1. #1
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    Default Re-plating a pump

    Our department is purchasing a new prebuilt tanker and we would like to stay below 750 gpm so its not classified as a pumper/tanker. One of the manufacture's trucks has a 750 gpm pump on it and they stated that they will have it re-plated to 500 gpm because they are the same pumps. My question is is this legit and if so why would I pay for a 750 gpm pump when I can buy a 500 and it push the same amount of water?

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    They are simply de rating the pump capacity of the pump. It will still flow 750 gpm if needed but by dropping the rating it will keep you from having something classified as a pumper/tanker, which you requested.

    You are not paying for more pump. In most instances the pump manufactures use the same pump for several gallonage ratings. For example, a Hale 1,250 gpm Q-Max pump is the same pump as the 2,250 gpm Q-Max pump. The pumps are absolutely identical. The only difference is the amount of horsepower in front of the pump and probably the gear ratio in the gear box.

    That is the reason our department specifies Hale 1,500 gpm Q-Max pumps with a Allison EVS 4000 transmission (to deliver the horsepower) and a larger engine than needed (making the horsepower) to meet the pump capacity of 1,500 gpm. If we need to flow big water we already have the capabilities and as the engine gets weaker or the pump gets worn over the service life of the apparatus we will still be able to pass pump test 20-30 years down the road.

    They are not trying to pull a fast one on you. They are simply changing the pump rating plate to 500 gpm instead of 750 to give you what you want. As long as they aren't increasing the price tell them thank you and put the truck in service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post
    The pumps are absolutely identical. The only difference is the amount of horsepower in front of the pump and probably the gear ratio in the gear box.
    Also the number of discharges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Also the number of discharges.
    And the size of the impeller in some cases.
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    NFPA rates a pump by the number and size of discharges, but you can always have more discharges. For instance a pump with 2x 2.5" discharges can be rated at 500GPM. If you added a 3rd 2.5" then you could rate it at 750GPM, but you don't have to. Remember, pump capacities are a minimum, not a maximum.

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    Can I ask....why does/would it matter if you are rated as a tanker vs pumper/tanker?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Can I ask....why does/would it matter if you are rated as a tanker vs pumper/tanker?
    I'd ask the same question. Why not spend a few dollars to have much more versatility. I honestly can't see any use in only having a 500, or even a 750 gpm pump in anything that isn't a brush truck.

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    Gang, I'd suspect their vehicle has been funded through an AFG grant, which specifies that your pump and tank size must be in line with their definition of whatever type of rig they have funded you for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Gang, I'd suspect their vehicle has been funded through an AFG grant, which specifies that your pump and tank size must be in line with their definition of whatever type of rig they have funded you for.
    Ah, leave it to the Fed Govt to forbid all acts of common sense.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    And to derate the pump, they will usually put a blind cap on one or more discharges, just make sure that they don't down size your intake size. I am guessing as soon as you clear the fed oversight you will upgrade the pump
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    And to derate the pump, they will usually put a blind cap on one or more discharges, just make sure that they don't down size your intake size. I am guessing as soon as you clear the fed oversight you will upgrade the pump
    Actually, all the manufacturer has to do is have a third party test done to the standard you desire. You can have as many discharges or increased suctions as you wish. If UL, for example, does the test at 500 GPM they only certify that it will meet the standards for the 500 GPM test. It isn't hard to get a 1500 GPM pump to pass a 500 GPM test. UL or any third party will gladly perform the test and issue a certification and collect their fee. Give them a call.

    There is no rule or guideline that prohibits using 4" suction hose on a 6" inlet to pass a 500 GPM test. There is also no rule requiring using every discharge to pass a test.

    Not sure who the original poster is working with here but, they should know this. Just because Waterous, Hale, or Darley certify the capability of the pump doesn't mean diddly. The apparatus is rated by the third party testing organization due to the fact that installation and plumbing drastically affect performance and thus, the requirement for third party testing. De-rating a pump is nothing new and not really controversial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Actually, all the manufacturer has to do is have a third party test done to the standard you desire. You can have as many discharges or increased suctions as you wish. If UL, for example, does the test at 500 GPM they only certify that it will meet the standards for the 500 GPM test. It isn't hard to get a 1500 GPM pump to pass a 500 GPM test. UL or any third party will gladly perform the test and issue a certification and collect their fee. Give them a call.

