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Thread: Brush Truck Bumper Sprayers

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    Default Brush Truck Bumper Sprayers

    Hey guys,

    My department has a F350 with a 300g skid unit in the back out it. We were recently talking about that idea of putting a set of sprayers near the front bumper that we can run from the skid unit if we needed it. I was just wondering if any of you have used these, or if anyone else has built there own.

    Thanks


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireresq1419 View Post
    Hey guys,

    My department has a F350 with a 300g skid unit in the back out it. We were recently talking about that idea of putting a set of sprayers near the front bumper that we can run from the skid unit if we needed it. I was just wondering if any of you have used these, or if anyone else has built there own.

    Thanks
    300 gallons on an F350.

    Do you realize that the GVWR rating for the chassis is highway use?

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    @Fireresq1419
    I would think you are referring to Crew/Vehicle Protection Sprays. I have found them to be of good benefit during wildfire firefighting operations, ensuring they're positioned correctly, sprays provide adequate protection to tires and parts of the vehicle they are covering. The sprays at the front of the vehicle are efficient at mitigating the threat of hot spots or small fire causing tire damage. These sprays, though there are many types out on the market, are generally unsuitable for any real form of fire suppression. Some of the questions/issues you will need to answer are:
    -Objective (Protect just tires, or whole vehicle etc)
    -Cost
    -Relevance (Does your FD employ your vehicle in situations that would warrant protection sprays? etc)
    -Type of spray system you would require.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JVCDFB View Post
    @Fireresq1419
    I would think you are referring to Crew/Vehicle Protection Sprays. I have found them to be of good benefit during wildfire firefighting operations, ensuring they're positioned correctly, sprays provide adequate protection to tires and parts of the vehicle they are covering. The sprays at the front of the vehicle are efficient at mitigating the threat of hot spots or small fire causing tire damage. These sprays, though there are many types out on the market, are generally unsuitable for any real form of fire suppression. Some of the questions/issues you will need to answer are:
    -Objective (Protect just tires, or whole vehicle etc)
    -Cost
    -Relevance (Does your FD employ your vehicle in situations that would warrant protection sprays? etc)
    -Type of spray system you would require.
    Were mainly looking to put something up there for when we enter fields when fighting field fires. We mainly have fields that are burning dry grass and what not. Like you said, we are just wanting something out in front that we ca turn on to protect the tires when driving in the fields, also it would be nice to have them going when we are mopping up hot spots in the fields. We are looking to keep it simple and cheap if possible.

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    fairly common -- they make a brass irrigation nozzle than can be set from (don't quote me on this)3 to 6 gpm. they can be tapped into a pipe bumper -- be sure to tap (thread) them into your pipe bumper because you will eventually have to remove them to clean out rust from the inside of the pipe bumper.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    300 gallons on an F350.

    Do you realize that the GVWR rating for the chassis is highway use?
    Do you realize that's only around 2400 lbs? As long as the truck is only a brush rig (and a dually) and doesn't have a ton of unneeded crap on it, there's nothing wrong with 300 gallons of water on it.

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    I won't try to talk you out of the sprayer nozzles but I am not a big fan of them. I think they waste water on a rig with an already small tank. Drive in the black and use a booster line or a garden hose from the passenger seat to hit those hot spots in you don't want to get out and walk the fire line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I won't try to talk you out of the sprayer nozzles but I am not a big fan of them. I think they waste water on a rig with an already small tank. Drive in the black and use a booster line or a garden hose from the passenger seat to hit those hot spots in you don't want to get out and walk the fire line.
    That's basically what we do now. We just use our reel line and pull it to the passenger side. We are also going to be getting a whipline that we can run off a discharge to the rear driver side door to have a line on both sides. We would like the ground sprayers to protect the tires and allow us to put a final soak on the fire once it is knocked down with the lines.

    Thanks for the suggestions guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireresq1419 View Post
    That's basically what we do now. We just use our reel line and pull it to the passenger side. We are also going to be getting a whipline that we can run off a discharge to the rear driver side door to have a line on both sides. We would like the ground sprayers to protect the tires and allow us to put a final soak on the fire once it is knocked down with the lines.

    Thanks for the suggestions guys.
    If you drive in the black, and aren't running over stumps and downed tree branches, what are you protecting the tires from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If you drive in the black, and aren't running over stumps and downed tree branches, what are you protecting the tires from?
    Some hot spots. For example the other day we had a brush fire in a grass field that was very thick, we drove in the black to knock the fire down, but the grass was so thick that the top was only burning and when we put it out, it would still burn underneath in some spots and when we would drive over it, it would sometimes flare back up.

