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Thread: Another body found in un-searched structure

  1. #41
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=The52nd;1406630]
    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    This^^.

    Not to be a slam to the52nd but I'm no liar, nor am I new to the service. We search every time.

    Search every time? Let me get this straight. You've never roller up on a building that was fully involved, fire in every window? Or you're saying you still somehow made it in, and searched? Just curious.

    Why are you being so obtuse? It is obvious, and it has been said many times by others here, that whether you are talking about doing a search immediately on arrival, or after the fire is out, a search needs to be done. The thing that simply can't be eliminated here is that there was a victim in the building and no one searched or did an investigation until 2 weeks after the fact.

    "Going defensive" here means nobody enters until it has been deemed safe to enter, before the hoses are rolled up and the rigs made available.

    I concure with this fully. But, when is it deemed safe enough to enter? In this case it seems, right or wrong, that it took 2 weeks for that decision to be made.

    And if that is the best defense they have and the most logical explanation you have to support their decision to not search or investigate it is ludicrous beyond belief. Even if they found evidence of arson 2 weeks later good luck proving it in court, suppose the victim had been murdered and the fire used to cover it up? The fire department screwed up so large it is unimaginable.

    And we have found a body or two, unfortunately deader than sheet. We will leave the body in place until our investigators are done, sometimes mopping up in different areas, putting out smokers near them, or just waiting outside. The coroner will come scoop up the body, then we finish with overhaul.

    Yes, and yes. Unfortunately there have been a lot of bodies lately. Seems like jumping in front of a subwway train has become popular. But that's really a different thread.

    Nice totally unrelated to the topic comment. What exactly was your point?

    Now if you want to split hairs, if the fire consumes everything, then we simply walk on top of it digging around.

    It's not unheard of to leave a couple of detail compainies to finish the overhaul, especially when the building has been well consumed, and it looks like there will be the need to have the place sat on for a bit.

    Then why do you keep making excuses for this fire department that didn't do overhaul, didn't do a search, and didn't do an investigation in a vacant house.

    I'm kinda getting the feeling that some here think that going defensive means lobbing water on it till it's out and leaving without checking your work.

    I certainly hope you don't think I believe that.

    If you don't then explain your defense of this FD?

    We all know that a lot of the problems we see in the fire service arise out of lack of experience. I don't know squat about the fire dept that allowed this to happen, but I'd hazard to guess that this was an experience issue.

    A lot of problems we have when we discuss things like this is the fire service are when people use, and stick to absolutes. There are no "always'" and "nevers" in the fire service. No two fire grounds are the same. Every fire ground is dynamic, and often we need to call an audible.

    And none of this is meant to defend what happened. Just trying to point out that without more info, we don't know enough, even though it looks terrible, to pass judgement.
    Yet you keep defending them. The fact that this was a vacant house, with a fire, SCREAMS for an investigation into fire cause. The fact that neighbors said their friend was seen drinking around the house SCREAMS for a search for a victim. Overhaul, search, fire cause investigation are all skils and concepts taught in firefighter entry level fire classes.

    There are in fact absolutes in the fire service, and do your job is one of them.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-19-2014 at 06:18 PM.
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  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406645]
    Quote Originally Posted by The52nd View Post

    Yet you keep defending them. The fact that this was a vacant house, with a fire, SCREAMS for an investigation into fire cause. The fact that neighbors said their friend was seen drinking around the house SCREAMS for a search for a victim. Overhaul, search, fire cause investigation are all skils and concepts taught in firefighter entry level fire classes.


    There are in fact absolutes in the fire service, and do your job is one of them.
    I'm not defending anyone one, because I don't know the entire story. Nor am I balming anyone, because (like you) I don't know the entire story. If you have some details as to why the place wasn't overhauled, why it took two weeks to get someone in the rubble, why they didn't begin an investigation into the cause sooner, please share them with us. But until those questions are answered we don't really know what happened, other than a body was missed, do we, Ike?


