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Thread: Hey let's see if we can get a fire topic to go more than 5 posts befoe we let it die!

  1. #61
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    What your excuse for poor reading comprehension?
    Probably the same as yours for a bad attitude...

    I read what you said. You have pooh poohed this at every turn, excuse after excuse why you can't do it. Then you said you would put it in your tool box, in the back. We get it, you don't think it is a valid idea for your area. Hooray for you.

    I on the other hand don't believe it will get used at every fire, especially well advanced ones, but I do believe ventilation control is a key and if, when itis viable, closing the door even part way controls the flow path, we will do it. I have already begun training on some of the aspects of this as well as the transitional attack. Stagnation is a killer in this business and fires simply aren't the same as they were even 20 years ago.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I love how you read more into my posts than what's there. Flow path is what is important, we can generally figure how that will be managed, or if it's already established on size up. I'm generally going to do my best not to be in it.
    I think we all read too much into posts at times. Or misinterpret. It's a drawback of the written word. We would understand eachother so much better in a face to face discussion. Forums like this are not perfect but we do get to interact with people who we would never otherwise be able to.

    Here is what I'm trying to say:
    If we arrive at a structural fire that has reached a ventilation limited stage, ventilation done prior to the line being ready to advance on fire can result in a flashover. The entrance door is a vent point.

    The only way to survive such a flashover is immediate withdrawal or immediate application of water. 30 seconds is not immediate. Our gear is not designed to last that long in a free burning atmosphere.

    The average building where I work is about 100 years old. Many have had the windows and doors replaced. Energy efficient windows have been around for about 40 years now. They are everywhere. Having window failure due to heat, with fire self venting, can't be relied upon as the norm. It still happens, but IMO less frequently.
    Modern contents burn rapidly with high smoke production. Fires can reach ventilation limited stage within minutes.
    The above two reasons make it surprising to me that "very few" of the fires you've been to have been ventilation limited. Maybe it's a climate thing? Moderate temperatures allowing for many open windows?

    If you enter a structure with a ventilation limited fire without controlling the door, you are definitely creating a flowpath and you are definitely in that flowpath. This may not be a problem, depending on the status of the hoseline. If the area flashes it won't be enough to just be out of the flowpath. You'll need to be isolated from the fire by a closed door.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Probably the same as yours for a bad attitude...
    I wasn't aware that being realistit was "attitude".
    I read what you said. You have pooh poohed this at every turn, That would be YOUR attitude. No where did I say it wouldn't work, UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. There's a big difference in the availible oxygen available in the masonry rowhouses used in the study and a many other structures, say a 3,000 sq. ft. McMansion.excuse after excuse why you can't do it. Low manpower is not an "excuse", it's a FACT.Then you said you would put it in your tool box, in the back. We get it, you don't think it is a valid idea for your area. Finally you are starting to comprehend. But if I see the right conditions and we have the manpower, (and more people are TRAINED) I WOULD use it.Hooray for you.

    I on the other hand don't believe it will get used at every fire, especially well advanced ones, but I do believe ventilation control is a keyI believe I said that too... and if, when itis viable, closing the door even part way controls the flow path, we will do it. I have already begun training on some of the aspects of this as well as the transitional attack. Stagnation is a killer in this business and fires simply aren't the same as they were even 20 years ago. No S#it!!!!

    Have a nice day!
    I am having a nice day, 12 ounces at a time...
    And BTW, just did some training on the same topic put on by the training guru's, and it pretty much confirmed what I've been saying. Situational awareness, coordinated ventilation, having a charged handline ready to go, doing a transitional attack when needed, and being safe. You have a good day too.

  4. #64
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    So you've seen fire out one window and then out another window shortly after a stream operated into the window? That does not tell us that the fire was pushed by the stream. It onlty tells us that fire vented out another window. Nothing happens exclusive of other acts. If someone ran around the house and broke all the windows, the fire may have been heading toward that opening anyway. Or maybe the stream and it's accompanying air movement created an obstacle to air movement out the original window. So what did the fire do? It found a new flowpath.

    Your example of the hallway where you had a rapid increase in fire intensity could also just be normal fire behavior. With the window and door open, the fire had it's flowpath. It was either going out the window or down the hallway and out the door you entered through. Again, maybe the stream at the window put enough of an obstacle in the fire's path to make it vent in your direction instead.

    I can't say for sure. But I don't think you can say for sure that the only explanation for these events is a stream pushing fire.