    Its nothing major, we were just throwing the idea around the other day and figured we would look into how hard or how much it would cost to do. It seems like we were thinking that they are more useful than they actually are maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireresq1419 View Post
    Some hot spots. For example the other day we had a brush fire in a grass field that was very thick, we drove in the black to knock the fire down, but the grass was so thick that the top was only burning and when we put it out, it would still burn underneath in some spots and when we would drive over it, it would sometimes flare back up.

    Its nothing major, we were just throwing the idea around the other day and figured we would look into how hard or how much it would cost to do. It seems like we were thinking that they are more useful than they actually are maybe.
    Start using Class A foam in your hoselines and a lot of those problems will be eliminated. The truth though is sometimes you have to get off the rig and do some grunt work with rakes and shovels to get to those kinds of fires.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-21-2014 at 10:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfelix22000us View Post
    Do you realize that's only around 2400 lbs? As long as the truck is only a brush rig (and a dually) and doesn't have a ton of unneeded crap on it, there's nothing wrong with 300 gallons of water on it.
    Okay. At first I ignored this but, today I read an article in Firehouse magazine about how all of the studies on firefighter safety have no effect because departments ignore the results. So, here goes.

    "Nothing wrong with 300 gallons of water on it." Such a cavalier and smug attitude when your life or the life of your comrades is at stake is galling.

    Before I get into the details what, exactly, does the truck having dual rear tires have to do with the subject. GVWR is GVWR regardless of what rubber is on the rear. The dual rear tires only increase tire contact with the ground (especially when they are sunk in mud) so you can use smaller rated tires to achieve a higher rating. They also result in a wider vehicle which adds somewhat to side-to-side stability but that is not applicable to this discussion.

    If water weighed 8 pounds a gallon you might be correct but, it weighs slightly more, on average 8.3 or 8.4 pounds per gallon depending the on the temperature. Sure, that is nitpicking on such a small quantity.

    I do suppose you are planning on keeping that water in some kind of container like, say, a tank. The general rule of thumb used by builders to do a quick estimate is 10 pounds per gallon to include the weight of the tank. Thus 300 gallons with a tank would weigh approximately 3000 pounds. Kinda sounds like a ton and a half which is supposedly the payload of an F350.

    Now you have to add a pump and associated plumbing. You could be using a tiny little thing weighing in at 20 or so pounds but most of our customers ask for a 20 HP unit which will clock in at around 150 to 200 pounds.

    Now, add two firefighters at 200 pounds each and we have an additional 400 pounds.

    You may want to carry some hose so you can actually apply the water but, lets forget about that for now. The apparatus is already 600 pounds (1/4 ton) over weight.

    The reason I posted about highway vs. off road use is that the people who make the chassis recommend derating the payload by at least 20 percent when used off road. That would make the "ton and a half" payload 2400 pounds. Now you are 1200 pounds above the manufacturer's rated capacity for the application and don't have hose, nozzles, booster reel, hand tools, suction hose, etc..

    But, what do I know? I am not a firefighter anymore. All I do is work for a company that pays me to make these kinds of calculations. When I do it at work I start with the chassis curb weight and use exact figures for the equipment that is added on as well as its location on the vehicle so I can also calculate the center of gravity as well as weight distribution from axle to axle.

    Oh, don't take my word for it. I am not at work so I don't have all of the documentation and cites available but I can send you to a neutral party that I found in a yahoo search relatively easily:

    http://www.rosscommonequipmentcenter.com

    They might know something about brush trucks since they are a research facility for the Michigan Forestry Service. Click the tab marked "design" and you will find a basic recap of the above and a lot of rule of thumb calculations.

    I really don't think you should be giving advice on the subject. God forbid someone should get hurt due to such advice but if they did you wouldn't have to worry about the grieving widow calling a lawyer, the lawyers will call her with all kinds of enticements. Muddled thinking like yours only contributes to the problem of firefighter injuries and I am finished with letting it slide.

