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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    To everyone who can actually have a rational thought not influenced by regurgitated left-wing media bullschitt, just remember these are the people who are trying to take your rights away...
    No rights are being taken away. One still has the right to bear arms.

    Your points are nothing but the regurgitated right wing paranoia.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Does the SFFD have a policy stating no alcohol on department property? Or do they have a policy of drinking while on duty and a zero tolerance policy for operating while intoxicated? If it is the latter, they are right in line with what the vast majority of people on this thread have already stated....no one may respond with alcohol in their system. If a department has received federal funding (think AFG), they must have a drug and alcohol policy in place.
    The trick here though is that somebody .... at least one member ....on that shift had to had notice something and it was never brought to the company officer's attention. Or he (the company officer) noticed it or it was brought to his attention and he did nothing.

    Either way, it's appears that at a minimum, the informal culture at that station on that shift was not a zero-tolerance policy. Was it that way at the station throughout all the shifts? was it that way at that battalion? Or that way department wide?

    My point is simple. If the department-wide culture is not to tolerate members responding after drinking, they won't, as they will get reported. That has nothing to do with if the station does or does not have a bar or if the department allows a beer or two after drill. It has to do with developing a culture from the bottom up at both the formal and informal levels that does not tolerate members drinking and responding, and that culture can be developed with policies and rules that are enforced if the department chooses to have a bar at the station.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-09-2014 at 05:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No rights are being taken away.
    There are those here who are actively working to do so. First you take away the "assault weapons." Then you reclassify other guns as "assault weapons." It's already out there.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    There are those here who are actively working to do so. First you take away the "assault weapons." Then you reclassify other guns as "assault weapons." It's already out there.
    More of the right wing paranoia talking points.

    Gun owners don't help themselves when they rush to the aid of a thief and point guns at those enforcing the law.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Images like this don't help.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Images like this don't help.
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    I know it doesn't for you, but for the rest of us it does.

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    I just lost a friend yesterday. He was murdered when he went to see what three individuals were doing on his property. They were in the process of stripping a car. He was on the phone with S/O dispatch when he was shot to death. I feel, and I still feel that we should have open carry laws in place. If everyone were armed, the bad guys would feel less confident. I don't know if the outcome of yesterday would have been different, but what can it hurt keeping honest law abiding citizens armed? Keeping them disarmed and regulated doesn't seem to be working very well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I just lost a friend yesterday. He was murdered when he went to see what three individuals were doing on his property. They were in the process of stripping a car. He was on the phone with S/O dispatch when he was shot to death. I feel, and I still feel that we should have open carry laws in place. If everyone were armed, the bad guys would feel less confident. I don't know if the outcome of yesterday would have been different, but what can it hurt keeping honest law abiding citizens armed? Keeping them disarmed and regulated doesn't seem to be working very well.
    sorry for your loss
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I just lost a friend yesterday. He was murdered when he went to see what three individuals were doing on his property. They were in the process of stripping a car. He was on the phone with S/O dispatch when he was shot to death. I feel, and I still feel that we should have open carry laws in place. If everyone were armed, the bad guys would feel less confident. I don't know if the outcome of yesterday would have been different, but what can it hurt keeping honest law abiding citizens armed? Keeping them disarmed and regulated doesn't seem to be working very well.
    I am truly sorry for your loss. Violent death, especially over something like this, is senseless and it leaves all those left behind wonndering.

    Wisconsin is an open carry with no permit required state, and a concealed carry with a permit required state. As I do not yet have my concelaed carry I have on occasion open carried when I have gone to town to take care of errands such as a trip to the gorcery store. No one has said a word about my open carry or made an issue of it to any store management, or dialed 911. My son has open carried off and on for 2 years with no issues, he now has his CCW so he does not open carry very often any more.

    I live in a small rural community on an a seasonally busy county highway. I am roughly 1/4 mile away from a county park that has a reputation as a place to smoke dope or make-out with your significant other. I have had distressed or stuck motorists pound on my door as late as 0130 in the morning. Some have wanted to come in, some wanted me to make phone calls for them, some wanted to be towed from being stuck. I seldom answer the door after dark anymore without a gun in my hand. Paranoid? I think not. Prepared not to be a victim is how I see it. Yes, I have made phines calls for some. Yes, I have even gone and pulled people out of the mud or snow in the park. And YES, when it didn't feel right I called 911 and requested a squad to my address.