    In less diplomatic terms; I think people need to stop assuming they know what happened, and shut the f**k up (especially on a public forum) until they actually know the details.

    This being a pretty simple concept to understand, this will be my last post on the subject. I've been heard. Agree or not, I've no overwhelming need to argue and justify my every position in life, nor feel any compulsion to have to win every debate.
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  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=The52nd;1406685]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    I'm not defending anyone one, because I don't know the entire story. Nor am I balming anyone, because (like you) I don't know the entire story. If you have some details as to why the place wasn't overhauled, why it took two weeks to get someone in the rubble, why they didn't begin an investigation into the cause sooner, please share them with us. But until those questions are answered we don't really know what happened, other than a body was missed, do we, Ike?


    In less diplomatic terms; I think people need to stop assuming they know what happened, and shut the f**k up (especially on a public forum) until they actually know the details.

    This being a pretty simple concept to understand, this will be my last post on the subject. I've been heard. Agree or not, I've no overwhelming need to argue and justify my every position in life, nor feel any compulsion to have to win every debate.
    If there were extenuating circumstances -- I don't know -- maybe swarms of killer bees that took two weeks to kill, zombie outbreak, house was on a sacred burial ground, that prevented doing a very basic search, the chief should have informed the press of them. Instead we got the "justavolunteer" excuse.The bottom line is a body was left in a house for two weeks before being discovered. It seems like some people just want to lower the bar, instead of rolling up their sleeves.
    ?

  4. #44
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=The52nd;1406685]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    I'm not defending anyone one, because I don't know the entire story. Nor am I balming anyone, because (like you) I don't know the entire story. If you have some details as to why the place wasn't overhauled, why it took two weeks to get someone in the rubble, why they didn't begin an investigation into the cause sooner, please share them with us. But until those questions are answered we don't really know what happened, other than a body was missed, do we, Ike?


    In less diplomatic terms; I think people need to stop assuming they know what happened, and shut the f**k up (especially on a public forum) until they actually know the details.

    This being a pretty simple concept to understand, this will be my last post on the subject. I've been heard. Agree or not, I've no overwhelming need to argue and justify my every position in life, nor feel any compulsion to have to win every debate.
    You can't justify your position, or their failure to act, so walk away, Homer.

    The "we're just volunteers" isn't an excuse, it's a cop out and the only answer the chief had.
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  5. #45
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406725]
    Quote Originally Posted by The52nd View Post
    The "we're just volunteers" isn't an excuse, it's a cop out and the only answer the chief had.
    Really? You were there? You know the Chief said that and only that? You know a reporter didn't take one small snippet of a statement and use that? You truly know all the facts on this? Do you actually have any true factual knowledge of what went on?


    You constantly, on these boards, attack people for acting without the facts....but you have no problem doing so yourself.
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  6. #46
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    Show me where it is in the job requirement to go search a derelict burned out building for dead bodies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Show me where it is in the job requirement to go search a derelict burned out building for dead bodies.
    A few months ago there was a video of a firefighter escorting an elderly woman across an icy street. I bet that was no where to be found in his "job description" -- He did what he thought was right.
    ?

  8. #48
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bones42;1406738]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Really? You were there? You know the Chief said that and only that? You know a reporter didn't take one small snippet of a statement and use that? You truly know all the facts on this? Do you actually have any true factual knowledge of what went on?


    You constantly, on these boards, attack people for acting without the facts....but you have no problem doing so yourself.
    Actually, I watched the interview. Did you?

    Frankly, if you dislike what I say so much don't pukking read it. You are becoming like scfire following me around and scolding me. The truth is the chief said "we're just volunteers." You don't like that I quote that, talk to him, he said it. Funny how it can be an excuse sometimes, but it is an insult others.