    I thought long and hard about making this post today knowing it would make me sound like some kind of ash hole but simply don't care anymore. Manufacturers have been forced to do stupid stuff for ages to make up for the resistance to logic by the customer. Take fastening seat belts for instance. Now we have to upcharge for bright colored seat belts, install indicators, buzzers and whatever simply because the end users refuse to buckle up. It results in a huge amount of wasted paperwork and manpower which in turn results in increased apparatus pricing all of which could have been prevented if departments simply buckled up when the first study pointed out the lives that could have been saved. Millions of dollars wasted yearly because people are too bull headed to do the right thing and that is just one item.

    As long as you and guys like you continue to ignore logic, proper engineering, manufacturer's recommendations, and safety, firefighter fatalities will never go down on a per response basis.
    Last edited by firepundit; 03-21-2014 at 07:56 PM. Reason: Fixed a redunancy in a sentence and a spelling error.

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    firepundit,

    Excellent post. Too often brush rigs and "mini" pumpers are so overloaded, undersuspentioned, and underbraked, that merely driving them on the road creates a hazard, let alone taking them off the road and subjecting them to that abuse.

    To me so many of these vehicles are the prime example of the 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    firepundit,

    Excellent post. Too often brush rigs and "mini" pumpers are so overloaded, undersuspentioned, and underbraked, that merely driving them on the road creates a hazard, let alone taking them off the road and subjecting them to that abuse.

    To me so many of these vehicles are the prime example of the 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag.
    Wow! I just complimented you in a different thread. This is getting scary. Do you think maybe we can start to discuss issues without resorting to hyperbole and venom? I certainly hope so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    firepundit,

    .....Too often brush rigs and "mini" pumpers are so overloaded.... underbraked, that merely driving them on the road creates a hazard...
    Sorry about editing your post but I particularly wanted to point out that basic overlooked fact. We often complain about apparatus that doesn't get up and go but seldom mention the ones that don't like to stop. Brakes are designed to stop a vehicle within their designed weight limits and conditions, i.e. highway use. I neglected to bring that up in my rebuttal however, a chassis designed and rated for highway use that is over loaded and on a downward slope does not tend to stop very well. Being able to stop is just as important as getting going. Especially in the wild.

    Thanks for bringing it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Sorry about editing your post but I particularly wanted to point out that basic overlooked fact. We often complain about apparatus that doesn't get up and go but seldom mention the ones that don't like to stop. Brakes are designed to stop a vehicle within their designed weight limits and conditions, i.e. highway use. I neglected to bring that up in my rebuttal however, a chassis designed and rated for highway use that is over loaded and on a downward slope does not tend to stop very well. Being able to stop is just as important as getting going. Especially in the wild.

    Thanks for bringing it up.
    I have been the scared sh itless driver on a few occasions of woefully underbraked vehicles. It is as near and dear to me s underpowered vehicles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Wow! I just complimented you in a different thread. This is getting scary. Do you think maybe we can start to discuss issues without resorting to hyperbole and venom? I certainly hope so.
    Well, maybe we can. Weirder things have happened.

    Hell, I met LA, had a pleasant meal and conversation and I believed that some here were fearful of what might occur during that meeting!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, maybe we can. Weirder things have happened.

    Hell, I met LA, had a pleasant meal and conversation and I believed that some here were fearful of what might occur during that meeting!!
    Funny how the brotherhood works. But not surprising because we all have similar goals. It is easy to get lost in the faceless internet. You can't imagine my surprise when I recognized your face when you posted the picture you and LA together. I was giving a presentation to a group you were in. You weren't near as confrontational as you are on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Funny how the brotherhood works. But not surprising because we all have similar goals. It is easy to get lost in the faceless internet. You can't imagine my surprise when I recognized your face when you posted the picture you and LA together. I was giving a presentation to a group you were in. You weren't near as confrontational as you are on this forum.
    We've met? When and where? Now my curiousity is piqued.
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    Firepundit, dually does make a difference. Single rear pickup F350's last I knew, are rated at 9900 lbs. 300 gallons on that chassis would be grossly overloaded. Dually F350's are rated around 13,000 (maybe 13,500, I can't remember). With a tare weight of 9000 lbs (which should be high for a gas engine) that gives you at least 4000 lbs to work with. Yes, when you figure in the 20% reduction for offroad you'll be overweight for that purpose more than likely.

    Like everything else, it really comes down to training and knowing your equipment. I drive dually dump bodies and pull trailers nearly every day. I would be comfortable in the truck we are discussing. Someone else that only drives a car or a small SUV probably shouldn't get behind the wheel on a response until they've had practice driving it under training conditions.

    I fully agree on the stopping issue!

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