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Thread: Hey let's see if we can get a fire topic to go more than 5 posts befoe we let it die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    ...For my entire career, there have been two things that were virtual absolutes...
    Mine were to not use 2 words......"always" and "never".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I don't necessarily agree that there are times where the new tactics are inappropriate. What is the downside to controlling ventilation until a charged line is moving in? I see none. How can controlling ventilation be dangerous? Many will agree (I hope) that breaking of windows all around the structure before a line is ready to operate is a bad idea. Why? Because it is uncontrolled ventilation. It can worsen conditions. How is chocking open the front door prior to a line being ready any different?
    I was talking more about the stream placement portion rather than controlling ventilation and air movement. I agree 100% that controlling ventilation is absolutely going to be a good idea, but there are times when application of water from the exterior is not a good tactic.

    A room and contents fire may have fire showing out of the window, but that doesn't mean it needs to be hit from outside. My point was that there are people who, without the proper training will do it all the time as their default mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Look, don't buy into it. No where did I say it won't work. I do believe I said it wasn't always feasible, especially with low manpower.But do us all a favor and stay out of the way of those in the fire service Oh PUH-LEEZE~~~that are embracing the idea that flow path in modern furnished homes is a real threat and controlling it You mean like horizontal ventilation and putting yourself on the opposite side of where the fire is venting??can make a interior fire attack far more survivable. By the way, I don't see anywhere where this is a mandated tactic. I didn't say it was.Use it when it applies, Just like I said, although I don't think it will apply often.don't when it doesn't, including when manpower doesn't allowAgain, like I said.

    Um, as far as how does a firefighter keep the door closed and hump hose at the same time. You're kidding right? You aren't closing the door tightly on the hose, you are closing it most of the way. Are you trying to control air coming in, or a salesman? Do you not think the velocity of the air will increase if the opening is somewhat restricted? If you put a piece of webbing on the door kneel or stand on it to control the door while you feed hose.
    The open space of the average front door with an 1 3/4" line going in will be in the neighborhood of 2 square feet. That's a lot of space for air to enter, even with door control. My goal is to put wet stuff on the red stuff. If that involves a transitional attack, fine. But if I'm that worried that I'm going to get caught in a jet of fire just because the door behind me is open, it's time to go defensive and use other tactics until we can reenter. If it's that volatile inside, nobody is likely to still be alive. You do what works for you, but around here I just don't see that scenario playing out knowing what the fire charactaristics are of the buildings here.

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    Application of water from the exterior has nothing to do with controlling flowpaths via ventilation practices. Too many guys think the UL/NIST research was about blitz attack. Others think it's only about door control. These are minor parts of the picture. The lessons learned from the research are more about the negative effect of air intake to a ventilation limited fire via ANY opening we may make. And it's about what happens in the fire area AND adjacent areas when this happens. It's also about the effects of water when applied to areas other than the area of fire origin. There is a ton of information. No one will understand it all by reading a forum on the internet or a magazine article.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    The open space of the average front door with an 1 3/4" line going in will be in the neighborhood of 2 square feet. That's a lot of space for air to enter, even with door control. My goal is to put wet stuff on the red stuff. If that involves a transitional attack, fine. But if I'm that worried that I'm going to get caught in a jet of fire just because the door behind me is open, it's time to go defensive and use other tactics until we can reenter. If it's that volatile inside, nobody is likely to still be alive. You do what works for you, but around here I just don't see that scenario playing out knowing what the fire charactaristics are of the buildings here.
    I don't mean this as a personal attack but your statements are a perfect example of the ignorance that is out there. Restricting the size of the opening DOES slow the air movement. Yes, air will enter but it will do so more slowly. The ventilation limited (air-starved) fire will remain limited for a longer period of time. This buys us more time to get the line in place or searches done, at least partially, before the entire area lights up.
    You talk about the "fire characteristics of the buildings" there as if those characteristics change from place to place. They do not change. Physics is physics. Doesn't matter where you are.
    Your goal is "to put the wet stuff on the red stuff"? It's a good goal. But firefighting has a progression: Locate, Confine, Extinguish. Maybe you've heard of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    I'd like to know what you are doing and how successful it is or has been.
    So far I've not gotten any further than writing an article for the "Paper" along the lines of a PSA and one short "from the hip" conversation with the tenants of an elderly housing complex. Those in attendence seemed to actually "get it" when it was explained why it was so important to keep their doors closed and not blocked open as they socialize throught the day.

