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Thread: LDH intake on the drivers side? NFPA standard?

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    It seems to me that, generally speaking, the larger hoses operate under the lower pressures and the smaller hoses operate under the higher pressures. Why so much concern over large diameter discharge? If it was a compromise, it wasn't a great one IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Actually most injuries from fire hose failures occur during testing. In other words, pressurized hose. That is why the NFPA safety committee has been lobbying to get all discharges removed from the pump operator area. The LDH stipulation is a compromise. You can call it silly if you want but would you really want to be straddling LDH supplying an older aerial at full flow if some moron in the bucket slammed the quarter turn valve for the monitor off? Or perhaps an angry truck driver that is running late decides to drive over the hose downstream of your position at full flow?

    As for the 6" steamer inlets, they are still there on a lot of apparatus, for drafting. Without them it would be nearly impossible to get rated flow at draft. Again, there is no restriction on having them at the pump operator's position. What was your point?
    IMO, a quarter turn shut off for an aerial monitor is not the best choice. Rapid shut down can make bad things happen, as you pointed out. Large diameter discharge being on the other side of the rig in that situation could still be a problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    IMO, a quarter turn shut off for an aerial monitor is not the best choice. Rapid shut down can make bad things happen, as you pointed out. Large diameter discharge being on the other side of the rig in that situation could still be a problem
    Which is precisely why NFPA1901 requires any discharge valve larger than 2" internal I.D. be of the slow-close/wheel-operated type.
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    Thank you all. Great discussion. Yes...that word is "DEEP", not "JEEK". Don't forget riding the tailboard stuff, (oh...you already said that) manual Fuller T-905M transmissions, manual steering, 2 stroke Detroit Diesels, no cab heaters or a/c, no enclosed cabs,, no drink holders, fire unions, no entitlement attitudes, exercise periods, labour relation boards, huge retirements, a total lack of safety equipment and of course affirmative action. Oh...do not forget the lawyers. One stood on his own legs back then. It is amazing we were not all killed instantly. I love this forum if you will have me. HB of CJ (old coot)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HBofCJ View Post
    Back in about 1972, we reversed dropped from the fire to the plug. Had too; low pressure, but high volume city water supply. Many advantages. We always had at least one Truck on scene, sometimes many. The address belonged to the Trucks. The Engines had to make do. We could drop two hand lines at once and let gravity help up. Many plugs.
    Many departments still reverse lay. FDNY and Memphis come to mind.

    Reverse laying also kept the entire Engine crew together. No dilution catching a plug going in. It also gave the officer the choice of pulling preconnects or going for a plug. The truckies ran the show. I guess all the water was just an after thought. But, tax dollars flowed back then and we were a very comfy ISO Class One. Lots of bodies. Not now.
    It just depends on local protocol, staffing, station placement, and another of other factors. In my department, the first engine forward lays and the second engine pumps to them. Works for us..

    What little feedback I receive now, since I'm out of it, is that the new FEDERAL laws, rules and regulation are designed to eliminate the backbone of the American Fire Service? The Volunteers, God bless them. Seems every year new roadblocks are presented to slow down new young people from volunteering? Too many rules and regulations? Maybe.
    What laws are you referring you? Aside from NFPA regulations, there are little-to-no federal laws that impact the American fire service. State and local laws, yes, but not federally. Heck, there are even differences in career (NFPA 1710) and volunteer (NFPA 1720) staffing recommendations.

    Again, I am very old school West Coast Fire Service. Big qualifier. The things we did routinely back then would get you fired instantly today. Again, my feeble question is....Are we better off today than we were say...40 years ago? I have lived the old stuff. Now beginning to see the new stuff. I keep asking myself what has happened?
    Are we better off? I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder. Whether we like it or not (or even embrace it), we're learning much more about the trade and its dangers. Many say that it's the pussification of the fire service, but I see it far differently - I love this job so much, I'll do whatever is necessary to ensure that I stay safe and get to enjoy my retirement for many years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    It seems to me that, generally speaking, the larger hoses operate under the lower pressures and the smaller hoses operate under the higher pressures. Why so much concern over large diameter discharge? If it was a compromise, it wasn't a great one IMO.
    It's actually the volume of water that is the danger and not the pressure.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    It's actually the volume of water that is the danger and not the pressure.
    I would think that a smaller volume of water at high pressure could be just as dangerous (probably more dangerous) as a large volume at lower pressure. I could easily put my head under a hydrant discharge but would hesitate to put it in front of an operating 2 1/2.

