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Thread: Hey let's see if we can get a fire topic to go more than 5 posts befoe we let it die!

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    All this stuff is well and good in a test house that is set up and has the same conditions. How many hoarder houses have a sign adhvertisting that the house is full of crap?? How many older houses that have been cut up and remodeled by some hill jack carpenter have the floor plan next to the front door??
    Controlling the flow path?? How do we know what that path is? An open window or two and your "flow path" control is out the window.
    And just how is a firefighter gonna keep the door closed and hump hose in at the same time???? Maybe this will all work out if you can get the entire assignment to show up at the same time, but how often does that happen?? Many times on a room and contents, the first engine has a knockdown before another company gets there. And like I said, do you REALLY need to test to see if a stream turns to steam?? If you don't have a TIC to tell you it's hot or you can't see and feel the heat, well, get some experience.
    As for using a brick row house as an example, with newer windows, a brick or masonry building is more likely to be airtight that the average wood frame house other that one of the smaller new builds.
    I think firefighters need to look at the situation ON HAND before they rely on ANY specific technique. I am a fan of the transitional attack when indicated, I just think this door control tactic is very limited and not practical on many fires. Around here a three man crew is the norm, and I think leaving a guy on the nozzle alone is a VERY bad idea. If you haven the manpower and the conditions are right for this tactic, fine. But I don't see those stars aligning that often.
    You are correct in pointing out that open windows will affect flowpath. Flowpath control is not just about controlling the door. The LAFD video that fyrdup linked to concentrated on door control. That is just one piece of the puzzle. Anyone who thinks that door control is the only goal in controlling flowpath does not understand the process. Closing the door most of the way will still allow for line advance and will contribute to controlled ventilation at the same time. Once the charged line is moving in to the fire, the door control becomes much less critical because rapid cooling is imminent. It is much more important to control door prior to line being in place. A search tem entering before line is ready should close the door behind them. Once a team locates a fire and has the ability to confine it to a room by closing that door, then the entrance door no longer needs to be controlled. Confinement of fire by closing the door to the room is not a new idea in firefighting. We know now that the entrance door should be kept closed until that is done or the line is in place.

    You mention the windows. Regardless of staffing, the time spent on an exterior survey is always worth it. So you WILL know if windows are open. The whole point of controlled flowpath/ventilation is to reduce the likelihood of our actions allowing air to get to a ventilation limited (lacking oxygen) fire. If windows are open and fire is venting then you don't have to worry about allowing air to get to the fire. This has already happened.

    Hoarding doesn't really enter into the discussion as far as ventilation. Nor does floorplan, except to the extent that interior doors will be present. Depending on whether they are opened or closed, this can help us or hurt us.

    I believe most of the resistence to this stuff comes from not fully understanding it.
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  2. #22
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    We have some older members that are not taking so kindly to the findings of the study, but for the most part the members are finding the information useful. We have been talking alot about transitional attach and search and have been thinking back to fires where we used these tactics and were successful. One example was a trailer house where the Chief jumped off the engine and found a window that was not showing fire, used the nozzle to break the glass and opened the nozzle while the crew packed up. The fire stopped at that window. Another fire was a room and contents in the first floor A/D bedroom. The police officer closed the front door when he got there, keeping the fire down. After the size up we threw the door wide open and stretched into the house and put water on the fire. The conditions rapidly got worse till we hit the seat. Thankfully it was a short stretch, had we taken the window and hit it from the outside we would have rapidly cooled it down, or if we had controlled the front door we think the conditions would not have deteriorated as quickly. Had it been a longer stretch we may have been in trouble before we got to the room. I have asked some of the hold outs if they would like to extricate people with hack saws and screw drivers like they did in the old days. They say no, things have changed and we changed tactics and got better tools to be effective in the modern times with modern steels. Hmmmm.......
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Another approach I'm pushing for is an adult education program showing the importance of occupants closing doors and compartmentalizing their homes/apartments/spaces as much as possible. Showing them how much of a difference this can make in minimizing damage and life threat using pictures and videos would seem better than just removing door chocks every time we encounter them.
    I'd like to know what you are doing and how successful it is or has been.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I believe most of the resistence to this stuff comes from not fully understanding it.
    Bingo.

