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Thread: Active Shooter Body Armor

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    Default Active Shooter Body Armor

    Hi Again. I've been tasked with developing the Active Shooter program for our department and will be working on a regional approach with neighboring departments. The Isla Vista shooting last night occurred about twenty minutes from our station, so I know there will be a new sense of urgency to move this forward. Does anyone know of grants for body armor? Would AFG cover that? Thanks, Nicoyaspa

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    Know nothing about this and think there are others



    http://ojp.gov/bvpbasi/home.html


    http://www.nij.gov/funding/Pages/equipment-funding.aspx


    You might talk to local, state , Feds in your area for help
    Last edited by fire49; 05-24-2014 at 09:26 PM.

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    Body armor cannot be obtained on AFG.

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    All of the DHS programs save for AFG related ones are being or already been altered to allow ballistic vests for any first responders. SHSGP, UASI, PSGP, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Know nothing about this and think there are others



    http://ojp.gov/bvpbasi/home.html


    http://www.nij.gov/funding/Pages/equipment-funding.aspx


    You might talk to local, state , Feds in your area for help
    The Bulletproof Vest Partnership grant program cannot be used except by certified law enforcement officers.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Can always ask

    Or have local police request them for medics

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Can always ask

    Or have local police request them for medics
    Actually, you can't. Believe me I have already argued and tried. The only way to do this is if the EMT/PM's are also certified as law enforcement officers as well.

    Per their RFP:

    Through the BVP Program, states, units of local government, and tribal governments are reimbursed for up to 50 percent of the cost of each unit of eligible body armor purchased for law enforcement officers. 2

    2. The term law enforcement officer refers to any officer, agent, or employee of a state, unit of local government, or federally recognized Indian tribe authorized by law or by a government agency to prevent, detect, or investigate any violation of criminal law, or to supervise criminal offenders. This encompasses full-time, part-time, and auxiliary personnel, whether paid or volunteer, and includes police officers, sheriffs’ deputies, correctional officers, parole and probation officers, and pre-trial services officers.
    Kurt Bradley
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    They give it to everyone else

    ""This encompasses full-time, part-time, and auxiliary personnel, whether paid or volunteer, and includes police officers, sheriffs’ deputies, correctional officers, parole and probation officers, and pre-trial services officers. """"

    Have to be other programs out there

    Maybe surplus military also ???

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    I personally would not wear "surplus bullet proof vest". As bc79er pointed out above there are other program that do allow them to have bullet proof vests. AFG won't allow it at this point until they can demonstrate to NFPA that they can withstand the rigors of fire; that's why they won't set it as a piece of PPE.

    Seriously, if there is an active shooter going on FD needs to pull back till law enforcement clears it. You really can't have active fireman trying to fight a fire and the police trying to apprehend or take down an active shooter going at the same time. I strongly agree that EMTs/PMs who have been tactically trained need the protection available to them.
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    Well said...

    Well the other thing is they did have a ten year shelf life???

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780 View Post
    Seriously, if there is an active shooter going on FD needs to pull back till law enforcement clears it. You really can't have active fireman trying to fight a fire and the police trying to apprehend or take down an active shooter going at the same time. I strongly agree that EMTs/PMs who have been tactically trained need the protection available to them.
    A number of departments (mine included) are training their fire/EMS personnel to go in while the situation is still warm to assess patients that are at the casualty collection points in areas the building or property that have already been cleared by LE. Those personnel would be protected by a minimum of two LE personnel with long guns as well. For some of us, the use of ballistic vests by non-tactical-medics is something we have to evaluate and attempt to secure funding for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    A number of departments (mine included) are training their fire/EMS personnel to go in while the situation is still warm to assess patients that are at the casualty collection points in areas the building or property that have already been cleared by LE. Those personnel would be protected by a minimum of two LE personnel with long guns as well. For some of us, the use of ballistic vests by non-tactical-medics is something we have to evaluate and attempt to secure funding for.
    Exactly as I understand it. This will be the new FD response to active shooter, and as I understand it, is a nationwide movement, consistent with public expectations. Bottom line for us is that we need to be able to secure funding for body armor, and I'm hoping that if the FD is willing to adopt this program, DHS will be willing to help fund it.

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    Check this as a possibility


    http://www.vestforlife.com


    Also if there is a firehouse sub near you

    They support both fire and police


    http://m.firehousesubs.com/Foundatio...rce=redirector

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    Folks please keep in mind that merely strapping on a bulletproof vest does not make you bulletproof.Please think carefully here! I am quite sure most of you would agree that just because a cop throws on a turnout coat and an SCBA, you don't want him/her to be your backup while doing an interior attack..point being he is not trained for that. Likewise, unless you are a tactical paramedic that has trained with SWAT for performing dynamic entries, engaging active shooter situations and has studied tactical awareness, movement and cover why compound the risk of further casualties? I would also highly suggest that you speak with your risk management people providing your workman's compensation premiums before donning vests and placing your FFs into an active shooter incident. Just my opinion... your's may differ!
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    Agree with your points