    Isn't the higher pressure what would be more likely to cause a failure of some kind? W/O the failure it doesn't much matter which is worse.

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    I agree, the higher pressure would more likely cause a failure, but there is simple physics involved. Once the line blows...the pressure has been released and the pressure is on the engine side. The hose is now without pressure so its not going to do too much. The volume of water in that hose is constant and will need to release somewhere.

    If you look into the science of why hose testing companies use small pumps with low volume of water to test...it can be really interesting and quite surprising.

    PS - they, above, were talking about injury from a hose bursting off and hitting someone. That was what I was addressing, the hose. Yes, the pump it self would do more damage with the higher pressure discharging.
    Last edited by Bones42; 03-24-2014 at 11:54 AM.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I would think that a smaller volume of water at high pressure could be just as dangerous (probably more dangerous) as a large volume at lower pressure. I could easily put my head under a hydrant discharge but would hesitate to put it in front of an operating 2 1/2.
    I'll bet if the flowing pressures were the same you would have second thoughts.

    Isn't the higher pressure what would be more likely to cause a failure of some kind? W/O the failure it doesn't much matter which is worse.
    The concern would be in potential energy. A small diameter hose moves less volume, i.e. pounds, of water. A hose flowing 1000 GPM is moving about 8000 pounds of water per minute as opposed to a 200 GPM flow of about 1600 pounds per minute. The amount of energy released in a short period of time is much greater with higher flows in the case of a catastrophic failure. There is simply a lot less energy released when a small hose fails as opposed to a large diameter hose, until you get into higher than normal firefighting pressures such as the old John Bean Ultra-High Pressure Fog which operated around 750 to 850 PSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    I'll bet if the flowing pressures were the same you would have second thoughts.



    The concern would be in potential energy. A small diameter hose moves less volume, i.e. pounds, of water. A hose flowing 1000 GPM is moving about 8000 pounds of water per minute as opposed to a 200 GPM flow of about 1600 pounds per minute. The amount of energy released in a short period of time is much greater with higher flows in the case of a catastrophic failure. There is simply a lot less energy released when a small hose fails as opposed to a large diameter hose, until you get into higher than normal firefighting pressures such as the old John Bean Ultra-High Pressure Fog which operated around 750 to 850 PSI.
    But the pressures are NOT the same. Not in the example I gave.

    Smaller diameter hose at higher pressures can deliver the same volume (measured in GPM) as larger diameter hose at lower pressures. Potential energy won't hurt you. Kinetic energy will. A smaller volume of water at high speed could easily hurt you worse than a larger amount of water at low speed.
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    Actually it is the velocity of the water, which is a function of the volume and pressure. Basic Rocket Science. Which...if run through the math to the illogical solution or current condition, there would not be an American Fire Service Today because even walking into a house and just looking at an Engine, (not "truck") would kill you instantly with evil intent.

    Who is the NFPA? It is amazing that today so many really intelligent individuals take as a matter of faith that national organisations are by their nature the very best they can be and have the best interests of the Public close to their hearts. Again...who is the NFPA? Please do not tell me it is some fire people, manufactures and UNIONS! HB of CJ (old coot)

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    Actually it is the velocity of the water, which is a function of the volume and pressure. Basic Rocket Science. Which...if run through the math to the illogical solution or current condition, there would not be an American Fire Service Today because even walking into a house and just looking at an Engine, (not "truck") would kill you instantly with evil intent.

    Who is the NFPA? It is amazing that today so many really intelligent individuals take as a matter of faith that national organisations are by their nature the very best they can be and have the best interests of the Public close to their hearts. Again...who is the NFPA? Please do not tell me it is some fire people, manufactures and UNIONS! HB of CJ (old coot)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HBofCJ View Post
    Again...who is the NFPA? Please do not tell me it is some fire people, manufactures and UNIONS!
    Nope, no union representation...the committee is made up of reps from the following organizations:
    • Los Angeles Fire Department
    • National Wildfire Coordinating Group
    • Charlotte Fire Department
    • Myrtle Beach Fire Department
    • CAL-FIRE
    • W.S. Darley & Company
    • Insurance Services Office
    • Akron Brass
    • US Department of Agriculture
    • Underwriter's Laboratories
    • Juneau, Boll, Stacy, & Ucherek, PLLC
    • Mistras Group
    • Oshkosh
    • Glatfelter Claims Management
    • US General Services Administration
    • Hartley Volunteer Fire Company
    • Waterous Company
    • WC Peters Fire Apparatus Consulting Services
    • Stockton Fire Department
    • Mike Pietsch, PE Consulting Services
    • John H. Enders Fire Company & Rescue Squad
    • District of Columbia Fire Department
    • Mayfield Village Fire Department
    • Goshen Fire Company
    • E-One
    • Sutphen
    • KME
    • Hale Products
    • Certified Fleet Services
    • Tinley Park Village Fire Department
    • Michigan Department of Natural Resources
    • Waterous
    • Volunteer Fireman's Insurance Services
    • Pierce Manufacturing
    • Fort Worth Fire Department
    • Rosenbauer America
    • Oregon Apparatus Repair, Inc
    • Fairfax County Fire & Rescue Department

    Hope this helps...
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    Quote Originally Posted by HBofCJ View Post
    Actually it is the velocity of the water, which is a function of the volume and pressure. Basic Rocket Science. Which...if run through the math to the illogical solution or current condition, there would not be an American Fire Service Today because even walking into a house and just looking at an Engine, (not "truck") would kill you instantly with evil intent.

    Who is the NFPA? It is amazing that today so many really intelligent individuals take as a matter of faith that national organisations are by their nature the very best they can be and have the best interests of the Public close to their hearts. Again...who is the NFPA? Please do not tell me it is some fire people, manufactures and UNIONS! HB of CJ (old coot)
    Actually NFPA, or at least part of their standards, including 1901 on fire apparatus, are law in Wisconsin as they were adopted by SPS 330 in the Administrative Code. So while they may mean nothing where you are, your situation doesn't hold true everywhere.
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    Thank you for your lengthy and thoughtful reply. It took you some time and effort to do so and it is appreciated. This could be a subject close to your heart or one you have distinction with .....or have a vested interest towards? Respectfully, no Labour Representation? Are you OK with your answer? Are your sure? I will let that go for the time being.... however ..... it might be enlightening for us to understand just who the NPFA may be and what MAY be their intent.....and agenda?

    Again, my point of view here is one who was on the inside over 40 years ago, did my time and now am looking back through that door long vacated with the eyes of a very old school individual. The NFPA is made up of certain selected fire officials, many fire apparatus manufactures and perhaps Union Representation. Kinda like the Fox guarding the hen house? Or the lunatics running Bedlam? Perhaps my comparisons are overly harsh and if so, my apologies. HB of CJ (old coot)

    Question at large because I do not know. Are there any other organisations who do what the NFPA does? Besides the August benevolent ISO that is. We do not want to open that Insurance Industry Fire Service can of worms. Different aspect for sure. Are there any other better or newer ways of "Doing Business"? Thank you for your time.
    Last edited by HBofCJ; 04-16-2014 at 01:01 AM. Reason: cut stuff out

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    Does it really matter if there is Labor Union representation on the Committee for NFPA 1901 (The Standard for Automotive Fire Apparatus.) Do you think that having union representation will weed out any potential stupidity, muckracking, lobbying or other tomfoolery among the membership of the committee? I suppose so......After all, the labor union movement invented all of the above and would easily be able to spot it occurring and would immediately put an end to it.......
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HBofCJ View Post
    Thank you for your lengthy and thoughtful reply. It took you some time and effort to do so and it is appreciated. This could be a subject close to your heart or one you have distinction with .....or have a vested interest towards?
    While I think that serving on the 1901 committee would be one of the highest compliments that I could ever receive, I don't know that I ever will, nor do I currently.

