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Thread: Another body found in un-searched structure

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Sure -but the response should have been , "The building was structurally unsound and entering the building would have endangered the firefighters. We performed a secondary search from the exterior to the best of our abilities. " - having said that -looking at the pictures , I wasn't able to see any foundation vents or basement windows, im guessing a slab.
    True, but what I said in paragraph two still stands. Decisions were made. Looks like bad decisions, but maybe with more knowledge of what actually happened we'll realize that some good decisions were made.

    Bottom line; there is something to be learned here. Hopefully these guys exam this fire, and figure out a way to prevent this from happening again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The52nd View Post
    True, but what I said in paragraph two still stands. Decisions were made. Looks like bad decisions, but maybe with more knowledge of what actually happened we'll realize that some good decisions were made.

    Seriously? You believe not even attempting a cursory look for victims or conducting a fire cause investigation are okay? Sorry NO. If the structure was abandoned how did the fire start? Were the utilities still hooked up? If not, AGAIN, how did the fire start? How do you just walk away without knowing that? Maybe they have an arsonist on the loose and there was evidence in there to help catch them. Add to that a victim is found 2 WEEKS after the fire. Apparently 2 weeks after the fire someone went in there and found the body. Was the building somehow miraculously safer 2 weeks after it burned? It appears so since someone entered. There is NO legitimate excuse for this, it would still be unacceptable if overhaul and an investigation had been done and the body missed, but compound that by the fact that neither was done.


    Bottom line; there is something to be learned here. Hopefully these guys exam this fire, and figure out a way to prevent this from happening again.

    Yep, it should be real easy to remedy. Overhaul a structure fire and do a fire cause investigation. Pretty basic stuff.
    There is no defense for this, no matter who it happens to a volunteer FD or a big city career FD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The52nd View Post
    Not to lay blame, or to defend anyone because someone screwed up, but anyone who says they don't know of an example of a fire where we didn't physically overhaul is either a liar, or very new. ....

    As it relates to this thread; I wasn't there, didn't see how "involved" the building was, and know nothing of the decisions and tactics the chief employeed, so I will refrain from placing blame. Hopefully the parties involved learn something, and make some changes to how they operate.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is no defense for this, no matter who it happens to a volunteer FD or a big city career FD.
    I think my first post on the subject is pretty clear.

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    This thread makes me think of a fire a couple of years ago. It was a two story home made of big blocks, not bricks , bigger. The roof was in the basement when we got there. There were several partial colapses of the walls when we were there, and no overhaul was done. We had an agreement with the homeowner that said he would not attempt to salvage anything until he could get an excavator in to knock down the walls. They went in anyhow and found some stuff, but I think it was the right thing to do not to enter at the time, or anytime for that matter. A vagrant could have broken in and started the fire I suppose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    This thread makes me think of a fire a couple of years ago. It was a two story home made of big blocks, not bricks , bigger. The roof was in the basement when we got there. There were several partial colapses of the walls when we were there, and no overhaul was done. We had an agreement with the homeowner that said he would not attempt to salvage anything until he could get an excavator in to knock down the walls. They went in anyhow and found some stuff, but I think it was the right thing to do not to enter at the time, or anytime for that matter. A vagrant could have broken in and started the fire I suppose.
    I don't get the difficulty in getting a back hoe out to remove debris or knock down walls. We have used them numerous times for barn fires or machine sheds and can usually have one on location within a couple of hours. Maybe some pre-planning and an arrangement with a local contractor would be a good idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I don't get the difficulty in getting a back hoe out to remove debris or knock down walls. We have used them numerous times for barn fires or machine sheds and can usually have one on location within a couple of hours. Maybe some pre-planning and an arrangement with a local contractor would be a good idea.
    Agreed with fyredup -- we have cross trained with the towing companies -a crane company, our city street department and a large oil drilling/energy company. Not only can they provide heavy machinery but they do fracking and can deliver large volumes of water on short notice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I don't get the difficulty in getting a back hoe out to remove debris or knock down walls. We have used them numerous times for barn fires or machine sheds and can usually have one on location within a couple of hours. Maybe some pre-planning and an arrangement with a local contractor would be a good idea.
    In this area we routinely make use of both contractor and local municipality heavy equipment for such purposes. The only problem with contractors is that they often have their equipment committed at jobsites, which may be distant from the scene, or they simply don't have a convenient means of moving it (trackhoe is at A, truck/trailer to haul it is at B).

    A number of municipalities have trackhoes or Gradalls which will usually do the job.

    On not finding a victim, even with overhaul - we responded to an MVA with fire some years ago. Two of the three occupants escaped the vehicle, then walked a couple of miles to one of their houses, all while the compact pick-up was on fire.