    What I can say for sure is that during the FDNY/NIST/UL tests on Governor's Island, water was applied to fires from the exterior and from one interior area to another. In all tests, when water was applied, temperatures dropped THROUGHOUT THE STRUCTURE. There was not a single instance where fire intensified or temperatures increased opposite the stream. The test structure allowed for fire to be pushed as it was "railroad flat" or "shotgun style" room layout. But fire was never pushed. Thermocouplings were placed at one foot intervals from floor to ceiling in every room and at top and bottom of stairs. If fire was being pushed, it would have registered.

    The tests were not designed to prove some scientists point about pushing fire. The part about pushing fire was merely a surprise byproduct of the ventilation tactics at the heart of the tests.

    I don't much care about bumblebees. We all know they can fly because we've all seen them fly. There can be no other explanation other than that they can indeed fly. Your seeing fire out one window and then another could have multiple explanations. Pushing fire is not automatically the one and only.
    You created all that speculation, I didn't. I said I saw the negative effects that occurred after introducing exterior streams.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #65
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    As a precursor, I agree with you, but why would anyone who is buying into this technology be ****ed about someone introducing an exterior stream when you are inside? According to the good scientists, the only thing that is going to happen is that temperatures are going to drop inside the structure? That shouldn't make us mad......
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  6. #66
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    What you are saying is that you have felt the heat of someone blasting a hose stream in a window when you were on the inside. This isn't "pushing fire" but rather that stream disturbs the thermal balance in the room and therefore "pushes" the heat and steam down to your level. I have had that happen to me on a few occasions and like Fyredup says, you can't fathom the ******ed off-ness that I felt and let that person know about it too!!
    Exactly! So if a victim is in a tenable environment does it really matter if we kill them by pushing fire over them or upsetting the thermal balance and steaming them?
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You created all that speculation, I didn't. I said I saw the negative effects that occurred after introducing exterior streams.
    You hold that streams push fire. You gave some examples. I offered possible alternative reasons for what you saw. Yes, it was speculation.

    Can you offer reasons as to why my alternate scenarios are not valid? I don't know what happened at the fires you mentioned. I'm just trying to dialogue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Exactly! So if a victim is in a tenable environment does it really matter if we kill them by pushing fire over them or upsetting the thermal balance and steaming them?
    For the most part, the reality is that the only tenable place within a structural fire is behind a closed door in a position that is not part of the fire area. They would not be endangered by steam OR pushing of fire, assuming that's possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I am having a nice day, 12 ounces at a time...
    And BTW, just did some training on the same topic put on by the training guru's, and it pretty much confirmed what I've been saying. Situational awareness, coordinated ventilation, having a charged handline ready to go, doing a transitional attack when needed, and being safe. You have a good day too.
    Flowpath control is part of coordinated ventilation.