    FRankly, I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks about my carrying a gun. It is legal in my state, it is my right as a free man with no criminal record, and as such I will do it whenever I please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I know it doesn't for you, but for the rest of us it does.
    Okay, I'll bite. How does an image of a government hating wacko pointing a weapon (which according to my hunter safety class back in the 60's I have to assume is loaded till proven otherwise) at federal officials doing their job in executing an enforcement action against a thief a good thing?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I just lost a friend yesterday. He was murdered when he went to see what three individuals were doing on his property. They were in the process of stripping a car. He was on the phone with S/O dispatch when he was shot to death. I feel, and I still feel that we should have open carry laws in place. If everyone were armed, the bad guys would feel less confident. I don't know if the outcome of yesterday would have been different, but what can it hurt keeping honest law abiding citizens armed? Keeping them disarmed and regulated doesn't seem to be working very well.
    Deepest condolences on your loss snowball.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Okay, I'll bite. How does an image of a government hating wacko pointing a weapon (which according to my hunter safety class back in the 60's I have to assume is loaded till proven otherwise) at federal officials doing their job in executing an enforcement action against a thief a good thing?
    Why did the BLM need to show up armed to the teeth, with snipers of their own in place?

    The government works for US, the people. We DO NOT live to surrender to their wants and desires. Both sides of the Bundy issue needed to be handled better, and I don't think Cliven Bundy is completely innocent in all of this. That being said, I don't think there's a reason that the Bureau of LAND MANAGEMENT needed to come in with armed agents and snipers like a bunch of jack-booted thugs.

    SC, I agree wholeheartedly with you on some of your posts specific to firefighting, but when it comes to politics, your head is shoved so far up the Donkey's *** that I don't think you know which way is up anymore. You've lived in Kommifornia too long, and clearly are so used to being a servant to the wants of the politicians who tell you what is good and what is bad, that I don't think you could form a clear rational thought on your own.
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Why did the BLM need to show up armed to the teeth, with snipers of their own in place?

    The government works for US, the people. We DO NOT live to surrender to their wants and desires. Both sides of the Bundy issue needed to be handled better, and I don't think Cliven Bundy is completely innocent in all of this. That being said, I don't think there's a reason that the Bureau of LAND MANAGEMENT needed to come in with armed agents and snipers like a bunch of jack-booted thugs.
    So how exactly should they handle someone who has openly flouted the law and lost every court case during the last 20 years? That same person (and his spouse) made it clear they were well armed and prepared to do whatever it took to protect their cows (grazing on public land the Bundy's never owned). Bundy has had ample opportunity to resolve this issue with a far lower level of force being used. He could have paid his grazing fees as demanded by the agreement he made. He could have not used public lands for grazing (until his fees and penalties were paid). The BLM only rose force to that level after numerous attempts to resolve the issue over the last 20 years. What choice did they have when it became known there was a real potential of being confronted by a bunch of well-armed government hating wackos? Making this group even more pathetic was the revealed plan that they were positioning women and children to be in the crossfire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    SC, I agree wholeheartedly with you on some of your posts specific to firefighting, but when it comes to politics, your head is shoved so far up the Donkey's *** that I don't think you know which way is up anymore. You've lived in Kommifornia too long, and clearly are so used to being a servant to the wants of the politicians who tell you what is good and what is bad, that I don't think you could form a clear rational thought on your own.
    You obviously don't own rental properties. If you did, you'd see Bundy for what he is, a thief. In this case the government IS working for the people. The only desires being taken away are Bundy's desires to have the US taxpayer subsidize his business model.
    Last edited by scfire86; 05-10-2014 at 10:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Why did the BLM need to show up armed to the teeth, with snipers of their own in place?
    The question isn't why did the "BLM need to show uparmed to the teeth, with snipers of their own in place? The question is why does every governmental agency all of a sudden need their own army? The BLM, the IRS, the Department of Education and more that I am sure I don't know of. Somebody please explain why the FBI, US Marshalls, or even the ATF can't handle these situations instead of arming ever government agency to the teeth.

    But then again we are arming local police and sheriff's departments like little military outfits. Armored cars, fully automatic weapons, grenade launchers, and more. Add to that black clothing, helmets and face masks to hide their identity. Why do street police officers need to hide their identity when enforcing the law? Add to that the sophisticated surveilance equipment that has been made available and the freedom we have erodes a little bit every day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The question isn't why did the "BLM need to show uparmed to the teeth, with snipers of their own in place?......
    None of which changes the FACT that Bundy is a thief.

    Given the amount of territory they oversee, it's not unreasonable for them to have their own enforcement section.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    None of which changes the FACT that Bundy is a thief.
    You could say the exact same thing about the BLM and the gubmunt. The BLM has been fencing off and excluding people from accessing public land for as long as I can remember. They use any excuse available to shut down these areas from endangered species, to naturally occurring asbestos, to bark beetle infestations. Where does the crime part come in? They still charge land use fees and receive funding for areas that have been closed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The question isn't why did the "BLM need to show uparmed to the teeth, with snipers of their own in place? The question is why does every governmental agency all of a sudden need their own army? The BLM, the IRS, the Department of Education and more that I am sure I don't know of. Somebody please explain why the FBI, US Marshalls, or even the ATF can't handle these situations instead of arming ever government agency to the teeth.

    But then again we are arming local police and sheriff's departments like little military outfits. Armored cars, fully automatic weapons, grenade launchers, and more. Add to that black clothing, helmets and face masks to hide their identity. Why do street police officers need to hide their identity when enforcing the law? Add to that the sophisticated surveilance equipment that has been made available and the freedom we have erodes a little bit every day.