    A vigorous overhaul (or firefighting) with a heavy stream would have completely obliterated what little remained of their friend, left in the back seat of the extended cab. The fire had nearly burned itself out, negating the need to do much firefighting.

    Only on the return of the two who escaped did we have any idea there was a third person in the vehicle.
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    Missing a body can and has happened to some of the best, having said that , looking at the structure and having worked my fair share of fatalities, I would bet that the remains in that house was far more than teeth. -What sets this apart from other cases is the very public "justa" defense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Missing a body can and has happened to some of the best, having said that , looking at the structure and having worked my fair share of fatalities, I would bet that the remains in that house was far more than teeth. -What sets this apart from other cases is the very public "justa" defense.
    Yup. I have no problem with the lack of a search; we've all had structure fires that were far beyond survivability, much less tenability. If this house was too fully involved to search, that's just how the ball bounces sometimes.

    And I'll cut them some slack for missing a body IF:

    1. There was no report of a missing occupant, AND
    2. The structure was so far gone as to make overhaul little more than a good soaking of ashes.

    But...

    A. Saying "We're just volunteers" does not get you carte blanche for incompetence nor a ghetto pass for half-*****ing it, and
    B. Fulfilling both #1 and #2 above is a pretty good stretch.
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    If the structure was unsafe at the time of the fire how was it safe enough 2 weeks later to find the body?

    Vacant house. No investigation. How did the fire start?
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    We have several dirt contractors in the area who are willing to help and have in the past. I dont think that the city or county is going to pay to demolish a private dwelling. Who pays when you guys bring in a piece of heavy equipment?
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    We have several dirt contractors in the area who are willing to help and have in the past. I dont think that the city or county is going to pay to demolish a private dwelling. Who pays when you guys bring in a piece of heavy equipment?
    Property owner's insurance company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If the structure was unsafe at the time of the fire how was it safe enough 2 weeks later to find the body?

    Vacant house. No investigation. How did the fire start?
    This^^.

    Not to be a slam to the52nd but I'm no liar, nor am I new to the service. We search every time. "Going defensive" here means nobody enters until it has been deemed safe to enter, before the hoses are rolled up and the rigs made available. And we have found a body or two, unfortunately deader than sheet. We will leave the body in place until our investigators are done, sometimes mopping up in different areas, putting out smokers near them, or just waiting outside. The coroner will come scoop up the body, then we finish with overhaul.

    Now if you want to split hairs, if the fire consumes everything, then we simply walk on top of it digging around.
    I'm kinda getting the feeling that some here think that going defensive means lobbing water on it till it's out and leaving without checking your work.
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    Say what you want, say it however you want, sugarcoat it, but the fact remains they didn't do their job. Their excuses are no different and just as thin as the guys that claim they had to go back for a 'rekindle'.

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    [QUOTE=snowball;1406599]This^^.

    Not to be a slam to the52nd but I'm no liar, nor am I new to the service. We search every time.

    Search every time? Let me get this straight. You've never roller up on a building that was fully involved, fire in every window? Or you're saying you still somehow made it in, and searched? Just curious.

    "Going defensive" here means nobody enters until it has been deemed safe to enter, before the hoses are rolled up and the rigs made available.

    I concure with this fully. But, when is it deemed safe enough to enter? In this case it seems, right or wrong, that it took 2 weeks for that decision to be made.

    And we have found a body or two, unfortunately deader than sheet. We will leave the body in place until our investigators are done, sometimes mopping up in different areas, putting out smokers near them, or just waiting outside. The coroner will come scoop up the body, then we finish with overhaul.

    Yes, and yes. Unfortunately there have been a lot of bodies lately. Seems like jumping in front of a subwway train has become popular. But that's really a different thread.

    Now if you want to split hairs, if the fire consumes everything, then we simply walk on top of it digging around.

    It's not unheard of to leave a couple of detail compainies to finish the overhaul, especially when the building has been well consumed, and it looks like there will be the need to have the place sat on for a bit.

    I'm kinda getting the feeling that some here think that going defensive means lobbing water on it till it's out and leaving without checking your work.

    I certainly hope you don't think I believe that.

    We all know that a lot of the problems we see in the fire service arise out of lack of experience. I don't know squat about the fire dept that allowed this to happen, but I'd hazard to guess that this was an experience issue.

    A lot of problems we have when we discuss things like this is the fire service are when people use, and stick to absolutes. There are no "always'" and "nevers" in the fire service. No two fire grounds are the same. Every fire ground is dynamic, and often we need to call an audible.