    Respectfully, no Labour Representation? Are you OK with your answer? Are your sure? I will let that go for the time being.... however ..... it might be enlightening for us to understand just who the NPFA may be and what MAY be their intent.....and agenda?
    I stand by my answer: there is no direct labor management representation on the 1901 committee. Some of the individuals may work for agencies who have strong union presense, but there isn't a IAFF or other union representative on the committee.

    Again, my point of view here is one who was on the inside over 40 years ago, did my time and now am looking back through that door long vacated with the eyes of a very old school individual. The NFPA is made up of certain selected fire officials, many fire apparatus manufactures and perhaps Union Representation. Kinda like the Fox guarding the hen house? Or the lunatics running Bedlam? Perhaps my comparisons are overly harsh and if so, my apologies. HB of CJ (old coot)
    I'm not sure if you understand this, and if you do, my apologies. The NPFA has many, many technical committees that handle everything from safety to rehab to fire extinguishers to building codes to fire apparatus design to technical rescue standards (and hundreds of other items as well). The goal of these committees is to provide a recognized industry standard for items that have a direct impact on the public for fire-safety related matters, as well as to firefighters providing life safety standards, and also the manufacturers that are building the equipment that we use to provide our services.

    Question at large because I do not know. Are there any other organisations who do what the NFPA does? Besides the August benevolent ISO that is. We do not want to open that Insurance Industry Fire Service can of worms. Different aspect for sure. Are there any other better or newer ways of "Doing Business"? Thank you for your time.
    Are you talking about the NFPA in general or just on fire apparatus? On fire apparatus, FAMA and FDSOA come to mind. In other standards (NFPA 1, NFPA 70, NFPA 101), BOCA and the NEC come to mind. I'm sure others can provide their thoughts as well on that.

    I think we can all infer that you feel that the NPFA 1901 technical committee has either outlived it effectiveness or has ulterior motives. What would you change/fix about the committee?
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 04-16-2014 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Fix grammar, clarifications
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    "I stand by my answer: there is no direct labor management representation on the 1901 committee. Some of the individuals may work for agencies who have strong union presense, but there isn't a IAFF or other union representative on the committee."

    Look...some guys are just haters or ideologues who are gonna believe what they want to believe no matter the facts may be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Does it really matter if there is Labor Union representation on the Committee for NFPA 1901 (The Standard for Automotive Fire Apparatus.) Do you think that having union representation will weed out any potential stupidity, muckracking, lobbying or other tomfoolery among the membership of the committee? I suppose so......After all, the labor union movement invented all of the above and would easily be able to spot it occurring and would immediately put an end to it.......
    They also invented worker safety, decent wages, and the 40 hr. week, among many other things you enjoy in your occupation, no matter what it is. Do you have any valid point other than just hating??

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Does it really matter if there is Labor Union representation on the Committee for NFPA 1901 (The Standard for Automotive Fire Apparatus.) Do you think that having union representation will weed out any potential stupidity, muckracking, lobbying or other tomfoolery among the membership of the committee? I suppose so......After all, the labor union movement invented all of the above and would easily be able to spot it occurring and would immediately put an end to it.......
    You know Randy, the bold type in your post above is absolute Bovine recyclable waste material and you know it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    They also invented worker safety, decent wages, and the 40 hr. week, among many other things you enjoy in your occupation, no matter what it is. Do you have any valid point other than just hating??
    Who said anything about hating? I'm telling the God's honest truth, and you damn well KNOW that I am!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Careful!!! You might get labeled a hater by johnsb for posting something like this!!!!
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