    All of these agencies have their own responsibilities and laws to enforce. The ATF, FBI and US Marshalls have their own responsibilities, so unless you are advocating they massively increase the size of these agencies, the individual agencies will field law enforcement officers of their own, trained to deal with the crimes their agency is tasked to prevent.
    It is kind of like asking why an individual city needs a fire or police department. Federal Law Enforcement officers all attend the same training academy in Georgia, whether they investigate counterfeiting for the Treasury, illegal drugs for the DEA or lizard-napping capers for the BLM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Where does the crime part come in?
    The crime comes from Bundy not paying his grazing fees. He's taken the Feds to court and lost every time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The crime comes from Bundy not paying his grazing fees. He's taken the Feds to court and lost every time.
    That was actually a rhetorical question pertaining to my post. Did you know that the biggest chunk of the license and sticker fees collected from OHV vehicles goes to the BLM? That's quite a lot of money for the-posts and barbed wire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    That was actually a rhetorical question pertaining to my post. Did you know that the biggest chunk of the license and sticker fees collected from OHV vehicles goes to the BLM? That's quite a lot of money for the-posts and barbed wire.
    Not relevant to Bundy and the standoff with well armed anti-government wackos pointing guns at federal officers doing their job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    All of these agencies have their own responsibilities and laws to enforce. The ATF, FBI and US Marshalls have their own responsibilities, so unless you are advocating they massively increase the size of these agencies, the individual agencies will field law enforcement officers of their own, trained to deal with the crimes their agency is tasked to prevent.
    It is kind of like asking why an individual city needs a fire or police department. Federal Law Enforcement officers all attend the same training academy in Georgia, whether they investigate counterfeiting for the Treasury, illegal drugs for the DEA or lizard-napping capers for the BLM.
    And your point is what? There is no standardization of uniforms, radio frequencies used, weapons, or anything else. It is incredibly wasteful, and needless duplication, for every government agency to need, let alone have, their own police force. Take the number of federal law enforcement agencies in Washington DC alone. The last time I was their, I was told there are roughly 40 federal, and local police agencies in DC. Although my bet is today there are probably twice that many. The stupidity of it all is again, no standard unifroms, no interoperable radio frequencies, no weapon standardization, and bizarre jurisdictions. Take for example the White house, the street in front of it is DC police, the sidewalk is the Park Sevice and the grounds themselves are Secret Service. When I was there none of them could talk to each other on the radio.

    Frankly, your analogy that it is like each individual city needing a police and fire department is ludicrous and indefensible. The federal government is an entity that has federal responsibilities and as such has the entire nation as its jurisdiction. Each individual city is a governmental entity and has local responsibilities to supply services, such as police and fire.

    I would rather see an increase in agencies already in place than the creation of new law enforcement agencies and the necessary bureaucracy and associated costs to establish them, fund them and maintain them as they grow and become more bloated and wasteful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Not relevant to Bundy and the standoff with well armed anti-government wackos pointing guns at federal officers doing their job.
    True but the people are growing weary of being pushed around. I'm sure this won't be the last standoff we will see in our lifetime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    True but the people are growing weary of being pushed around. I'm sure this won't be the last standoff we will see in our lifetime.
    Heck it wasn't the first. There has been a long history of standoffs in this country...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And your point is what? There is no standardization of uniforms, radio frequencies used, weapons, or anything else. It is incredibly wasteful, and needless duplication, for every government agency to need, let alone have, their own police force. Take the number of federal law enforcement agencies in Washington DC alone. The last time I was their, I was told there are roughly 40 federal, and local police agencies in DC. Although my bet is today there are probably twice that many. The stupidity of it all is again, no standard unifroms, no interoperable radio frequencies, no weapon standardization, and bizarre jurisdictions. Take for example the White house, the street in front of it is DC police, the sidewalk is the Park Sevice and the grounds themselves are Secret Service. When I was there none of them could talk to each other on the radio.

    Frankly, your analogy that it is like each individual city needing a police and fire department is ludicrous and indefensible. The federal government is an entity that has federal responsibilities and as such has the entire nation as its jurisdiction. Each individual city is a governmental entity and has local responsibilities to supply services, such as police and fire.

    I would rather see an increase in agencies already in place than the creation of new law enforcement agencies and the necessary bureaucracy and associated costs to establish them, fund them and maintain them as they grow and become more bloated and wasteful.

    Yep, because government employees are inept, incompetent and wasteful. Turn it all over to the locals, or even better private industry because they are a paragon of virtue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And your point is what? There is no standardization of uniforms, radio frequencies used, weapons, or anything else. It is incredibly wasteful, and needless duplication, for every government agency to need, let alone have, their own police force. Take the number of federal law enforcement agencies in Washington DC alone.
    None of which is relevant to the FACT that a bunch of well armed government hating wackos were pointing their weapons are federal agents doing their jobs. Hardly an example of responsible firearms ownership.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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