Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 48
Like Tree10Likes

Thread: LDH intake on the drivers side? NFPA standard?

  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    3

    Default LDH intake on the drivers side? NFPA standard?

    Hello brothers,


    We are just finishing up specing out a new engine tanker with a low hose bed. We hired a private firm to do some of the legal work as well as the actual spec writing. One of the spec writers is stating that it is now a NFPA requirement that you can't have a LDH intake on the drivers/ pump operators panel. He is saying nothing larger than a 2 1/2 can be taken in on the drivers pump panel. I see his point on the possibility of injury of the line breaks but I cant find anything in writing on it. Due to him saying that we piped a LDH intake/suction to the rear of the truck. Our guys want the side LDH intake but would like the truck to meet NFPA requirements. Has anybody had to deal with this recently?

    Thanks for the help


  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EGFD87 View Post
    Hello brothers,


    We are just finishing up specing out a new engine tanker with a low hose bed. We hired a private firm to do some of the legal work as well as the actual spec writing. One of the spec writers is stating that it is now a NFPA requirement that you can't have a LDH intake on the drivers/ pump operators panel. He is saying nothing larger than a 2 1/2 can be taken in on the drivers pump panel. I see his point on the possibility of injury of the line breaks but I cant find anything in writing on it. Due to him saying that we piped a LDH intake/suction to the rear of the truck. Our guys want the side LDH intake but would like the truck to meet NFPA requirements. Has anybody had to deal with this recently?

    Thanks for the help
    did said spec writer give you a NFPA and edition he got this from?

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,753

    Default

    16.6 Pump Intake Connections.

    16.6.1* The pump shall have a sufficient number and size of intakes to perform the apparatus pump system certification test.


    16.6.1.1 The intakes specified in 16.6.1 shall have male National Hose threads if the apparatus is to be used in the United States.



    16.6.1.2 If the couplings on the suction hose carried on the apparatus are of a different size from that of the pump intake(s) or have means of hose attachment other than that provided on the intake(s), an adapter(s) shall be provided to allow connection of the suction hose to the pump intake(s).



    16.6.1.3* A sign shall be provided on the pump operator's panel that states the following:
    WARNING: Death or serious injury might occur if proper operating procedures are not followed. The pump operator as well as individuals connecting supply or discharge hoses to the apparatus must be familiar with water hydraulics hazards and component limitations.







    For aerial ladders::


    A.19.6.6

    A.19.6.6 The arrangement of the external inlet should be specified by the purchaser based on the intended local operation in supplying water to the waterway.
    If the normal operations are to supply the waterway through the external inlet, a valve should be provided where large diameter hose is to be used. A valved three- or four-inlet siamese should be provided when 21/2 in. or 3 in. (65 mm or 75 mm) supply lines are used. Attention should be given to the inlet arrangement to limit friction loss. Also, if the apparatus is equipped with a fire pump and the purchaser wants to use the auxiliary inlet as a discharge, a slow-operating valve needs to be installed in the riser to the swivel.

  4. #4
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,249

    Default

    There is no restriction in the current edition of NFPA 1901 restricting LDH intakes anywhere on the vehicle. If the spec writer insists that there is, force them to show you proof. Then show it to us. ;-)
    CaptOldTimer likes this.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,753

    Default

    Might want to hire another high price spec writer to check these specs, if the ldh question shows it can be anywhere

  6. #6
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,655

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Might want to hire another high price spec writer...
    Good advice right there.

    Then again...we've never used a spec writer.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,354

    Default

    If I remember correctly the current edition of 1901 does not allow an LDH DISCHARGE on the driver's side.........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,753

    Default

    Section????


    Maybe 2016 edition???

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Udall, Kansas
    Posts
    434

    Default

    One our truck that has the rear ldh suction, that's the only one we use. Works nice when drafting to keep the dump tanks out of the way and nice to have supply line away from the pump panel.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    If I remember correctly the current edition of 1901 does not allow an LDH DISCHARGE on the driver's side.........
    FWDBuff is correct. Nothing larger than a 2.5" on the pump operator's panel.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo Kilo View Post
    FWDBuff is correct. Nothing larger than a 2.5" on the pump operator's panel.
    Correct for DISCHARGE:::


    16.7.9* Location of Discharge Outlets.

    16.7.9.1 No discharge outlet larger than 21/2 in. (65 mm) shall be located at the pump operator's panel.



    16.7.9.2 If the apparatus has a top consoleĖtype pump operator's panel, vertical discharge outlets larger than 21/2 in. (65 mm) shall be permitted at the top midship position of apparatus where the outlets are used for directly connected deck guns or monitors and no fire hose is used for coupling the components.




