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Thread: Hey let's see if we can get a fire topic to go more than 5 posts befoe we let it die!

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    Here is the biggest issue I have:

    In 25 years of being involved in the fire service, I have seen numerous times, a fire stream trained into a window that had fire coming out of it only to see fire pop out an opposite window or door 30 seconds.

    I have been coming down the hall and had a sudden on rush of flames and temperatures elevate rapidly only to find out someone tried to knock down from the outside because they didn't think we were getting there fast enough..

    Now some scientists come along and say that technically you can't push fire. I call BS. If you have a limited amount of fire - like in a single room, you may not push it much, but fire beyond that room will be affected by the air that goes in along with the fire and what doesn't go out will intensify. The natural "flow path" is out the window that you are not spraying water in.

    Ever heard that it is scientifically impossible for a bumblebee to fly? Google that one and be amazed the next time you see a bee flying around that hasn't yet heard it should not be able to fly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Here is the biggest issue I have:

    In 25 years of being involved in the fire service, I have seen numerous times, a fire stream trained into a window that had fire coming out of it only to see fire pop out an opposite window or door 30 seconds.

    I have been coming down the hall and had a sudden on rush of flames and temperatures elevate rapidly only to find out someone tried to knock down from the outside because they didn't think we were getting there fast enough..

    Now some scientists come along and say that technically you can't push fire. I call BS. If you have a limited amount of fire - like in a single room, you may not push it much, but fire beyond that room will be affected by the air that goes in along with the fire and what doesn't go out will intensify. The natural "flow path" is out the window that you are not spraying water in.

    Ever heard that it is scientifically impossible for a bumblebee to fly? Google that one and be amazed the next time you see a bee flying around that hasn't yet heard it should not be able to fly.
    So you've seen fire out one window and then out another window shortly after a stream operated into the window? That does not tell us that the fire was pushed by the stream. It onlty tells us that fire vented out another window. Nothing happens exclusive of other acts. If someone ran around the house and broke all the windows, the fire may have been heading toward that opening anyway. Or maybe the stream and it's accompanying air movement created an obstacle to air movement out the original window. So what did the fire do? It found a new flowpath.

    Your example of the hallway where you had a rapid increase in fire intensity could also just be normal fire behavior. With the window and door open, the fire had it's flowpath. It was either going out the window or down the hallway and out the door you entered through. Again, maybe the stream at the window put enough of an obstacle in the fire's path to make it vent in your direction instead.

    I can't say for sure. But I don't think you can say for sure that the only explanation for these events is a stream pushing fire.

    What I can say for sure is that during the FDNY/NIST/UL tests on Governor's Island, water was applied to fires from the exterior and from one interior area to another. In all tests, when water was applied, temperatures dropped THROUGHOUT THE STRUCTURE. There was not a single instance where fire intensified or temperatures increased opposite the stream. The test structure allowed for fire to be pushed as it was "railroad flat" or "shotgun style" room layout. But fire was never pushed. Thermocouplings were placed at one foot intervals from floor to ceiling in every room and at top and bottom of stairs. If fire was being pushed, it would have registered.

    The tests were not designed to prove some scientists point about pushing fire. The part about pushing fire was merely a surprise byproduct of the ventilation tactics at the heart of the tests.

    I don't much care about bumblebees. We all know they can fly because we've all seen them fly. There can be no other explanation other than that they can indeed fly. Your seeing fire out one window and then another could have multiple explanations. Pushing fire is not automatically the one and only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Here is the biggest issue I have:

    In 25 years of being involved in the fire service, I have seen numerous times, a fire stream trained into a window that had fire coming out of it only to see fire pop out an opposite window or door 30 seconds.

    I have been coming down the hall and had a sudden on rush of flames and temperatures elevate rapidly only to find out someone tried to knock down from the outside because they didn't think we were getting there fast enough..

    Now some scientists come along and say that technically you can't push fire. I call BS. If you have a limited amount of fire - like in a single room, you may not push it much, but fire beyond that room will be affected by the air that goes in along with the fire and what doesn't go out will intensify. The natural "flow path" is out the window that you are not spraying water in.

    Ever heard that it is scientifically impossible for a bumblebee to fly? Google that one and be amazed the next time you see a bee flying around that hasn't yet heard it should not be able to fly.
    First of all, the use of exterior streams onto interior crews is not what this is about anyways. the exterior hit is designed to cool the overall atmosphere to lessen or even eliminate the possibility of flashover and to make the area easier to advance into.

    Secondly, I have said for a good part of my career anyone operating a hoseline onto interior crews from the exterior during an offensive interior attack should get their face introduced to the broad side of a flat head axe. I have been there felt that and the pi ssed offness that I felt was so high it wasn't even readable on the scale any longer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Here is the biggest issue I have:

    In 25 years of being involved in the fire service, I have seen numerous times, a fire stream trained into a window that had fire coming out of it only to see fire pop out an opposite window or door 30 seconds.

    I have been coming down the hall and had a sudden on rush of flames and temperatures elevate rapidly only to find out someone tried to knock down from the outside because they didn't think we were getting there fast enough..

    Now some scientists come along and say that technically you can't push fire. I call BS. If you have a limited amount of fire - like in a single room, you may not push it much, but fire beyond that room will be affected by the air that goes in along with the fire and what doesn't go out will intensify. The natural "flow path" is out the window that you are not spraying water in.

    Ever heard that it is scientifically impossible for a bumblebee to fly? Google that one and be amazed the next time you see a bee flying around that hasn't yet heard it should not be able to fly.
    I have been monitoring this thread and there is certainly some good information going around here. First of all, let me say that the FDNY/NIST testing information is another great tool to have in the toolbox. It is about time someone does some scientific testing on how we fight fires. It is also about time that we change our thinking of how we fight them.

    What you are saying is that you have felt the heat of someone blasting a hose stream in a window when you were on the inside. This isn't "pushing fire" but rather that stream disturbs the thermal balance in the room and therefore "pushes" the heat and steam down to your level. I have had that happen to me on a few occasions and like Fyredup says, you can't fathom the ******ed off-ness that I felt and let that person know about it too!!

    I also have been in the fire service for 24 years now and this "new" information from NIST goes against everything I was taught over the years and it was hard to wrap my head around it. When I first started I was told to direct my stream into the window that fire was coming out of to knock it down and then go in and put the rest out. Then they said no, don't do that, go inside and get it. Go from the unburned to the burned side so you don't "push" it through the house. This "pushing" theory was just that, a theory that became a common thought over the years. If you notice in the videos, when they blasted the hose into the window it did disturb the air currents inside the structure but the science of it is that it cooled it down. We didn't know that before. Now we know.

    I think we should take this new information and adjust our tactics, at least our thoughts and understanding of why we do things. We shouldn't do things just because "that's how we always have done it that way"...rather we use that understanding to our advantage. It's not the silver bullet as mentioned before. Just another tool in the toolbox.
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    Bottom line, and it don't take a NIST study to figure this out; fire is looking for 2 things oxygen and fuel. As far as pushing fire, well it's much the same theory of sucking-you don't "suck" something up, you create a low pressure area and atmospheric pressure "pushes" the fluid into that area.
    Now lets put that into the context of a fire, if you do have fire blowing out of a window, it's a good chance it's gone beyond the incipient phase. So here you come and decide to blow water into that window. Unless you get right to the seat, that fire is going to do it's best to find another oxygen source. That being another window, and open door, hell even an open damper on a fireplace. Sounds like a very plausible reason for fire to spread throughout. So with that in mind, it's just more than your window and the flow path it creates that needs to be taken in account. So the question that needs to be answered-can you control all those variables?
    As far as the study saying it reduced temps everywhere in the structure, ok. But why do we use water? Because it expands greatly displacing the oxygen-so tell me how that's good for a victim?
    As far as these studies, yes I read them and try to place those results into my experience and district. Well to be honest, they don't fit neatly most of the time. Unfortunately I'm not in a nice bedroom community. I'm in the middle of a fairly depressed area-99% balloon frame construction, zero lot lines, active transient housing (many with ESL), illegal apts., illegal structural modifications, illegal bedrooms in basements with no windows, owner modified heat ducts, and the list goes on. So yes, I read them, but like many have said, it's another tool and a little more knowledge to assist. But to blindly follow it without a real world comparison to what your community has to offer is setting yourself up for disaster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I have been monitoring this thread and there is certainly some good information going around here. First of all, let me say that the FDNY/NIST testing information is another great tool to have in the toolbox. It is about time someone does some scientific testing on how we fight fires. It is also about time that we change our thinking of how we fight them.