  10. #70
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Flowpath control is part of coordinated ventilation.
    You can't speak to a closed mind. His mind is made up.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    For the most part, the reality is that the only tenable place within a structural fire is behind a closed door in a position that is not part of the fire area. They would not be endangered by steam OR pushing of fire, assuming that's possible.
    We have had as many, if not more rescues made from the room of origin. Just one the other day; young girl, 100 year old house, illegal bedroom in the basement-no windows, one access, found in the room of origin. I have a feeling if one spent a whole lot of time figuring out flow paths and dropping half their company off for door control, it would have been a recovery.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    We have had as many, if not more rescues made from the room of origin. Just one the other day; young girl, 100 year old house, illegal bedroom in the basement-no windows, one access, found in the room of origin. I have a feeling if one spent a whole lot of time figuring out flow paths and dropping half their company off for door control, it would have been a recovery.
    Seriously, how much time does it take to look at the entry door see smoke venting at the top and know that fresh air is being drawn in at the bottom? If it takes more than a few seconds, or even a minute, I would question the eyesight and the mental capabilites of the person attempting to determine the flow path.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Seriously, how much time does it take to look at the entry door see smoke venting at the top and know that fresh air is being drawn in at the bottom? If it takes more than a few seconds, or even a minute, I would question the eyesight and the mental capabilites of the person attempting to determine the flow path.
    Like everything, FyredUp, to many degrees trying to reinvent the wheel. If you are running a company and these basic don't come naturally, you need to rethink your job.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  14. #74
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Like everything, FyredUp, to many degrees trying to reinvent the wheel. If you are running a company and these basic don't come naturally, you need to rethink your job.
    Cop out answer My Brother. The truth is structural fire has evolved and what used to take almost a halh hour to flash under optimal conditions can flash in under 5 today. Plastics produce smoke that acts just like fire that hasn't ignited yet. I look forward to the additional research because if it teaches us new ways to do the job that are safer, faster, and more effective, how can that possibly be bad?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #75
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Cop out answer My Brother. The truth is structural fire has evolved and what used to take almost a halh hour to flash under optimal conditions can flash in under 5 today. Plastics produce smoke that acts just like fire that hasn't ignited yet. I look forward to the additional research because if it teaches us new ways to do the job that are safer, faster, and more effective, how can that possibly be bad?
    There is nothing bad about it whats-so-ever, like I originally posted: I read and study the NIST, and other, publications and fit them into my district, my city. Some of the constants stay the same, ie the increased BTU's of our petroleum based everything, the effect of energy efficient windows, wind driven, and etc. But with this evolution of structural fire, I am still working with the same tools that have been around for generations and have stood the test of time. I may be cynical, but as to just accept every NIST study and their magic answers derived out of a controlled environment is setting myself up to fail.
    But to not continue to read, research, and learn is just a s asinine.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 02-27-2014 at 09:30 PM.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Cop out answer My Brother. The truth is structural fire has evolved and what used to take almost a halh hour to flash under optimal conditions can flash in under 5 today. Plastics produce smoke that acts just like fire that hasn't ignited yet. I look forward to the additional research because if it teaches us new ways to do the job that are safer, faster, and more effective, how can that possibly be bad?
    I think this is one of the reasons that most of the time we're (I mean my local area) gonna be past the point of door control. With the larger homes in my area, there's a lot of available air to feed a fire before it's vent limited, and by then a window or some other failure allows a flow path to the fire. Unless we're lucky and catch it while it's still small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    We have had as many, if not more rescues made from the room of origin. Just one the other day; young girl, 100 year old house, illegal bedroom in the basement-no windows, one access, found in the room of origin. I have a feeling if one spent a whole lot of time figuring out flow paths and dropping half their company off for door control, it would have been a recovery.
    You don't have to stop and figure out anything concerning flowpaths. Just be aware that you may be creating one. If you have good response times, good water supply and agressive engine companies with decent staffing, then ventilation induced flashover will rarely be a problem. The idea is to understand fire behavior and the effects our actions can have on it. No one wants to cripple you. The people who think there is a big push to reinvent the wheel probably don't really understand the research.

    Would door control have PREVENTED (or even delayed) you from making the grab of that girl in the bedroom?
    RFDACM02, WVFD705 and conrad427 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    There is nothing bad about it whats-so-ever, like I originally posted: I read and study the NIST, and other, publications and fit them into my district, my city. Some of the constants stay the same, ie the increased BTU's of our petroleum based everything, the effect of energy efficient windows, wind driven, and etc. But with this evolution of structural fire, I am still working with the same tools that have been around for generations and have stood the test of time. I may be cynical, but as to just accept every NIST study and their magic answers derived out of a controlled environment is setting myself up to fail.
    But to not continue to read, research, and learn is just a s asinine.
    You didn't have bunker gear, SCBA, thermal imaging or hydraulic forcible entry tools generations ago. You can go deeper into a high heat area, and do it more quickly, than previous generations.

    The research provides no magic answers. Just information. It is up to us to figure out the answers. One answer is controlled ventilation.

    The test environment was not all that controlled. Real buildings with real contents that were set on fire. And then extinguished. With everything monitored scientifically. They didn't set out to prove anything. They set out to learn. And they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    You didn't have bunker gear, SCBA, thermal imaging or hydraulic forcible entry tools generations ago. You can go deeper into a high heat area, and do it more quickly, than previous generations.

    The research provides no magic answers. Just information. It is up to us to figure out the answers. One answer is controlled ventilation.

    The test environment was not all that controlled. Real buildings with real contents that were set on fire. And then extinguished. With everything monitored scientifically. They didn't set out to prove anything. They set out to learn. And they did.
    At the end of the day, the fire went out with water applied to the seat.

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    Wow, I find it hard to believe so many "professionals" can't see beyond it's one way or the other? I've yet to see anyone suggest that any of this information provides a singular approach to every interior fire, but on the other hand I do see a few arguing that it's not relevant to them, their situation or their geographical location. BS! Just understanding the information allows you to consider more factors when making decisions. Maybe you method doesn't change today or tomorrow, but there may be a day with a fire that you'll draw on something and change it up. It appears that some don't like a certain part of what NIST/UL/FDNY/CFD and others learned, therefore they're closing the door on the whole thing. I guess some of you already know it all, and we know what that means...

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