    There have also been the non active shooter incident where the ff justs drives up

    But than they would have to wear it on every call

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    Suffice it to say that it is a sad state of affairs that we find our country in, that fireman are getting shot at along with police officers now.
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    That's human beings, like I've been saying in my classes. Scientists think humans are the top animal because we're the only ones that can have rational thoughts. But like all science, the opposite is also true which is that humans are the only animal that has IRRATIONAL thoughts. Meaning anything is possible, at any time. See the recent CA shooting, and that person was apparently irrational for years upon years. And very stuck on doing what he did, so to me it's not just shooter incidents, it's shooters with bombs, booby traps, etc, etc. Any terrorism related event whether a shooting or otherwise needs the folks that are trained in those responses to clear the scenes prior to engagement by unarmed responders. Even though it was short between the time I spent in the military and nearly 20yrs in the fire service I think I've got the right mindset to be a SWAT EMT/Medic but that same training & experience says I ought to be armed if I'm going into a combat zone. Hasn't been a combat medic deployed yet without a weapon, and unfortunately these nutcases think they're at war with everyone. None of what they're doing makes sense, so pulling the trigger on anyone isn't a second thought for them. Only reason the BPV for Fire/EMS came up is because some of these nutcases can make long shots, but to me that says distance is our friend. Have the vest but stay the hell back until the threat is neutralized. If there's a victim down within bullet range that you need the BPV, they can pop the victim again during the rescue attempt as easily as they'll pop the rescuer. Snipers in WW2 and other conflicts used those tactics to draw out troops and keep knocking off enemy soldiers, stuff is on TV all the time and that's what these nuts watch or hit the internet to get their plans.

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    Kurt,

    Our training for active shooter incidents has been about a two year process, and continues to develop today. We have 550 firefighters and 850 cops in our jurisdiction, and every one of them have been through joint table-top training exercises, and we continue to provide real-time scenario-based training at one of our local community college campuses.

    None of our personnel are under some false expectation that we're "protected" with the ballistic vests, but we are provided an additional level of protection and identification (along with other measures that our specific departments have adopted).

    We've brought in both fire service and tactical EMS subject matter experts on this, including those who've been the IC's or EMS Branch Chiefs for some of the nations most well-known active shooter incidents so we could learn what went right/wrong, what they will do next time, new policies/procedures/equipment that came out of the their experiences, and the like. One of the resounding things that came to light on many of these incidents was that either intentionally or unintentionally, EMS was being provided to the victims while the scene was still warm or hot - and this was before these departments had adopted formal procedures on handling these incidents.

    I don't expect everyone to agree with the approach that our department has taken on this (heck, we have some of our own members that don't like the idea), but we haven't jumped into this arena without a lot of thought and research across the board along with a lot of collaborative effort between fire and law enforcement.

    As always, your milage my vary.
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    You are preaching to the choir here guy. You have two big mountains to climb here though:

    1.) Current bulletproof vests are not , to my knowledge, fire resistant enough to be worn in an active fire so until they are, NFPA is not going to approve them. Unless they have an official approval form NFPA as PPE, you are not likely to see them eligible in the AFG

    2.) You need to be preaching this to your 7 sister organizations that influence NFPA and AFG rules an regulations.
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    My brother in law was murdered in afghanistan by an afghan security officer while wearing a full plate body armor vest.
    The perp just shot him in the side so the bullets entered between the plates.
    DO not expect body armor to save your *** when their are active shooters present.
    They also don't cover your head so you will be just as dead.

    Body armor is very hot to wear and traps heat in , so many folks will not want to wear them, especially in the summer.

    one of the first entries in the terrorist handbook is to set off small charge and wait till all the responders show up to set off the big one.
    Don't believe me:: ask the Israeli's.
    Last edited by islandfire03; 05-27-2014 at 08:33 PM.
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    My understanding is after FEMA/US Fire Administration took their stance on "Active Shooter Incidents" and Fire/EMS involvement the AFG program is reviewing allowing vests into the program in 2014. The argument/debate was/is its hard for the fed's to say we (Fire and EMS) should be involved in and training on active shooter events and not provide the funding thru AFG for the equipment.
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    In the Bay Area we are currently working on delivering a "Unified Response To Violent Incidents" training that addresses the Rescue Task Force concept and addresses Fire Resources active within a Warm Zone with Law Enforcement Force Protection.

    While there are many cultural issues surrounding the use of Fire Resources in this manner, I can say without a doubt that it is the way things are going in light of recent events. As we say in the training, Law Enforcement stops the killing, Fire stops the dying by removing victims rapidly to a Casualty Collection Point.

    Along with this training, my understanding is that there is some HS monies available for Body Armor and Ballistic Blankets in particular to support this type of mission. Feel free to contact me directly if you're in CA and I can help point you to the right people.

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    just another way to waste limited grant funding $$$ on something that will never get used.
    Will sit in a locker somewhere until the folks that got it retire and then get thrown out.

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    Island Fire, the Isla Vista incident occurred about twenty minutes from here. The FD responding did not have the right body armor and went without. Once is enough for us.

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