    What you are saying is that you have felt the heat of someone blasting a hose stream in a window when you were on the inside. This isn't "pushing fire" but rather that stream disturbs the thermal balance in the room and therefore "pushes" the heat and steam down to your level. I have had that happen to me on a few occasions and like Fyredup says, you can't fathom the ******ed off-ness that I felt and let that person know about it too!!

    I also have been in the fire service for 24 years now and this "new" information from NIST goes against everything I was taught over the years and it was hard to wrap my head around it. When I first started I was told to direct my stream into the window that fire was coming out of to knock it down and then go in and put the rest out. Then they said no, don't do that, go inside and get it. Go from the unburned to the burned side so you don't "push" it through the house. This "pushing" theory was just that, a theory that became a common thought over the years. If you notice in the videos, when they blasted the hose into the window it did disturb the air currents inside the structure but the science of it is that it cooled it down. We didn't know that before. Now we know.

    I think we should take this new information and adjust our tactics, at least our thoughts and understanding of why we do things. We shouldn't do things just because "that's how we always have done it that way"...rather we use that understanding to our advantage. It's not the silver bullet as mentioned before. Just another tool in the toolbox.
    I have long suspected that this "pushing fire" theory was invented long ago by a guy or guys who had steam pushed into their faces. Picture a firefighter entering a house or apartment through a window for search. He has no hood, or SCBA or bunker gear. The line is opened up. Steam is created. It expands and is pushed ahead of the line because the stream does create air movement (no one is denying this). That firefighter suddenly feels heat that he didn't feel before because it was dry heat stratified at the ceiling level. He concludes that fire was pushed at him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Bottom line, and it don't take a NIST study to figure this out; fire is looking for 2 things oxygen and fuel. As far as pushing fire, well it's much the same theory of sucking-you don't "suck" something up, you create a low pressure area and atmospheric pressure "pushes" the fluid into that area.
    Now lets put that into the context of a fire, if you do have fire blowing out of a window, it's a good chance it's gone beyond the incipient phase. So here you come and decide to blow water into that window. Unless you get right to the seat, that fire is going to do it's best to find another oxygen source. That being another window, and open door, hell even an open damper on a fireplace. Sounds like a very plausible reason for fire to spread throughout. So with that in mind, it's just more than your window and the flow path it creates that needs to be taken in account. So the question that needs to be answered-can you control all those variables?
    As far as the study saying it reduced temps everywhere in the structure, ok. But why do we use water? Because it expands greatly displacing the oxygen-so tell me how that's good for a victim?
    As far as these studies, yes I read them and try to place those results into my experience and district. Well to be honest, they don't fit neatly most of the time. Unfortunately I'm not in a nice bedroom community. I'm in the middle of a fairly depressed area-99% balloon frame construction, zero lot lines, active transient housing (many with ESL), illegal apts., illegal structural modifications, illegal bedrooms in basements with no windows, owner modified heat ducts, and the list goes on. So yes, I read them, but like many have said, it's another tool and a little more knowledge to assist. But to blindly follow it without a real world comparison to what your community has to offer is setting yourself up for disaster.
    Your response area sounds a lot like some of mine. I also have ****ty attached frame MD's. You said yourself that fires need air. Type of structure doesn't matter. There may be fewer openings due to attached construction making for less windows. If you enter through a door and chock that door open, you now have created a flow path. Fresh air can be drawn in at bottom of door opening and hot air vented out the top of the opening. A ventilation limited fire could light up and blow right out the entrance door. Rapid application of water obviously would prevent this. The problem would be when a team enters for search ahead of a line being in place. They could end up in a bad situation that could have been prevented simply by controlling the entrance door until line was in place.