    This is still a fairly new, and to many, radical concept. For my entire career, there have been two things that were virtual absolutes.

    *No streams through windows.

    *Don't spray smoke.

    Now we are realizing that those aren't written in stone, but that mindset isn't overcome easily, and may never be overcome completely.

    What concerns me more than the people that refuse to consider this as an acceptable tactic, are those who will read about it, or watch a youtube video, and decide that this is the ONLY way to do it. That's every bit as dangerous. Knowing when NOT to reset the fire, is as important as knowing when to do it. If this is going to be a tactic in an FD's toolkit, everyone on the job needs to understand it, and when and how to use it.
    RFDACM02 and WVFD705 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    Bingo.

    This is still a fairly new, and to many, radical concept. For my entire career, there have been two things that were virtual absolutes.

    *No streams through windows.

    *Don't spray smoke.

    Now we are realizing that those aren't written in stone, but that mindset isn't overcome easily, and may never be overcome completely.

    What concerns me more than the people that refuse to consider this as an acceptable tactic, are those who will read about it, or watch a youtube video, and decide that this is the ONLY way to do it. That's every bit as dangerous. Knowing when NOT to reset the fire, is as important as knowing when to do it. If this is going to be a tactic in an FD's toolkit, everyone on the job needs to understand it, and when and how to use it.
    Another virtual absolute for many:

    The first guy through the door chocks it open.

    I don't necessarily agree that there are times where the new tactics are inappropriate. What is the downside to controlling ventilation until a charged line is moving in? I see none. How can controlling ventilation be dangerous? Many will agree (I hope) that breaking of windows all around the structure before a line is ready to operate is a bad idea. Why? Because it is uncontrolled ventilation. It can worsen conditions. How is chocking open the front door prior to a line being ready any different?
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    ...For my entire career, there have been two things that were virtual absolutes...
    Mine were to not use 2 words......"always" and "never".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #27
    Forum Member sfd1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I don't necessarily agree that there are times where the new tactics are inappropriate. What is the downside to controlling ventilation until a charged line is moving in? I see none. How can controlling ventilation be dangerous? Many will agree (I hope) that breaking of windows all around the structure before a line is ready to operate is a bad idea. Why? Because it is uncontrolled ventilation. It can worsen conditions. How is chocking open the front door prior to a line being ready any different?
    I was talking more about the stream placement portion rather than controlling ventilation and air movement. I agree 100% that controlling ventilation is absolutely going to be a good idea, but there are times when application of water from the exterior is not a good tactic.

    A room and contents fire may have fire showing out of the window, but that doesn't mean it needs to be hit from outside. My point was that there are people who, without the proper training will do it all the time as their default mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Look, don't buy into it. No where did I say it won't work. I do believe I said it wasn't always feasible, especially with low manpower.But do us all a favor and stay out of the way of those in the fire service Oh PUH-LEEZE~~~that are embracing the idea that flow path in modern furnished homes is a real threat and controlling it You mean like horizontal ventilation and putting yourself on the opposite side of where the fire is venting??can make a interior fire attack far more survivable. By the way, I don't see anywhere where this is a mandated tactic. I didn't say it was.Use it when it applies, Just like I said, although I don't think it will apply often.don't when it doesn't, including when manpower doesn't allowAgain, like I said.

    Um, as far as how does a firefighter keep the door closed and hump hose at the same time. You're kidding right? You aren't closing the door tightly on the hose, you are closing it most of the way. Are you trying to control air coming in, or a salesman? Do you not think the velocity of the air will increase if the opening is somewhat restricted? If you put a piece of webbing on the door kneel or stand on it to control the door while you feed hose.
    The open space of the average front door with an 1 3/4" line going in will be in the neighborhood of 2 square feet. That's a lot of space for air to enter, even with door control. My goal is to put wet stuff on the red stuff. If that involves a transitional attack, fine. But if I'm that worried that I'm going to get caught in a jet of fire just because the door behind me is open, it's time to go defensive and use other tactics until we can reenter. If it's that volatile inside, nobody is likely to still be alive. You do what works for you, but around here I just don't see that scenario playing out knowing what the fire charactaristics are of the buildings here.