    I'd like to expand on the idea to have an adult Ed one night class on real world fire safety and a little Q&A on what the FD does and why we do things. I'm not so sure there's an audience for that, maybe a Rotary or Kiwani's meeting. In general people think that having smoke detectors are enough, but don't realize they do nothing to protect their home if no one is home to hear them and call 911.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    T If it's that volatile inside, nobody is likely to still be alive.
    Not trying to ple on more criticism, but this too has been dis-proven. Where people have been found in rooms with doors closed, their survivability is far higher. Things can be going to hell all around and even a hollowcore door can provide a significant measure of safety. Not speaking to fire out every window. Watch the 30 Dowling Circle presentation by the ATF and Balto-Co. it's enlightening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    I was talking more about the stream placement portion rather than controlling ventilation and air movement. I agree 100% that controlling ventilation is absolutely going to be a good idea, but there are times when application of water from the exterior is not a good tactic.

    I don't believe anyone is saying always do a transitional attack. The problem is there are probably far more instances where it could be, and should be, done to make an interior attack safer and it wasn't done.

    A room and contents fire may have fire showing out of the window, but that doesn't mean it needs to be hit from outside. My point was that there are people who, without the proper training will do it all the time as their default mode.

    People without proper training will, on average, screww things up at a much higher rate than those properly trained. Perhaps if there are no lives to be saved those poorly trained firefighters are better off doing an exterior attack instead of going inside, getting in trouble and becoming another name on the firefighter memorial wall. The real question should be why aren't they trained properly?
    I don't necessarily disagree with anything you posted. It is sad to think today that untrained firefighters is the reason not to embrace new ideas in frefighting though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Not trying to ple on more criticism, but this too has been dis-proven. Where people have been found in rooms with doors closed, their survivability is far higher. Things can be going to hell all around and even a hollowcore door can provide a significant measure of safety. Not speaking to fire out every window. Watch the 30 Dowling Circle presentation by the ATF and Balto-Co. it's enlightening.
    Great point! The research revealed a lot about survivability in different areas of the structure. Again, I suggest this material be seriously studied before rejecting it as just a tool in the tool box.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    So far I've not gotten any further than writing an article for the "Paper" along the lines of a PSA and one short "from the hip" conversation with the tenants of an elderly housing complex. Those in attendence seemed to actually "get it" when it was explained why it was so important to keep their doors closed and not blocked open as they socialize throught the day.

    I'd like to expand on the idea to have an adult Ed one night class on real world fire safety and a little Q&A on what the FD does and why we do things. I'm not so sure there's an audience for that, maybe a Rotary or Kiwani's meeting. In general people think that having smoke detectors are enough, but don't realize they do nothing to protect their home if no one is home to hear them and call 911.
    I like the idea of presenting it to the civic service-type organizations. I've generally found those type of organizations to be very helpful and generally approach everything with an open mind and a willingness to listen.

    I've tried to spread the word via some videos on our department's Facebook page, as that seems to have about the widest audience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Not trying to ple on more criticism, but this too has been dis-proven. Where people have been found in rooms with doors closed, their survivability is far higher. Things can be going to hell all around and even a hollowcore door can provide a significant measure of safety. Not speaking to fire out every window. Watch the 30 Dowling Circle presentation by the ATF and Balto-Co. it's enlightening.
    Here's the link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsa4mI0rO-o
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I don't mean this as a personal attack but your statements are a perfect example of the ignorance that is out there.Ignorance??? Not hardly. I'm just injecting reality into the equation. Restricting the size of the opening DOES slow the air movement. Yes, air will enter but it will do so more slowly. And the time span on this is what??The ventilation limited (air-starved) fire will remain limited for a longer period of time. Which won't be long if the situation is that volatile.This buys us more time to get the line in place or searches done, at least partially, before the entire area lights up.
    You talk about the "fire characteristics of the buildings" there as if those characteristics change from place to place. Uh, excuse me, but the fire load most certainly varies, as does the construction and layout of various buildings. This does cause variances in fire spread.They do not change. Physics is physics. Doesn't matter where you are.
    Your goal is "to put the wet stuff on the red stuff"? It's a good goal. But firefighting has a progression: Locate, Confine, Extinguish. Maybe you've heard of this.
    Please don't patronize. My point is that you need to size up the situation, and be aware of changing conditions. Door control at best is going to be a minor consideration in most fire situations due to many other factors. We have VES, transitional attack, rescue, exposure, manpower, etc. to consider as well.
    The original post concerned the LAFD video, that's what I've addressed.