    There is no rule or guideline that prohibits using 4" suction hose on a 6" inlet to pass a 500 GPM test. There is also no rule requiring using every discharge to pass a test.

    Not sure who the original poster is working with here but, they should know this. Just because Waterous, Hale, or Darley certify the capability of the pump doesn't mean diddly. The apparatus is rated by the third party testing organization due to the fact that installation and plumbing drastically affect performance and thus, the requirement for third party testing. De-rating a pump is nothing new and not really controversial.
    Understood its not new -- many of the grant inspectors are calling the bluff on the "engine in tankers clothing" When trying to pull a fast one , I would like to do more than point to a plate.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Actually, all the manufacturer has to do is have a third party test done to the standard you desire. You can have as many discharges or increased suctions as you wish. If UL, for example, does the test at 500 GPM they only certify that it will meet the standards for the 500 GPM test. It isn't hard to get a 1500 GPM pump to pass a 500 GPM test. UL or any third party will gladly perform the test and issue a certification and collect their fee. Give them a call.

    There is no rule or guideline that prohibits using 4" suction hose on a 6" inlet to pass a 500 GPM test. There is also no rule requiring using every discharge to pass a test.

    Not sure who the original poster is working with here but, they should know this. Just because Waterous, Hale, or Darley certify the capability of the pump doesn't mean diddly. The apparatus is rated by the third party testing organization due to the fact that installation and plumbing drastically affect performance and thus, the requirement for third party testing. De-rating a pump is nothing new and not really controversial.
    This is incorrect. The third party test is done to certify the pump will meet it's rated capacity. The rated capacity comes from the pump manufacturer, not the testing company. The OP specifically mentioned "re-plating" the pump because the pump manufacturer will need to create a new data plate for the pump.

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    when we bought a tanker a year ago the builder offered the waterous 1000 gpm pump at no increase in cost over a 500 gpm rated pump. They buy a lot of 1000 gpm pumps. We had initially only specced a 500.
    number of discharges and size of intake being the main differences.
    this was not grant funded

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    FFWalt nailed it. Many pumps are available in multiple rated capacities. In some of them there are different impellers depending on the rating, but in many cases it is just a question of whether there is enough horsepower and speed available for the pump to make the higher rating.

    The pump manufacturer is the one who has to rate and certify the pump. The 3rd party pre-delivery test is a verification of the manufacturers certification required by the NFPA. In order for a pump to be re-rated (whether up or down) the pump manufacturer must approve the change and issue new plates for the pump and a new pump certification document. Typically they will accept a 3rd party test at the new rating and issue the change unless their engineering department has concerns. Or at least that's how it is handled at Waterous.
    Just a guy...

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    I know Memphis used to do something kind of similar. They would buy and certify pumpers to 1000 gpm, but would spec the pumps out to 1500 gpm. That way as the apparatus got older and the pump got weaker or impellers got worn, it would still easily pass annual pump tests.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 05-15-2014 at 11:10 PM.
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    It's also possible that they don't want to have it classified as an engine simply because they don't want to for operational or rating related reasons, or can't afford to equip it fully to receive full credit as an engine.

    Here most departments do have 1000gpm pumps on their tankers, but simply call them tankers, not tanker-pumpers for the rating because they want to stock them with service company equipment, and get credit for a service company vs. getting credit for another engine.

    Most of them do carry pre-connects, supply line, SCBA and basic engine company equipment, and can and often do function as the first in-company, especially at brush fires. many of them also carry the department's 35' ladder for rating bonus points.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-15-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I know Memphis used to do something kind of similar. They would buy and certify pumpers to 1000 gpm, but would spec the pumps out to 1500 gpm. That way as the apparatus got older and the pump got weaker or impellers got worn, it would still easily pass annual pump tests.
    Not uncommon at all. There are many departments that ask for a dual certification on the pump when it is built, such as 1250/1500 or 1750/2000. Fairly common that they will ask that it be plated at the lower rating.
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