    If a fire can be confined behind a closed door while known victims are removed from the area, I'm all for it. Otherwise, there is really no way around putting water on the high heat. Victims in an area open to the fire have most likely ran short of oxygen long beforewe open a line up. Quick removal and medical treatment is the best answer either way.

    Do you advocate holding off on extinguishment until all searches have been conducted and all rescues completed? Probably not. So steam generation is a necessary evil. Flow path control prior to water application has little to do with it. Additionally, properly timed horizontal ventilation ahead of the line is still a good tactic for venting steam. No one is saying all ventilation must be done away with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I have long suspected that this "pushing fire" theory was invented long ago by a guy or guys who had steam pushed into their faces. ...
    Probably by a department that was using a fog pattern through the window as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    You've made reference to your area several times. I'd love to know how the fires and buildings are so drastically different in your area. Very few of the fires I've been on in this area could be considered vent limited due to whatever factors that happened to be present at that fire. I kinda made that point several times that certain situations have to be present...This is all about fire behavior. Fires don't know what town they're in.

    Control of the flowpath only really comes into play when we arrive at ventilation limited fires. With modern synthetic contents and tighter building envelopes, including windows that don't easily fail on their own, it is common for fire to be in that stage by the time we arrive. Uncontrolled ventilation is a bad tactic under these conditions. I never said it wasn't, nor did I ever call for uncoordinated ventilation.Period. Doesn't matter if it's a door or a window.

    It really doesn't require a perfect storm of manpower, conditions and training. How hard is it to close the door behind you if you enter ahead of a hoseline for search? Nowhere did I talk about closing (or not closing) a door during a search ahead of a hoseline. I addressed the door the hoseline was going in, PERIOD.How hard is it to keep the door at least partially closed while stretching/advancing line. With a 3 man crew? Kinda hard. Especially when you have to go to the second floor.I admit that it is often possible to ignore door control once the charged line is moving in. You'll likely get water to begin cooling before any flashover occurs. Complex floorplans or hoarding conditions will slow advance and make the need for door control more likely. As would larger floor areas and accompanying longer stretch.

    Having someone at the entrance door provides for overall monitoring of the area, allows for assistance feeding hose, and makes it possible to assist interior members getting back out in case withdrawal is called for. Many departments probably have SOP's that call for a firefighter in the door area anyway. Might as well control ventilation while he/she is there.And that's nice IF you have the manpower.
    I love how you read more into my posts than what's there. Flow path is what is important, we can generally figure how that will be managed, or if it's already established on size up. I'm generally going to do my best not to be in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Put it where ever you wish. But the truth is many times excuses are far easier than actually embracing new and perhaps lifesaving procedures in the fire service.
    What your excuse for poor reading comprehension?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    What your excuse for poor reading comprehension?
    Probably the same as yours for a bad attitude...

    I read what you said. You have pooh poohed this at every turn, excuse after excuse why you can't do it. Then you said you would put it in your tool box, in the back. We get it, you don't think it is a valid idea for your area. Hooray for you.

    I on the other hand don't believe it will get used at every fire, especially well advanced ones, but I do believe ventilation control is a key and if, when itis viable, closing the door even part way controls the flow path, we will do it. I have already begun training on some of the aspects of this as well as the transitional attack. Stagnation is a killer in this business and fires simply aren't the same as they were even 20 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I love how you read more into my posts than what's there. Flow path is what is important, we can generally figure how that will be managed, or if it's already established on size up. I'm generally going to do my best not to be in it.
    I think we all read too much into posts at times. Or misinterpret. It's a drawback of the written word. We would understand eachother so much better in a face to face discussion. Forums like this are not perfect but we do get to interact with people who we would never otherwise be able to.

    Here is what I'm trying to say:
    If we arrive at a structural fire that has reached a ventilation limited stage, ventilation done prior to the line being ready to advance on fire can result in a flashover. The entrance door is a vent point.

    The only way to survive such a flashover is immediate withdrawal or immediate application of water. 30 seconds is not immediate. Our gear is not designed to last that long in a free burning atmosphere.