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    Door control should not be looked upon as minor.

    You say we should be aware of changing conditions. I assume you refer to deteriorating conditions. I agree, but I would take it a step further. How about we be aware of changing conditions and also be aware of things we can do to stop things from deteriorating.

    Do you agree that venting every window in a structure can be counterproductive? If you do, then you should agree that improper venting via doors can also be unproductive.

    I don't see how door control prevents you from considering transitional attack, VES, rescue, exposures, manpower, etc. Door control could make all of those things safer and easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Door control should not be looked upon as minor.

    You say we should be aware of changing conditions. I assume you refer to deteriorating conditions. I agree, but I would take it a step further. How about we be aware of changing conditions and also be aware of things we can do to stop things from deteriorating.

    Do you agree that venting every window in a structure can be counterproductive? If you do, then you should agree that improper venting via doors can also be unproductive.

    I don't see how door control prevents you from considering transitional attack, VES, rescue, exposures, manpower, etc. Door control could make all of those things safer and easier.
    My VFD is looking very deeply into this, and adjusting our assignments as well. We have never had a door control position, and quite frankly, never did much in the way of door control, but that is likely to change here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Do you agree that venting every window in a structure can be counterproductive?
    Tee hee...

    We've got a department in our area for whom "take a window" means everybody grabs a tool and takes a window... Geez, they like to break glass...
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Application of water from the exterior has nothing to do with controlling flowpaths via ventilation practices. Too many guys think the UL/NIST research was about blitz attack. Others think it's only about door control. These are minor parts of the picture. The lessons learned from the research are more about the negative effect of air intake to a ventilation limited fire via ANY opening we may make. And it's about what happens in the fire area AND adjacent areas when this happens. It's also about the effects of water when applied to areas other than the area of fire origin. There is a ton of information. No one will understand it all by reading a forum on the internet or a magazine article.
    I took a 6 hour class at our State Fire School last weekend that was essentially a case study of the Governor's Island studies. There is so much information to sort through from that study it could have easily been a 12 hour class. Captnjack is right on the money, you can't understand it by just reading a little here and there. There is so much info there and a lot of the results were not quite what they were expecting.

    My department has been doing a lot of things like door control, vent path control, and transitional attack for years. For us these things were done because we have very limited manpower and we figured out that it worked. It was nice to get some of the science behind why it works. Now I'm not saying that these are the only tactics we use, they are just "tools in the toolbox" for us and, in my opinion, the more tools you have the better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Door control should not be looked upon as minor.

    You say we should be aware of changing conditions. I assume you refer to deteriorating conditions. YesI agree, but I would take it a step further. How about we be aware of changing conditions and also be aware of things we can do to stop things from deteriorating. Most certainly, that was one of my points.

    Do you agree that venting every window in a structure can be counterproductive? Of course.If you do, then you should agree that improper venting via doors can also be unproductive.