    16.7.10 Where the valve-operating mechanism does not indicate the position of the valve, an indicator shall be provided to show when the valve is closed.





    OP was asking about intake.
    Last edited by fire49; 03-19-2014 at 08:25 AM.

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Swanton Fire Dept. Swanton, Vermont
    Posts
    475

    Default

    As has been well documented above, LDH Discharge is different than intake. Any master intake even at draft is technically a Large Diameter Hose intake, so the person doing the Spec has to explain what they mean.

    I will agree, that the intake that you are expecting to receive water from a pressurized source is better away from the operator's panel. We set our last two engines up with Electric MIV on the Officer's side and had the LDH connections there. That way you have all LDH in one spot and not next to your operator. The Electric controlled valve keeps it controlled by the operator but does not have to physically go to the other side of the truck.

    It comes down to Risk vs. Reward vs. Cost as so many things do on spec's....

  13. #13
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,655

    Default

    Old school baby....

    LDH supply into the pump panel by the operator so he can lean on it and tell how much more water is available. It's hard, you got more. It's soft, you are getting close to it's capacity.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    568

    Default

    I hope your department did not spend a whole lotta money on these "experts."

    Ask them to cite the exact part of 1901 they are using for this nonsense. Every paragraph is numbered for precisely this purpose. If they were unable to get this simple part correct, what else did they misinterpret or misrepresent?

    If they cannot provide proof of their claim it would also be nice if you actually named names so other departments would know who to avoid wasting money with.

    To be sure, the NFPA safety committee would prefer that absolutely no discharges be near the operator and have leaned that way since the '90s. However, I can't remember any meetings that I attended where inlets were given the same treatment.

    As an aside, once the safety committee was on a jag and wanted backflow preventers installed on inlets to prevent any contamination of a municipal water supply. This was brought up at a FAMA techinical committee meeting and Ken Lenz of HME pointed out that fire apparatus were not wide enough to accommodate the device that would be required to do this on a 6" inlet on flows of 1500 GPM. It got scrapped when reality hit.

    As for stepping on the hose to tell if you are close to out flowing a source, that is why they have gauges. Any good pump operator should know that if an inlet gauge is approaching zero when connected to a hydrant that trouble is approaching. The hose is only getting soft because the pressure is low and that will show on the gauge.
    CaptOldTimer and RFDACM02 like this.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pa Wilds
    Posts
    577

    Default

    EGFD87, I notice you mentioned a rear intake as a possibility. If you routinely or even occasionally run calls with narrow roads or long driveways, a rear intake (6") is a great advantage for keeping drop tanks and the engine on one lane. This allows a number of arrangements for rural supply with tanker (tender) operations. There are some cautions when using this arrangement. DO Not directly connect a large diameter Storz Cap to this connection, but instead use a gated siamese and threaded connections on the rear. Suppose that on a call or drill, you have attached a pressurized line (relay or hydrant) to the pump and the pump operator intentionally or accidentally cracks the rear suction internal valve. This will pressurize the rear suction compressing any trapped air. It the operator neglects to drain the rear or relieve the trapped pressure, the piping can remain under pressure for a long time. With a storz cap in place of say 5" diameter and a trapped air pressure of 70 psi, taking off the cap will propel it into the firefighter with over 1,000 lbs of force. A gated 2 1/2" x 6" siamese will allow you to connect two 3" hard sleeves and nurse directly from a tanker for things like chimneys, or brush where one tanker load of water is enough to handle the problem. If you add a second priming valve and line from the primer to the rear suction piping, it is then possible to start out of the engine tank, connect the hard sleeve(s), and then remove any air from the rear suction before opening the internal valve so there won't be any momentary loss in discharge pressure to the lines. By the way, I'm with Bones on bringing in the line next to the pump operator if possible. He and I both like to operate with one leg tight against the incoming line to monitor it. I can feel changes in pressure before most gauges show the change, especially in the age of automatic snubbers.