    The average building where I work is about 100 years old. Many have had the windows and doors replaced. Energy efficient windows have been around for about 40 years now. They are everywhere. Having window failure due to heat, with fire self venting, can't be relied upon as the norm. It still happens, but IMO less frequently.
    Modern contents burn rapidly with high smoke production. Fires can reach ventilation limited stage within minutes.
    The above two reasons make it surprising to me that "very few" of the fires you've been to have been ventilation limited. Maybe it's a climate thing? Moderate temperatures allowing for many open windows?

    If you enter a structure with a ventilation limited fire without controlling the door, you are definitely creating a flowpath and you are definitely in that flowpath. This may not be a problem, depending on the status of the hoseline. If the area flashes it won't be enough to just be out of the flowpath. You'll need to be isolated from the fire by a closed door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Probably the same as yours for a bad attitude...
    I wasn't aware that being realistit was "attitude".
    I read what you said. You have pooh poohed this at every turn, That would be YOUR attitude. No where did I say it wouldn't work, UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. There's a big difference in the availible oxygen available in the masonry rowhouses used in the study and a many other structures, say a 3,000 sq. ft. McMansion.excuse after excuse why you can't do it. Low manpower is not an "excuse", it's a FACT.Then you said you would put it in your tool box, in the back. We get it, you don't think it is a valid idea for your area. Finally you are starting to comprehend. But if I see the right conditions and we have the manpower, (and more people are TRAINED) I WOULD use it.Hooray for you.

    I on the other hand don't believe it will get used at every fire, especially well advanced ones, but I do believe ventilation control is a keyI believe I said that too... and if, when itis viable, closing the door even part way controls the flow path, we will do it. I have already begun training on some of the aspects of this as well as the transitional attack. Stagnation is a killer in this business and fires simply aren't the same as they were even 20 years ago. No S#it!!!!

    Have a nice day!
    I am having a nice day, 12 ounces at a time...
    And BTW, just did some training on the same topic put on by the training guru's, and it pretty much confirmed what I've been saying. Situational awareness, coordinated ventilation, having a charged handline ready to go, doing a transitional attack when needed, and being safe. You have a good day too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    So you've seen fire out one window and then out another window shortly after a stream operated into the window? That does not tell us that the fire was pushed by the stream. It onlty tells us that fire vented out another window. Nothing happens exclusive of other acts. If someone ran around the house and broke all the windows, the fire may have been heading toward that opening anyway. Or maybe the stream and it's accompanying air movement created an obstacle to air movement out the original window. So what did the fire do? It found a new flowpath.

    Your example of the hallway where you had a rapid increase in fire intensity could also just be normal fire behavior. With the window and door open, the fire had it's flowpath. It was either going out the window or down the hallway and out the door you entered through. Again, maybe the stream at the window put enough of an obstacle in the fire's path to make it vent in your direction instead.

    I can't say for sure. But I don't think you can say for sure that the only explanation for these events is a stream pushing fire.

    What I can say for sure is that during the FDNY/NIST/UL tests on Governor's Island, water was applied to fires from the exterior and from one interior area to another. In all tests, when water was applied, temperatures dropped THROUGHOUT THE STRUCTURE. There was not a single instance where fire intensified or temperatures increased opposite the stream. The test structure allowed for fire to be pushed as it was "railroad flat" or "shotgun style" room layout. But fire was never pushed. Thermocouplings were placed at one foot intervals from floor to ceiling in every room and at top and bottom of stairs. If fire was being pushed, it would have registered.

    The tests were not designed to prove some scientists point about pushing fire. The part about pushing fire was merely a surprise byproduct of the ventilation tactics at the heart of the tests.

    I don't much care about bumblebees. We all know they can fly because we've all seen them fly. There can be no other explanation other than that they can indeed fly. Your seeing fire out one window and then another could have multiple explanations. Pushing fire is not automatically the one and only.
    You created all that speculation, I didn't. I said I saw the negative effects that occurred after introducing exterior streams.
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    As a precursor, I agree with you, but why would anyone who is buying into this technology be ****ed about someone introducing an exterior stream when you are inside? According to the good scientists, the only thing that is going to happen is that temperatures are going to drop inside the structure? That shouldn't make us mad......
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    What you are saying is that you have felt the heat of someone blasting a hose stream in a window when you were on the inside. This isn't "pushing fire" but rather that stream disturbs the thermal balance in the room and therefore "pushes" the heat and steam down to your level. I have had that happen to me on a few occasions and like Fyredup says, you can't fathom the ******ed off-ness that I felt and let that person know about it too!!
    Exactly! So if a victim is in a tenable environment does it really matter if we kill them by pushing fire over them or upsetting the thermal balance and steaming them?
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You created all that speculation, I didn't. I said I saw the negative effects that occurred after introducing exterior streams.
    You hold that streams push fire. You gave some examples. I offered possible alternative reasons for what you saw. Yes, it was speculation.