  9. #29
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    Application of water from the exterior has nothing to do with controlling flowpaths via ventilation practices. Too many guys think the UL/NIST research was about blitz attack. Others think it's only about door control. These are minor parts of the picture. The lessons learned from the research are more about the negative effect of air intake to a ventilation limited fire via ANY opening we may make. And it's about what happens in the fire area AND adjacent areas when this happens. It's also about the effects of water when applied to areas other than the area of fire origin. There is a ton of information. No one will understand it all by reading a forum on the internet or a magazine article.
    FyredUp and FF715MRFD like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    The open space of the average front door with an 1 3/4" line going in will be in the neighborhood of 2 square feet. That's a lot of space for air to enter, even with door control. My goal is to put wet stuff on the red stuff. If that involves a transitional attack, fine. But if I'm that worried that I'm going to get caught in a jet of fire just because the door behind me is open, it's time to go defensive and use other tactics until we can reenter. If it's that volatile inside, nobody is likely to still be alive. You do what works for you, but around here I just don't see that scenario playing out knowing what the fire charactaristics are of the buildings here.
    I don't mean this as a personal attack but your statements are a perfect example of the ignorance that is out there. Restricting the size of the opening DOES slow the air movement. Yes, air will enter but it will do so more slowly. The ventilation limited (air-starved) fire will remain limited for a longer period of time. This buys us more time to get the line in place or searches done, at least partially, before the entire area lights up.
    You talk about the "fire characteristics of the buildings" there as if those characteristics change from place to place. They do not change. Physics is physics. Doesn't matter where you are.
    Your goal is "to put the wet stuff on the red stuff"? It's a good goal. But firefighting has a progression: Locate, Confine, Extinguish. Maybe you've heard of this.
    FyredUp, FF715MRFD and rm1524 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    I'd like to know what you are doing and how successful it is or has been.
    So far I've not gotten any further than writing an article for the "Paper" along the lines of a PSA and one short "from the hip" conversation with the tenants of an elderly housing complex. Those in attendence seemed to actually "get it" when it was explained why it was so important to keep their doors closed and not blocked open as they socialize throught the day.

    I'd like to expand on the idea to have an adult Ed one night class on real world fire safety and a little Q&A on what the FD does and why we do things. I'm not so sure there's an audience for that, maybe a Rotary or Kiwani's meeting. In general people think that having smoke detectors are enough, but don't realize they do nothing to protect their home if no one is home to hear them and call 911.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    T If it's that volatile inside, nobody is likely to still be alive.
    Not trying to ple on more criticism, but this too has been dis-proven. Where people have been found in rooms with doors closed, their survivability is far higher. Things can be going to hell all around and even a hollowcore door can provide a significant measure of safety. Not speaking to fire out every window. Watch the 30 Dowling Circle presentation by the ATF and Balto-Co. it's enlightening.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    I was talking more about the stream placement portion rather than controlling ventilation and air movement. I agree 100% that controlling ventilation is absolutely going to be a good idea, but there are times when application of water from the exterior is not a good tactic.

    I don't believe anyone is saying always do a transitional attack. The problem is there are probably far more instances where it could be, and should be, done to make an interior attack safer and it wasn't done.

    A room and contents fire may have fire showing out of the window, but that doesn't mean it needs to be hit from outside. My point was that there are people who, without the proper training will do it all the time as their default mode.

    People without proper training will, on average, screww things up at a much higher rate than those properly trained. Perhaps if there are no lives to be saved those poorly trained firefighters are better off doing an exterior attack instead of going inside, getting in trouble and becoming another name on the firefighter memorial wall. The real question should be why aren't they trained properly?
    I don't necessarily disagree with anything you posted. It is sad to think today that untrained firefighters is the reason not to embrace new ideas in frefighting though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Not trying to ple on more criticism, but this too has been dis-proven. Where people have been found in rooms with doors closed, their survivability is far higher. Things can be going to hell all around and even a hollowcore door can provide a significant measure of safety. Not speaking to fire out every window. Watch the 30 Dowling Circle presentation by the ATF and Balto-Co. it's enlightening.
    Great point! The research revealed a lot about survivability in different areas of the structure. Again, I suggest this material be seriously studied before rejecting it as just a tool in the tool box.
    FyredUp and RFDACM02 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    So far I've not gotten any further than writing an article for the "Paper" along the lines of a PSA and one short "from the hip" conversation with the tenants of an elderly housing complex. Those in attendence seemed to actually "get it" when it was explained why it was so important to keep their doors closed and not blocked open as they socialize throught the day.