  16. #16
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kuh shise View Post
    EGFD87, I notice you mentioned a rear intake as a possibility. If you routinely or even occasionally run calls with narrow roads or long driveways, a rear intake (6") is a great advantage for keeping drop tanks and the engine on one lane. This allows a number of arrangements for rural supply with tanker (tender) operations. There are some cautions when using this arrangement. DO Not directly connect a large diameter Storz Cap to this connection, but instead use a gated siamese and threaded connections on the rear. Suppose that on a call or drill, you have attached a pressurized line (relay or hydrant) to the pump and the pump operator intentionally or accidentally cracks the rear suction internal valve. This will pressurize the rear suction compressing any trapped air. It the operator neglects to drain the rear or relieve the trapped pressure, the piping can remain under pressure for a long time. With a storz cap in place of say 5" diameter and a trapped air pressure of 70 psi, taking off the cap will propel it into the firefighter with over 1,000 lbs of force. OR, don't put a cap on it at all. That is how our rear intake is set up. The threaded intake has an intake relief valve attached to it. It is not gated. We draft from folding tanks off the rear and use 6 inch hard sleeve. We remove the relief valve for drafting ops. Because we are a mostly hydranted area we leave the relief valve in place and when we drop LDH we go right in the rear. A gated 2 1/2" x 6" siamese will allow you to connect two 3" hard sleeves and nurse directly from a tanker for things like chimneys, or brush where one tanker load of water is enough to handle the problem. OR you can take a 2 1/2 off from the pump on the tender and feed what ever rig you need to like the tender is a hydrant. If you add a second priming valve and line from the primer to the rear suction piping, it is then possible to start out of the engine tank, connect the hard sleeve(s), and then remove any air from the rear suction. Maybe it is just me but I wouldn't spec a rear intake without a seperate priming device. By the way, I'm with Bones on bringing in the line next to the pump operator if possible. He and I both like to operate with one leg tight against the incoming line to monitor it. I can feel changes in pressure before most gauges show the change, especially in the age of automatic snubbers. We run LDH into the driver's side or rear, and leave the operators side strictly for drafting.
    Different strokes I guess.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-20-2014 at 03:35 PM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Thanks for all the help, the rear intake has been removed and we will be using the drivers side pump panel for our intake. We run in a mostly hydrated district and only usually draft when we run mutual aid. When we do operate in areas that require a tanker shuttle we use a nurse tanker at the end of the driveway that all the trucks feed into and they also operate a portable pond.

    As for the truck we have speced out a Spartan ERV with a 1,000 gallon tank, 1250 pump and seating for 8. This is our first Spartan and our first truck without crosslays and with a low hose bed. Hope to get some pictures up as the truck progresses down the line.

    Thanks again for the help, it saved us money as well as lowered the hose bed even more. As everybody know the money saved will be used down the line on something else.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EGFD87 View Post
    This is our first Spartan and our first truck without crosslays...
    Just curious. Since Spartan is building it, it most likely is compliant with 1901. Where are your two preconnects located and what is the hose load you chose? I have often thought crosslays add length to apparatus that might not be necessary to meet standards.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    SW Oregon
    Posts
    46

    Default

    Another very old school point of view and comments. I am wondering why your fire district insists on buying $NEW$ and not excellent condition certified USED? Somebody has to pay for it and we tax payers are all in this together.

    I you are buying new and specifying the engine yourselves, (you are very lucky here) why are you painting yourselves into a tactical corner? Why not go with a heavier 3 axle chassis and a true tanker engine design with a 2500 gal tank?

    Has there been any documentation on Engineers being injured or killed by a bursting large diameter discharge hose located by the pump panel? And if not, just why is there a silly regulation prohibiting large diameter discharge gates?

    Before the dawn of time, or 40 years ago, we had a 6" NS threaded intake on both sides of the pump. They normally ran capped. The newer stuff also had a gated 6" NS soft front suction. Our outfit reversed layed back then. Much better.

  20. #20
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,354

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HBofCJ View Post
    And if not, just why is there a silly regulation prohibiting large diameter discharge gates?
    Oh I don't know, you'd have to ask those fine people in Quincy, Ma. that create the standards that every attorney in the known world will cite in the event of an accident and ensuing court litigation. You may have heard of them before- the National Fire Protection Association, also known as the NFPA. The standard for automotive fire apparatus by the way is NFPA1901. And by the way it does not say you cannot have an LDH discharge, you just cannot have it on the operator's side of the pump panel. I don't know about you but I'm kind of allergic to the kinetic energy of the mass of water that comes out of the end of a burst length of 5" hose, especially if it has a few psi's of push on it.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. LDH intake on the drivers side? NFPA standard?
    By EGFD87 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-18-2014, 02:09 PM
  2. Replies: 23
    Last Post: 05-10-2008, 05:06 PM
  3. Standard Side-mount pump or Command side mount
    By EngCo29 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-17-2005, 10:39 AM
  4. Front vs. Side Intake
    By TowerPower in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 01-01-2002, 01:24 PM
  5. Intake valve- Which side ?
    By Smokeetr4 in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 10-26-2001, 02:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts