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Thread: Aerial ladder tip loads ... Purchasing a new 100 foot rearmount.

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    Default Aerial ladder tip loads ... Purchasing a new 100 foot rearmount.

    Our vol dept is in the process of putting together a committee for a new ladder truck. Our district is about 5 square miles, mostly private dwellings, mixed occupancies , some 1 story commercials, And few MDs. We are replacing a 100 foot rearmount with another. We have many tower ladders in our surrounding departments . Our previous rig has a 500 tip load and pre piped water way. We are thinking about going with a 250 tip load ladder rear jacks only with a clip on water way fdny spec. We have only used the ladder pipe twice in 18 years and mostly use mutual aid tower ladders when it comes to master streams... Just would like to hear some insight and opinions on this ?

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    Why going with 100'?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Our ISO rating calls for 100 ft stick because we have a few 6 story apartment buildings .

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    If your looking for rear outriggers only Seagrave & Spartan ERV offer 500# tip loads @1000 GPM flow with only rear outriggers and straight down jacks in the front.

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    Would a shorter ladder reach the top of the 6 story apartment blocks? Also I am confused with why the ISO would demand a full 100 footer. Doesn't the ISO grading schedule default to a determined average of building height in your first due ladder response area? Would an 85 work? I dunno. Too many building variables for sure.

    Also I am thinking of another way to decrease apparatus costs. Do you have a working auto aid package with other agencies that can provide that big stick? Just thinking out loud here. Another way of agencies scratching each others backs. Finally, is a HD big ladder truck necessary? Like you said, ladder pipe activity is rare. My opinion only. HB of CJ (old coot)

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    Why would you not go with 100'. Its not just the height you have to consider, but even more so - the reach. There are 3-story apartment buildings that can be out of the reach of a 100' truck.

    How much would you save shorting yourself of 15' of ladder - not much.

    To the original poster - I think 100 is the way to go. Before you make any decision on halving the tip load, find out how much it is going to save you. My bet is that it will be negligible over the life of the apparatus.
    RK
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Doesn't sound like his area has many 3 story apartment buildings.

    But yes, the setback of residences can require the 100'.

    If that's why the 100' is wanted in his area, that would answer the question.

    Never heard of ISO requiring a ladder of certain length, and I'm getting ready to work on our 3rd ISO review.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Doesn't sound like his area has many 3 story apartment buildings.

    But yes, the setback of residences can require the 100'.

    If that's why the 100' is wanted in his area, that would answer the question.

    Never heard of ISO requiring a ladder of certain length, and I'm getting ready to work on our 3rd ISO review.
    A glaring example of problems within ISO certifications.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Sometimes the august ISO will let you get away with less ladder truck length. Depends upon many different factors. Basic ISO knowledge. Sometimes a 85 will work, sometimes a 75. Sometimes no powered ladder is needed at all as ground ladders will work. Service company.

    Also, is there anyway you can determine what kind of automatic aid contracts may or may not exist with all close or touching neighbour fire agencies? What I mean is, do or can you establish such and perhaps, just perhaps, may not need that big stick to begin with? I dunno. Just asking. HB of CJ (old coot)

    Just trying perhaps to save some $taxpayer$ bucks. Thinking outside the box. Excellent Forum here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Never heard of ISO requiring a ladder of certain length, and I'm getting ready to work on our 3rd ISO review.
    I believe you'll find that ISO considers all ladder companies have a 100 ft. aerial anything less cannot get full credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I believe you'll find that ISO considers all ladder companies have a 100 ft. aerial anything less cannot get full credit.
    Interesting, cuz we had a 75 foot Snorkle that was giving us full credit up until 2000 when it was replaced with a 100' TL. And we were very close to getting an 85' TL but decided on the extra cost of the 100' as it was more useful for mutual aid. Of course now, thanks to Sandy, buildings in my town are getting higher and further back so the 100' may be needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    A glaring example of problems within ISO certifications.
    Understatement of the year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Interesting, cuz we had a 75 foot Snorkle that was giving us full credit up until 2000 when it was replaced with a 100' TL.
    There may be a difference between getting full credit for what the apparatus is and the full credit of what they offer? According to their FSRS an aerial must reach the roof of every building in the community or be 100 ft in length. So if you could overcome setbacks and make the roof line of all your buildings then you could receive dull credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by foamunit View Post
    Our vol dept is in the process of putting together a committee for a new ladder truck. Our district is about 5 square miles, mostly private dwellings, mixed occupancies , some 1 story commercials, And few MDs. We are replacing a 100 foot rearmount with another. We have many tower ladders in our surrounding departments . Our previous rig has a 500 tip load and pre piped water way. We are thinking about going with a 250 tip load ladder rear jacks only with a clip on water way fdny spec. We have only used the ladder pipe twice in 18 years and mostly use mutual aid tower ladders when it comes to master streams... Just would like to hear some insight and opinions on this ?
    250# tip load will barely cover 1 FF with gear, no other FF or rescued person. So why would you want it? I can see the ladder pipe ops being taken care of by the MA companies, but that would leave the ladder's main mission of ventilation and rescue under served by the tip load.

    Just a thought... it is your area.

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    We do need the 100 ft ladder in our district to reach the roofs of some buildings. We also need the 100 ft to get full credit in our ISO rating. As far as tip load goes all fdny 100 aerial ladders have a 250 lb tip load and rear jacks only, fdny also climbs much taller buildings much more often then we do. Even though those ladders are rated for 250 pounds that rating is at the ladders worst angle with a 2-1 safety ratio while flowing 1000 gpm of water. So in reality the ladders strength is much more then 250lbs. The reason we like the 2 rear jacks only set up is its much faster if you have to make a rescue on arrival. Our department SOPs do not call for any peaked roof ladder ops we only operate on flat roofs. Under certain circumstances the chief may order a peaked roof cut and 95 % of the time it is done in the bucket of our neighboring depts. As far as the ladder pipe is concerned we have only used our pre piped water way 2 times in 18 years at fires besides drill. When it comes to master Streams almost all of the time we use our mutual aid depts tower ladders. That is why we are exploring the cheaper option of the clip on/portable ladder pipe. I'm also almost positive that ISO calls for a ladder pipe clip on or pre piped.

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    Did you take a look at the E-one 100 foot rearmount aerial with a single rear axle ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    Did you take a look at the E-one 100 foot rearmount aerial with a single rear axle ?
    No we are looking at seagrave, Spartan erv, and Ferrara

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    Quote Originally Posted by foamunit View Post
    As far as tip load goes all fdny 100 aerial ladders have a 250 lb tip load and rear jacks only, fdny also climbs much taller buildings much more often then we do. Even though those ladders are rated for 250 pounds that rating is at the ladders worst angle with a 2-1 safety ratio while flowing 1000 gpm of water.
    There is a lot in these two sentences to account for. Could it be that FDNY has less setback issues than most places, thus their aerials may typically fly at greater angles maximizing their tip loads? If your district will cause you to operate at lesser angles and push the limits of the tip load more routinely, you might consider that. You mentioned that your district is mostly low rise in nature other than a few 6 story MDs? Seems like the aerial can be expected to be operated at low angles more than the steep ones?

    The speed and ease of set up are no doubt attractive, our four jack tower is slow as hell compared to our old Maxim 100 ft. rearmount but the capabilities are far greater. Any of the manufacturer offer a greater safety factor than 2:1 for their 250 lb tip load? Lastly, you mentioned you only used the ladder pipe twice in 18 years, how many rescues upon arrival were needed?
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 04-29-2014 at 12:43 AM. Reason: keyboard caused spellig errors

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    Valid points!

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    Foamunit, please take the time to Google "Aerial ladder failures" and then read the reports carefully about how those failures occurred. Do Not rely upon individual salesmen to tell the WHOLE truth, but expect the discussion to steer you away from anything bad about their individual equipment. Almost every failure will have a force applied to the ladder that was NOT accounted for in the engineering, but is a significant risk associated with normal FD activity. Carefull read and understand the NYFD Ladder 12 failure in Brooklyn, caused by inertial loading and a twisting moment the the firefighter on the tip could not control. (Civilian action) Ask yourself how likely is this to occur in your community? Restricting tip loads... will you ladderman be forced to retreat and relinquish control of the tip to civilian fears or actions. Review the recent Boston failure, and the deaths in Texas. Evaluate the conditions and actions taken, then compare with your own department & level of training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuh shise View Post
    Foamunit, please take the time to Google "Aerial ladder failures" and then read the reports carefully about how those failures occurred. Do Not rely upon individual salesmen to tell the WHOLE truth, but expect the discussion to steer you away from anything bad about their individual equipment. Almost every failure will have a force applied to the ladder that was NOT accounted for in the engineering, but is a significant risk associated with normal FD activity. Carefull read and understand the NYFD Ladder 12 failure in Brooklyn, caused by inertial loading and a twisting moment the the firefighter on the tip could not control. (Civilian action) Ask yourself how likely is this to occur in your community? Restricting tip loads... will you ladderman be forced to retreat and relinquish control of the tip to civilian fears or actions. Review the recent Boston failure, and the deaths in Texas. Evaluate the conditions and actions taken, then compare with your own department & level of training.
    I have read those reports. the fdny failure was years ago, ladder 108 in 1994 I believe before the nfpa standard for aerial ladders was released

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    foamunit,

    After having worked off of a rear mount ladder with only two outriggers I would really discourage you from making that purchase based upon my experience. The ladder I worked off of only had two rear outriggers (1987 model) and utilized the rest of the apparatus suspension to stabilize the apparatus. This made a simple task more difficult because the suspension moved every time you did at the end of the stick. As a result not only were you dealing with the normal give in a ladder, you had to deal with the suspension moving back and forth. Might not seem like a big deal but when you are about 80' out it creates a lever that really moves the chassis back and forth.
    As with anything in the fire service you need to do what works for your department but I haven't run into a department yet that spec'd the bare minimum and was happy with it several years down the road. If the tip isn't rated at 500 pounds I would shy away from it. You'll regret the decision down in the future.
    Just my thoughts,
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    What FFWALT said.

    If you do buy a midmount 100' with only rear jacks, be especially careful when operating at low elevations at 10:00 and 2:00 (when facing the cab.)

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    I know FDNY is so unsafe and slow with their #250 tip loads....

    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post
    foamunit,

    After having worked off of a rear mount ladder with only two outriggers I would really discourage you from making that purchase based upon my experience. The ladder I worked off of only had two rear outriggers (1987 model) and utilized the rest of the apparatus suspension to stabilize the apparatus. This made a simple task more difficult because the suspension moved every time you did at the end of the stick. As a result not only were you dealing with the normal give in a ladder, you had to deal with the suspension moving back and forth. Might not seem like a big deal but when you are about 80' out it creates a lever that really moves the chassis back and forth.
    As with anything in the fire service you need to do what works for your department but I haven't run into a department yet that spec'd the bare minimum and was happy with it several years down the road. If the tip isn't rated at 500 pounds I would shy away from it. You'll regret the decision down in the future.
    Just my thoughts,
    Walt

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    Again, respectfully, nobody yet has answered or addressed the POSSIBILITY of auto aid plans negating the need for any owned ladder truck, regardless as to how it may or may not be specified? Do you have auto aid? Has anybody researched existing auto aid agreements or perhaps outlined future automatic aid plans? Do you need that ladder?

    Yeah, this is contrary to traditional thinking and I understand that. However, since new Ladder Trucks are now pushing up right again $ONE BIG ONE$, for a apparatus committee NOT TO CONSIDER ALL potential solutions may in fact end up costing the taxpayers one big pile of $tax money$. Again, my own views and opinions. Outside the box for sure.

    HB of CJ (old coot) Very old school. Rip Van Winkle. Excellent forum and thank you. Just trying to pass it forward. I THINK, (dangerous!) the old ISO schedule let an agency take the third highest building in a Ladder Truck's FIRST DUE district and use a ladder length that reached that roof for 100% credit. Has the new ISO grading schedule changed?

    Also....if one is not inclined to use Auto Aid on that all important first alarm structure fire turnout, then has anybody sat down and calculated what the overall ISO impact may be, (if any) using a shorter and cheaper Ladder Truck? This is straying away from a district's policy, strategy and tactics. ISO only. A cheaper LT or no LT may not affect your final ISO rating?

    Finally, over 40 years ago, our old 1968 American LaFrance tiller 100 ladder truck had the old four point tractor jacks; two big ones and two smaller ones. The hydraulic lines were very big and short. We had to polish them. When quickly deployed, the four jacks would lift the tractor drive axle clear off the ground in no time at all. Stable, but still had trailer frame flex issues.
    Last edited by HBofCJ; 05-03-2014 at 06:43 PM. Reason: clarifications

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