an old truck compared to the computerization of a new one), causing radio interference (all the technology in a new truck could cause radio interference as well), and breaking down (it's a lot easier to diagnose an issue with a truck that doesn't have computer controlling everything) on a new truck and old truck.

    It's not about old being better than new. It's about both types of trucks having their strong points and their weak points. The mechanical simplicity of an older vehicle, fire truck or otherwise, is far easier to diagnose and repair than the complexity of the wiring and computer systems on a new rig. On the other side of the coin, the safety features and creature comforts of a new rig are better than that of an open cab or canopy cab rig from the past.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  24. #49
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    So what if YOUR Mack will be pumping a fire musters. Weren't you the one whining about not accepting new ideas???
    BTW, I do seem to remember all those old trucks eating alternators, causing interference with the radios, and yes, even breaking down.
    The fact is, the day of the Mack is long gone. End of story.
    Pretty sure he was whining about people accepting new ideas just because they are new ideas. He generally has no issue with accepting better ideas.

    New ideas.....comfort items on a truck to protect from cold/heat.
    Better ideas....more reliable trucks (less electronics).
    FyredUp likes this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  25. #50
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Swanton Fire Dept. Swanton, Vermont
    Posts
    479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I did help design the son of a bitch!
    Another person who knows the details on "Their HME".... our 2006 has a tank capacity of 1216 gallons at least that is what the tank document has on it...haven't filled 1216 milk containers yet to verify but.... Like you I did a lot on the Design of the SOB!! I kind of know about it...
    FyredUp likes this.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Pierce (Appleton) vs Pierce (Bradenton / Contender)
    By gefd901 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 07-03-2009, 12:04 PM
  2. This guy is a role model for all...
    By DennisTheMenace in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-09-2006, 01:47 PM
  3. Create a model of your self
    By RyanEMVFD in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 06-22-2005, 06:18 PM
  4. City Model?
    By ADMIN665 in forum Emergency Services Training
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-01-2004, 09:06 PM
  5. Role Model
    By ltdanfireman in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-22-2002, 03:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register