    I don't see how door control prevents you from considering transitional attack, VES, rescue, exposures, manpower, etc. Door control could make all of those things safer and easier.
    I would put door control last on that list. All those other things are more likely to be viable scenarios and more likely to influence the tactics used. Door control in my opinion is going to require a "perfect storm" of manpower, conditions, and training. And even with the manpower, many fires are not going to require door control. You can be ready for it if you need to, but I don't see where it will be needed or possible all that often, at least in this area. It's in my toolbox, at the back of a drawer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I would put door control last on that list. All those other things are more likely to be viable scenarios and more likely to influence the tactics used. Door control in my opinion is going to require a "perfect storm" of manpower, conditions, and training. And even with the manpower, many fires are not going to require door control. You can be ready for it if you need to, but I don't see where it will be needed or possible all that often, at least in this area. It's in my toolbox, at the back of a drawer...
    Put it where ever you wish. But the truth is many times excuses are far easier than actually embracing new and perhaps lifesaving procedures in the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    The open space of the average front door with an 1 3/4" line going in will be in the neighborhood of 2 square feet. That's a lot of space for air to enter, even with door control. My goal is to put wet stuff on the red stuff. If that involves a transitional attack, fine. But if I'm that worried that I'm going to get caught in a jet of fire just because the door behind me is open, it's time to go defensive and use other tactics until we can reenter. If it's that volatile inside, nobody is likely to still be alive. You do what works for you, but around here I just don't see that scenario playing out knowing what the fire charactaristics are of the buildings here.
    Using your number of 2 square feet of opening with the door pulled back instead of around 20 square feet of opening with the door wide open is a big difference. Also if on your 360 walk around you notice several windows open or the fire has vented itself, the door control and the flow path is less of a issue because the flow path is already there. The use of door control is when you find no or a couple of open windows and the fire has not yet vented itself.

    Our VES now includes flow control. Vent the room, enter the room, close the door, and then search.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I would put door control last on that list. All those other things are more likely to be viable scenarios and more likely to influence the tactics used. Door control in my opinion is going to require a "perfect storm" of manpower, conditions, and training. And even with the manpower, many fires are not going to require door control. You can be ready for it if you need to, but I don't see where it will be needed or possible all that often, at least in this area. It's in my toolbox, at the back of a drawer...
    You've made reference to your area several times. I'd love to know how the fires and buildings are so drastically different in your area. This is all about fire behavior. Fires don't know what town they're in.

    Control of the flowpath only really comes into play when we arrive at ventilation limited fires. With modern synthetic contents and tighter building envelopes, including windows that don't easily fail on their own, it is common for fire to be in that stage by the time we arrive. Uncontrolled ventilation is a bad tactic under these conditions. Period. Doesn't matter if it's a door or a window.

    It really doesn't require a perfect storm of manpower, conditions and training. How hard is it to close the door behind you if you enter ahead of a hoseline for search? How hard is it to keep the door at least partially closed while stretching/advancing line. I admit that it is often possible to ignore door control once the charged line is moving in. You'll likely get water to begin cooling before any flashover occurs. Complex floorplans or hoarding conditions will slow advance and make the need for door control more likely. As would larger floor areas and accompanying longer stretch.

    Having someone at the entrance door provides for overall monitoring of the area, allows for assistance feeding hose, and makes it possible to assist interior members getting back out in case withdrawal is called for. Many departments probably have SOP's that call for a firefighter in the door area anyway. Might as well control ventilation while he/she is there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Our VES now includes flow control. Vent the room, enter the room, close the door, and then search.
    Interesting....closing the door was always in ours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Interesting....closing the door was always in ours.
    And ours too. Unfortunately I think that some people didn't understand that thus the renaming of VES some places to VEIS. Vent, Enter, ISOLATE, search. Spelling out clearly closing the door as part of the VES operation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Interesting....closing the door was always in ours.
    It was ours as well, but it was on the way by the door. If it was open check the hallway for a victim, if closed check for heat and if cool open, check hallway and close, if hot leave it closed. Now making sure the door is closed is first priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    It was ours as well, but it was on the way by the door. If it was open check the hallway for a victim, if closed check for heat and if cool open, check hallway and close, if hot leave it closed. Now making sure the door is closed is first priority.
    Perfect example of a minor change in tactics that significantly controls flowpath. No need for major training program, equipment purchases, added staffing, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Perfect example of a minor change in tactics that significantly controls flowpath. No need for major training program, equipment purchases, added staffing, etc.
    Damn it! There you go speaking logically again...
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