    I'd like to expand on the idea to have an adult Ed one night class on real world fire safety and a little Q&A on what the FD does and why we do things. I'm not so sure there's an audience for that, maybe a Rotary or Kiwani's meeting. In general people think that having smoke detectors are enough, but don't realize they do nothing to protect their home if no one is home to hear them and call 911.
    I like the idea of presenting it to the civic service-type organizations. I've generally found those type of organizations to be very helpful and generally approach everything with an open mind and a willingness to listen.

    I've tried to spread the word via some videos on our department's Facebook page, as that seems to have about the widest audience.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Not trying to ple on more criticism, but this too has been dis-proven. Where people have been found in rooms with doors closed, their survivability is far higher. Things can be going to hell all around and even a hollowcore door can provide a significant measure of safety. Not speaking to fire out every window. Watch the 30 Dowling Circle presentation by the ATF and Balto-Co. it's enlightening.
    Here's the link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsa4mI0rO-o
    RFDACM02 likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I don't mean this as a personal attack but your statements are a perfect example of the ignorance that is out there.Ignorance??? Not hardly. I'm just injecting reality into the equation. Restricting the size of the opening DOES slow the air movement. Yes, air will enter but it will do so more slowly. And the time span on this is what??The ventilation limited (air-starved) fire will remain limited for a longer period of time. Which won't be long if the situation is that volatile.This buys us more time to get the line in place or searches done, at least partially, before the entire area lights up.
    You talk about the "fire characteristics of the buildings" there as if those characteristics change from place to place. Uh, excuse me, but the fire load most certainly varies, as does the construction and layout of various buildings. This does cause variances in fire spread.They do not change. Physics is physics. Doesn't matter where you are.
    Your goal is "to put the wet stuff on the red stuff"? It's a good goal. But firefighting has a progression: Locate, Confine, Extinguish. Maybe you've heard of this.
    Please don't patronize. My point is that you need to size up the situation, and be aware of changing conditions. Door control at best is going to be a minor consideration in most fire situations due to many other factors. We have VES, transitional attack, rescue, exposure, manpower, etc. to consider as well.
    The original post concerned the LAFD video, that's what I've addressed.

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    Door control should not be looked upon as minor.

    You say we should be aware of changing conditions. I assume you refer to deteriorating conditions. I agree, but I would take it a step further. How about we be aware of changing conditions and also be aware of things we can do to stop things from deteriorating.

    Do you agree that venting every window in a structure can be counterproductive? If you do, then you should agree that improper venting via doors can also be unproductive.

    I don't see how door control prevents you from considering transitional attack, VES, rescue, exposures, manpower, etc. Door control could make all of those things safer and easier.
    FyredUp, FF715MRFD and RFDACM02 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Door control should not be looked upon as minor.

    You say we should be aware of changing conditions. I assume you refer to deteriorating conditions. I agree, but I would take it a step further. How about we be aware of changing conditions and also be aware of things we can do to stop things from deteriorating.

    Do you agree that venting every window in a structure can be counterproductive? If you do, then you should agree that improper venting via doors can also be unproductive.

    I don't see how door control prevents you from considering transitional attack, VES, rescue, exposures, manpower, etc. Door control could make all of those things safer and easier.
    My VFD is looking very deeply into this, and adjusting our assignments as well. We have never had a door control position, and quite frankly, never did much in the way of door control, but that is likely to change here.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Do you agree that venting every window in a structure can be counterproductive?
    Tee hee...

    We've got a department in our area for whom "take a window" means everybody grabs a tool and takes a window... Geez, they like to break glass...
    FF715MRFD likes this.
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