    Can you offer reasons as to why my alternate scenarios are not valid? I don't know what happened at the fires you mentioned. I'm just trying to dialogue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Exactly! So if a victim is in a tenable environment does it really matter if we kill them by pushing fire over them or upsetting the thermal balance and steaming them?
    For the most part, the reality is that the only tenable place within a structural fire is behind a closed door in a position that is not part of the fire area. They would not be endangered by steam OR pushing of fire, assuming that's possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I am having a nice day, 12 ounces at a time...
    And BTW, just did some training on the same topic put on by the training guru's, and it pretty much confirmed what I've been saying. Situational awareness, coordinated ventilation, having a charged handline ready to go, doing a transitional attack when needed, and being safe. You have a good day too.
    Flowpath control is part of coordinated ventilation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Flowpath control is part of coordinated ventilation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    For the most part, the reality is that the only tenable place within a structural fire is behind a closed door in a position that is not part of the fire area. They would not be endangered by steam OR pushing of fire, assuming that's possible.
    We have had as many, if not more rescues made from the room of origin. Just one the other day; young girl, 100 year old house, illegal bedroom in the basement-no windows, one access, found in the room of origin. I have a feeling if one spent a whole lot of time figuring out flow paths and dropping half their company off for door control, it would have been a recovery.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    We have had as many, if not more rescues made from the room of origin. Just one the other day; young girl, 100 year old house, illegal bedroom in the basement-no windows, one access, found in the room of origin. I have a feeling if one spent a whole lot of time figuring out flow paths and dropping half their company off for door control, it would have been a recovery.
    Seriously, how much time does it take to look at the entry door see smoke venting at the top and know that fresh air is being drawn in at the bottom? If it takes more than a few seconds, or even a minute, I would question the eyesight and the mental capabilites of the person attempting to determine the flow path.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Seriously, how much time does it take to look at the entry door see smoke venting at the top and know that fresh air is being drawn in at the bottom? If it takes more than a few seconds, or even a minute, I would question the eyesight and the mental capabilites of the person attempting to determine the flow path.
    Like everything, FyredUp, to many degrees trying to reinvent the wheel. If you are running a company and these basic don't come naturally, you need to rethink your job.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Like everything, FyredUp, to many degrees trying to reinvent the wheel. If you are running a company and these basic don't come naturally, you need to rethink your job.
    Cop out answer My Brother. The truth is structural fire has evolved and what used to take almost a halh hour to flash under optimal conditions can flash in under 5 today. Plastics produce smoke that acts just like fire that hasn't ignited yet. I look forward to the additional research because if it teaches us new ways to do the job that are safer, faster, and more effective, how can that possibly be bad?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Cop out answer My Brother. The truth is structural fire has evolved and what used to take almost a halh hour to flash under optimal conditions can flash in under 5 today. Plastics produce smoke that acts just like fire that hasn't ignited yet. I look forward to the additional research because if it teaches us new ways to do the job that are safer, faster, and more effective, how can that possibly be bad?
    There is nothing bad about it whats-so-ever, like I originally posted: I read and study the NIST, and other, publications and fit them into my district, my city. Some of the constants stay the same, ie the increased BTU's of our petroleum based everything, the effect of energy efficient windows, wind driven, and etc. But with this evolution of structural fire, I am still working with the same tools that have been around for generations and have stood the test of time. I may be cynical, but as to just accept every NIST study and their magic answers derived out of a controlled environment is setting myself up to fail.
    But to not continue to read, research, and learn is just a s asinine.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 02-27-2014 at 10:30 PM.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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