    What facts would you dispute? No search dispite the fact neighbors said a guy was hanging around the house drinking, no investigation in a vacant house, how did the fire start? The body found 2 weeks later when obviously someone entered this death trap and found the body. What facts are in question?
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  9. #49
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406776]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post

    The body found 2 weeks later when obviously someone entered this death trap and found the body. What facts are in question?
    Bear in mind that its status as a deathtrap was only for as long as the thing was on fire. It was un-searchable if it was truly fully involved. After it was out, obviously it was quite searchable. The issue is the reliability of the information suggesting someone was in it, and whether that warranted a search of the ashes.
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  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1406776]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post

    Actually, I watched the interview. Did you?

    Frankly, if you dislike what I say so much don't pukking read it. You are becoming like scfire following me around and scolding me. The truth is the chief said "we're just volunteers." You don't like that I quote that, talk to him, he said it. Funny how it can be an excuse sometimes, but it is an insult others.

    What facts would you dispute? No search dispite the fact neighbors said a guy was hanging around the house drinking, no investigation in a vacant house, how did the fire start? The body found 2 weeks later when obviously someone entered this death trap and found the body. What facts are in question?
    No one follows you around...you just comment on lots of threads.

    Here's 1 simple fact we don't know.....was there a search done or not? The body wasn't found, doesn't mean a search was not done. Was the body so covered in debris (Collier's mansion) that it was not discovered until demolition crews removed layers and layers of it? Was the body under collapsed material that could not be removed until equipment was available? Was there credible statements that the person had exitted? Please tell me....you seem to have all the facts.
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=EastKyFF;1406784]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Bear in mind that its status as a deathtrap was only for as long as the thing was on fire. It was un-searchable if it was truly fully involved. After it was out, obviously it was quite searchable. The issue is the reliability of the information suggesting someone was in it, and whether that warranted a search of the ashes.
    Correct. And we don't know. So why again would anyone bash this FD?
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  12. #52
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    The chief says "When we got here the home was totally engulfed, and we did what we could do. We're a volunteer fire department. There are things that might have been overlooked, but we did the best we could at the time." said the fire chief.

    The body wasn't found for 2 weeks. It doesn't matter I guess, for those of you that believe this is acceptable good for you, I don't.

    Keep hammering me if it makes you feel better. I can tell you I most certainly would not have thrown the "We're a volunteer fire department" trump card. I would have plainly said we screwed up and changes will be implemented to ensure it doesn't happen again. No excuses, own the mistake.

    The thing is they may be a very good FD, but the chief did them no favors by what he said.

    Carry on...
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-21-2014 at 11:46 PM.
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  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=EastKyFF;1406784]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Bear in mind that its status as a deathtrap was only for as long as the thing was on fire. It was un-searchable if it was truly fully involved. After it was out, obviously it was quite searchable. The issue is the reliability of the information suggesting someone was in it, and whether that warranted a search of the ashes.
    My comment was meant to be sarcastic, that doesn't play well in print I suppose.
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    http://5newsonline.com/2014/04/09/bu...me-identified/
    Been missing since the fire , buried under several INCHES of debris
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    http://5newsonline.com/2014/04/09/bu...me-identified/
    Been missing since the fire , buried under several INCHES of debris
    From the article:
    Once the fire was under control, Riddle said personnel from all three departments conducted a quick scan of the debris and reported no evidence suggested anyone was in the house.
    What was missing, TV not on? No lights? What kind of asinine statement is that? But it's all good, they are "just volunteers", right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    From the article:

    What was missing, TV not on? No lights? What kind of asinine statement is that? But it's all good, they are "just volunteers", right?
    Be careful SPFDRum....to some here this is entirely acceptable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    From the article:

    What was missing....
    Good question. Anyone know the answer?
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    I'm pretty sure I have a good understanding of the definition of secondary search. It does not include the phrase "a quick scan of the debris".

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I'm pretty sure I have a good understanding of the definition of secondary search. It does not include the phrase "a quick scan of the debris".
    Yeah, what he said!!
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  20. #60
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    The only time I do a quick scan of the debris, is when I finish taking a dump. At my age it's a good idea to start.
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