    And none of this is meant to defend what happened. Just trying to point out that without more info, we don't know enough, even though it looks terrible, to pass judgement.

    **Messed up the quotes somehow. Forgive the lousy formatting at the end.

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    [QUOTE=The52nd;1406630]
    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    This^^.

    Not to be a slam to the52nd but I'm no liar, nor am I new to the service. We search every time.

    Search every time? Let me get this straight. You've never roller up on a building that was fully involved, fire in every window? Or you're saying you still somehow made it in, and searched? Just curious.

    Why are you being so obtuse? It is obvious, and it has been said many times by others here, that whether you are talking about doing a search immediately on arrival, or after the fire is out, a search needs to be done. The thing that simply can't be eliminated here is that there was a victim in the building and no one searched or did an investigation until 2 weeks after the fact.

    "Going defensive" here means nobody enters until it has been deemed safe to enter, before the hoses are rolled up and the rigs made available.

    I concure with this fully. But, when is it deemed safe enough to enter? In this case it seems, right or wrong, that it took 2 weeks for that decision to be made.

    And if that is the best defense they have and the most logical explanation you have to support their decision to not search or investigate it is ludicrous beyond belief. Even if they found evidence of arson 2 weeks later good luck proving it in court, suppose the victim had been murdered and the fire used to cover it up? The fire department screwed up so large it is unimaginable.

    And we have found a body or two, unfortunately deader than sheet. We will leave the body in place until our investigators are done, sometimes mopping up in different areas, putting out smokers near them, or just waiting outside. The coroner will come scoop up the body, then we finish with overhaul.

    Yes, and yes. Unfortunately there have been a lot of bodies lately. Seems like jumping in front of a subwway train has become popular. But that's really a different thread.

    Nice totally unrelated to the topic comment. What exactly was your point?

    Now if you want to split hairs, if the fire consumes everything, then we simply walk on top of it digging around.

    It's not unheard of to leave a couple of detail compainies to finish the overhaul, especially when the building has been well consumed, and it looks like there will be the need to have the place sat on for a bit.

    Then why do you keep making excuses for this fire department that didn't do overhaul, didn't do a search, and didn't do an investigation in a vacant house.

    I'm kinda getting the feeling that some here think that going defensive means lobbing water on it till it's out and leaving without checking your work.

    I certainly hope you don't think I believe that.

    If you don't then explain your defense of this FD?

    We all know that a lot of the problems we see in the fire service arise out of lack of experience. I don't know squat about the fire dept that allowed this to happen, but I'd hazard to guess that this was an experience issue.

    A lot of problems we have when we discuss things like this is the fire service are when people use, and stick to absolutes. There are no "always'" and "nevers" in the fire service. No two fire grounds are the same. Every fire ground is dynamic, and often we need to call an audible.

    And none of this is meant to defend what happened. Just trying to point out that without more info, we don't know enough, even though it looks terrible, to pass judgement.
    Yet you keep defending them. The fact that this was a vacant house, with a fire, SCREAMS for an investigation into fire cause. The fact that neighbors said their friend was seen drinking around the house SCREAMS for a search for a victim. Overhaul, search, fire cause investigation are all skils and concepts taught in firefighter entry level fire classes.

    There are in fact absolutes in the fire service, and do your job is one of them.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-19-2014 at 07:18 PM.
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406645]
    Quote Originally Posted by The52nd View Post

    Yet you keep defending them. The fact that this was a vacant house, with a fire, SCREAMS for an investigation into fire cause. The fact that neighbors said their friend was seen drinking around the house SCREAMS for a search for a victim. Overhaul, search, fire cause investigation are all skils and concepts taught in firefighter entry level fire classes.


    There are in fact absolutes in the fire service, and do your job is one of them.
    I'm not defending anyone one, because I don't know the entire story. Nor am I balming anyone, because (like you) I don't know the entire story. If you have some details as to why the place wasn't overhauled, why it took two weeks to get someone in the rubble, why they didn't begin an investigation into the cause sooner, please share them with us. But until those questions are answered we don't really know what happened, other than a body was missed, do we, Ike?


    In less diplomatic terms; I think people need to stop assuming they know what happened, and shut the f**k up (especially on a public forum) until they actually know the details.

    This being a pretty simple concept to understand, this will be my last post on the subject. I've been heard. Agree or not, I've no overwhelming need to argue and justify my every position in life, nor feel any compulsion to have to win every debate.
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    [QUOTE=The52nd;1406685]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    I'm not defending anyone one, because I don't know the entire story. Nor am I balming anyone, because (like you) I don't know the entire story. If you have some details as to why the place wasn't overhauled, why it took two weeks to get someone in the rubble, why they didn't begin an investigation into the cause sooner, please share them with us. But until those questions are answered we don't really know what happened, other than a body was missed, do we, Ike?


    In less diplomatic terms; I think people need to stop assuming they know what happened, and shut the f**k up (especially on a public forum) until they actually know the details.

    This being a pretty simple concept to understand, this will be my last post on the subject. I've been heard. Agree or not, I've no overwhelming need to argue and justify my every position in life, nor feel any compulsion to have to win every debate.
    If there were extenuating circumstances -- I don't know -- maybe swarms of killer bees that took two weeks to kill, zombie outbreak, house was on a sacred burial ground, that prevented doing a very basic search, the chief should have informed the press of them. Instead we got the "justavolunteer" excuse.The bottom line is a body was left in a house for two weeks before being discovered. It seems like some people just want to lower the bar, instead of rolling up their sleeves.
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    [QUOTE=The52nd;1406685]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    I'm not defending anyone one, because I don't know the entire story. Nor am I balming anyone, because (like you) I don't know the entire story. If you have some details as to why the place wasn't overhauled, why it took two weeks to get someone in the rubble, why they didn't begin an investigation into the cause sooner, please share them with us. But until those questions are answered we don't really know what happened, other than a body was missed, do we, Ike?


    In less diplomatic terms; I think people need to stop assuming they know what happened, and shut the f**k up (especially on a public forum) until they actually know the details.

    This being a pretty simple concept to understand, this will be my last post on the subject. I've been heard. Agree or not, I've no overwhelming need to argue and justify my every position in life, nor feel any compulsion to have to win every debate.
    You can't justify your position, or their failure to act, so walk away, Homer.

    The "we're just volunteers" isn't an excuse, it's a cop out and the only answer the chief had.
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406725]
    Quote Originally Posted by The52nd View Post
    The "we're just volunteers" isn't an excuse, it's a cop out and the only answer the chief had.
    Really? You were there? You know the Chief said that and only that? You know a reporter didn't take one small snippet of a statement and use that? You truly know all the facts on this? Do you actually have any true factual knowledge of what went on?


    You constantly, on these boards, attack people for acting without the facts....but you have no problem doing so yourself.
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    Show me where it is in the job requirement to go search a derelict burned out building for dead bodies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Show me where it is in the job requirement to go search a derelict burned out building for dead bodies.
    A few months ago there was a video of a firefighter escorting an elderly woman across an icy street. I bet that was no where to be found in his "job description" -- He did what he thought was right.
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    [QUOTE=Bones42;1406738]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Really? You were there? You know the Chief said that and only that? You know a reporter didn't take one small snippet of a statement and use that? You truly know all the facts on this? Do you actually have any true factual knowledge of what went on?


    You constantly, on these boards, attack people for acting without the facts....but you have no problem doing so yourself.
    Actually, I watched the interview. Did you?

    Frankly, if you dislike what I say so much don't pukking read it. You are becoming like scfire following me around and scolding me. The truth is the chief said "we're just volunteers." You don't like that I quote that, talk to him, he said it. Funny how it can be an excuse sometimes, but it is an insult others.

    What facts would you dispute? No search dispite the fact neighbors said a guy was hanging around the house drinking, no investigation in a vacant house, how did the fire start? The body found 2 weeks later when obviously someone entered this death trap and found the body. What facts are in question?
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406776]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post

    The body found 2 weeks later when obviously someone entered this death trap and found the body. What facts are in question?
    Bear in mind that its status as a deathtrap was only for as long as the thing was on fire. It was un-searchable if it was truly fully involved. After it was out, obviously it was quite searchable. The issue is the reliability of the information suggesting someone was in it, and whether that warranted a search of the ashes.
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406776]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post

    Actually, I watched the interview. Did you?

    Frankly, if you dislike what I say so much don't pukking read it. You are becoming like scfire following me around and scolding me. The truth is the chief said "we're just volunteers." You don't like that I quote that, talk to him, he said it. Funny how it can be an excuse sometimes, but it is an insult others.

    What facts would you dispute? No search dispite the fact neighbors said a guy was hanging around the house drinking, no investigation in a vacant house, how did the fire start? The body found 2 weeks later when obviously someone entered this death trap and found the body. What facts are in question?
    No one follows you around...you just comment on lots of threads.

    Here's 1 simple fact we don't know.....was there a search done or not? The body wasn't found, doesn't mean a search was not done. Was the body so covered in debris (Collier's mansion) that it was not discovered until demolition crews removed layers and layers of it? Was the body under collapsed material that could not be removed until equipment was available? Was there credible statements that the person had exitted? Please tell me....you seem to have all the facts.
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